Has CoP Destroyed Asada?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Oh, my music appreciation teacher in grammar school would hate me calling it a concerto It is a Prelude in C Sharp Minor and composed by Rachmananoff.

I think as I am not sure that it is a prelude to an actual funeral. Whose? I do not know. Wikipedia does not give any background to this.

The point, however, is that I do not think Mao should use it. I liked very much that Hungarian number she did at 2007 Worlds, JMO

 

[Blades of Passion]

Now we can discuss this in a more constructive way. You said that Mao did not do 3S because 2A with GOE+1 is as good as 3S and so she did not need it in most cases. But I would say it is not quite right. Pointwise, your argument would make sense only if Mao does not get any positive GOE with her salchow. But then it means her 3S is worse than, say, Yu-Na's because her 3S usually gets positive GOE. This is contradictory to your claim that Mao's 3S is as good as Yu-Na's.

Perhaps Yu-Na's 3S gets +GOE regularly, but I would give most of her attempts at it a +0. She can do a 3S worthy of a +1, although I've never seen better than that from her (whereas her Toepick jumps are consistently worthy of +2). I would actually give her 3S from the recent TEB competition a +1...I wonder if she did it better there because it was earlier in the program and she was less tired (also the entrance wasn't as difficult as it was in last year's program). Probably so.

Mao has done 3s worthy of a +1 GOE (that's also probably the best GOE she would deserve for it), but she can also do a Double Axel that will regularly get +2.

Also there is another point to consider. Mao is doing 3T this season but why not 3S which has higher base point? According to your theory, she is an edge jumper and would consider 3S easier than 3T. In other words, she has enough motivation to do 3S this season. So why not getting higher point with easier element?

Mao's jump layout doesn't make any sense these days, so I can't really comment on that. I imagine the 3T is easier for her than the 3S, though. She is an edge jumper, but that's not a be-all, end-all classification. I qualify her as an edge jumper because her Axel and Loop are her best jumps (and, also, her technique on the Lutz and Flip has a bit of an edge-like quality...she doesn't completely rely on vaulting straight off the toepick). The 3T is not a highly difficult jump for any top competitor, so she probably feels more comfortable with it.

It could be a fair assessment that Mao's 3S is her worst jump. Depends on how severe of a penalty you consider change the edge on the Lutz, which is a jump she used to do consistently and with good quality otherwise.

In any case, I would say Mao is a capable jumper when it comes to all of the Triples. Or at least, she used to be.

 

[Snow Castle]

When I was reading your writing, I was very angry,
because I would like to see again a beautiful butterfly in a calm fresh-water lake.

As long as there are many fans just like you,
Mao will never know who she is, where she is, what weak-points she has.

Fans just like you have made her a state of collapse,
will eventually destoy completely Mao Asada you love so much.

Don't worry. It is said that figurefan11(satorare, tagmat, fiercemao, tiara, chopin...whatever.You name it.) is never a Mao fan. Sure, this person is a huge hater of Korea and Yuna, but at the same time all she/he has been trying desperately hard to do is to draw huge hatred toward Mao and Mao fans, she/he is always waiting for reaction and posts like yours and looks like she/he really enjoys them. It is also said that this person is not even a Japanese. The truth is that this person hates both Yuna and Mao so much. I'm sure she/he will appear again and again changing her/his names one after another.

 

[antmanb]

Don't worry. It is said that figurefan11(satorare, tagmat, fiercemao, tiara, chopin...whatever.You name it.) is never a Mao fan. Sure, this person is a huge hater of Korea and Yuna, but at the same time all she/he has been trying desperately hard to do is to draw huge hatred toward Mao and Mao fans, she/he is always waiting for reaction and posts like yours and looks like she/he really enjoys them. It is also said that this person is not even a Japanese. The truth is that this person hates both Yuna and Mao so much. I'm sure she/he will appear again and again changing her/his names one after another.

Given that this is your first and only post, can we also assume that you are former banned Yuna bot too i wonder....

Ant

 

[Tango_D_R]

Don't worry. It is said that figurefan11(satorare, tagmat, fiercemao, tiara, chopin...whatever.You name it.) is never a Mao fan. Sure, this person is a huge hater of Korea and Yuna, but at the same time all she/he has been trying desperately hard to do is to draw huge hatred toward Mao and Mao fans, she/he is always waiting for reaction and posts like yours and looks like she/he really enjoys them. It is also said that this person is not even a Japanese. The truth is that this person hates both Yuna and Mao so much. I'm sure she/he will appear again and again changing her/his names one after another.

I agree, there are indeed these kinds of people lurking around forums to forums from what I've noticed, working up against both Kim's and Mao's side. However, what I've worried about the recent poster was that I had this feeling he/she was genuinely believing in what he wrote about them. Ironically, that was very funny for me. The poster looked so confident and showing 'yeah, I've nailed it logically!' kind of attitude..that was just hilarious for me
I hope for Mao's sake that he/she is NOT her fan. Most likely..just another loser who enjoys the heat between both fans so don't worry about it too much, we can pretty much tell the difference

 

[steyn]

Perhaps Yu-Na's 3S gets +GOE regularly, but I would give most of her attempts at it a +0. She can do a 3S worthy of a +1, although I've never seen better than that from her (whereas her Toepick jumps are consistently worthy of +2). I would actually give her 3S from the recent TEB competition a +1...I wonder if she did it better there because it was earlier in the program and she was less tired (also the entrance wasn't as difficult as it was in last year's program). Probably so.

Mao has done 3s worthy of a +1 GOE (that's also probably the best GOE she would deserve for it), but she can also do a Double Axel that will regularly get +2.

Now, this is your opinion without any objective evidence. You can say your opinion freely of course, but please don't try to support it with statistics or GOEs because they are contradictory to your assertion.

I believe you are expressing your opinion based on your expertise (I read somewhere that you are a skater) but at least you should understand that they are not quite consistent with what really happened (statistics) and judges' official verdict (GOE). Then we can agree to disagree.

Mao's jump layout doesn't make any sense these days, so I can't really comment on that.

I don't think that they are stupid enough not to calculate the points. The only "rational" explanation that makes sense to me is that Mao's 3T is better than 3S.

I imagine the 3T is easier for her than the 3S, though. She is an edge jumper, but that's not a be-all, end-all classification. I qualify her as an edge jumper because her Axel and Loop are her best jumps (and, also, her technique on the Lutz and Flip has a bit of an edge-like quality...she doesn't completely rely on vaulting straight off the toepick). The 3T is not a highly difficult jump for any top competitor, so she probably feels more comfortable with it.

I agree with you here. I agree that she is a good edge jumper in general and I admire her Axel and Loop. However, it does not necessarily mean that her 3S is automatically excellent. So let us not overclassify her talent but accept the fact itself. Even if she is good in edge jumps in general, she still has some weak points as well.

It could be a fair assessment that Mao's 3S is her worst jump. Depends on how severe of a penalty you consider change the edge on the Lutz, which is a jump she used to do consistently and with good quality otherwise.

In any case, I would say Mao is a capable jumper when it comes to all of the Triples. Or at least, she used to be.

I agree. I believe she is one of the most talented jumpers in history. But, again, it does not gaurantee her 3S should be automatically excellent.

As for Yu-Na, I agree that she is better in toe jumps and that her salchow is not as spectacular as, say, her Lutz. Neverthless, we cannot simply deduce that her 3S should not be better than Mao's. At least objective evidences say differently, although you don't want to agree.

 

[Bennett]

I love Yuka Sato's, Shizuka's, and Jeff's Salcow. Although both Mao and Yuna are excellent jumpers, I haven't particularly been wow-ed by their Salcows. There are many other skaters whose Salcow is a thing of beauty.

 

[prettykeys]

Is Mao's 3salchow worse than YuNa's?

I love Yuka Sato's, Shizuka's, and Jeff's Salcow. Although both Mao and Yuna are excellent jumpers, I haven't particularly been wow-ed by their Salcows. There are many other skaters whose Salcow is a thing of beauty.

Yeah, I don't think either Mao or YuNa are crazy about the 3salchow. It doesn't really matter, as they both have other jumps that are great.

To be honest, steyn, you don't really sound objective to me. I even forgot what this mini-debate was about, and found it on page 5. (beka and you seem to want to argue that YuNa's 3salchow is stronger than Mao's, and BoP's opinion is that it's not--they're about the same.)

I don't think that they are stupid enough not to calculate the points. The only "rational" explanation that makes sense to me is that Mao's 3T is better than 3S.

So what? Maybe Mao doesn't like the 3S as much as she likes the 3T. That has nothing to do with whether her 3S is worse than YuNa's. YuNa also prefers the 3T to the 3S, which is why YuNa repeats the 3T rather than the 3S.

I agree with you here. I agree that [Mao] is a good edge jumper in general and I admire her Axel and Loop. However, it does not necessarily mean that her 3S is automatically excellent. So let us not overclassify her talent but accept the fact itself. Even if she is good in edge jumps in general, she still has some weak points as well.

No one was arguing against these points...

As for Yu-Na, I agree that she is better in toe jumps and that her salchow is not as spectacular as, say, her Lutz. Neverthless, we cannot simply deduce that her 3S should not be better than Mao's. At least objective evidences say differently, although you don't want to agree.

Objective evidence tells me that the 3salchow is neither Mao nor YuNa's favourite and it's very hard to say whose is better; both are fairly competent at it.

YuNa's 6-triple layout is this: 2x3Lz, 2x3T, 1x3F, 1x3S (her 2nd-least favourite)

Mao's 6-triple layout is this: 2x3A (yikes), 2x3F, 1x3Lo, 1x3T (presumably because she gets hit with the 'e' on her Lutz, and she prefers the Toe over the Salchow.)

An alternative Mao 6-triple layout could be 1x3A, 2x3F, 2x3Lo, and 1x3T.

Either way, YuNa actually requires the 3salchow more than Mao does (it's that or the 3Lo, which may be her worst), so that explains why she does it more. Mao replaces her 3salchow with the 3Axel...

Why does Mao do the Toe over the Salchow? Maybe the Toe is much easier for her to do, and she would rather spend precious practice time and energy working on her 3Axel.

This seems the most logical to me.

 

[steyn]

^
Prettykeys, I think I already answered in my previous posts. I don't want to repeat it again but want to make it clear that there is an important difference between someone's opinion and the way of reasoning, as I emphasized several times.

Sorry for the off-topic posts and I hope that this post is my last one on this issue.

 

[prettykeys]

^
Prettykeys, I think I already answered in my previous posts.

There was no question to answer in my post...

 

[bekalc]

So what? Maybe Mao doesn't like the 3S as much as she likes the 3T. That has nothing to do with whether her 3S is worse than YuNa's. YuNa also prefers the 3T to the 3S, which is why YuNa repeats the 3T rather than the 3S.

Yu-na repeats the 3toe twice because doing a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe allows her to fit in an extra double axel. She scores more points that way. She can't do that with the 3salchow, so why would she use it again?

I agree that Kim isn't really a great salchow jumper. But I don't think that her 3salchow can be compared to Mao's because Yu-na does that jump fairly consistently in competition. She also does it in her exhibitions which suggests that she's fairly confident with that particular jump.

As for Mao, you cannot compare the two situations. Its pretty clear that Mao has issues with that jump. The few times shes done it, its been in consistent. To be frank, Mao could easily replace her double axel with her 3salchow. After all she's already doing 2 triple axels so she fullfills the double axel requirements. The 3salchow is also a point more. The fact that Mao doesn't, I think more than suggests that there are some issues there.

We will see if she ever starts doing a 3flip/3toe or a double axel/3toe if she does a 3sal or a double axel in place of the sole 3toe jumping pass.

Personally I don't mind so much that Mao is missing a 3sal. I'm just annoyed that people are seriously saying Mao has a better or equal 3sal to Kim's. That's just not logical or based on facts. Kim has a secure 3sal that she does regularly in programs and exhibitions. We rarely see Mao perform the 3sal (other than practices).

 

[prettykeys]

Ah OK, beka.

I just prefer to say that Mao has a decent 3salchow we don't often see--the same way I like to say that YuNa has a decent 3loop we don't often see.

 

[dlgpffps]

First of all, I'd just like to say that the title of this thread "Has CoP destroyed Asada?" is simply unnecessary. Asada has not been destroyed. True, she has performed poorly in recent competitions, but let's not forget her past performances and amazing potential. She is, after all, the "Mighy Mao." She is not so weak as to become "destroyed" in just a year. Remember, she is the only skater who was able to beat "gold standard" Kim last year at the GPF by landing two 3As in her LP (the first woman to have done that). She's also the 2008 World Champion and the 2nd lady skater to break the 200 mark.

All athletes have their ups and downs; it's probably the magnitude of Mao's "fall" that's scaring figure skating fans into questioning her ability. I heard that she was depressed after the GPF because the Japanese media claimed that she won only because Kim made mistakes, not because of her actual performance. All the issues mentioned thus far (TAT, music choice, absence of tech coach, pressure, 3A, etc.) all seem to contribute to Mao's recent slump, so I'm not sure if Mao will be able to get out of it in time for the Olympic Games (there are too many issues to be resolved). I do, however, have no doubt that she will eventually emerge happy and successful.

I hate seeing her despondent and shocked after bad performances. I really would love to see her smile after she's performed a program that can satisfy her.

 

[Nadia01]

I heard that she was depressed after the GPF because the Japanese media claimed that she won only because Kim made mistakes, not because of her actual performance.

I think it's problematic b/c Yuna had a great season last yr, and the media felt that (and you know there are those who are very critical) Mao may never be able to beat Yuna so long as Yuna remains healthy. (Yuna said she was feeling a little sick during GPF.)

Since Mao is surrounded by the media in Japan, I think comments like that really got to her, esp. when she finished off podium in L.A. Mao does not seem to enjoy skating as much based on my observations in France & Russia, and I hope she can overcome whatever that's bugging her. I'd love to see her skate well in Vancouver.

 

[jan]

Poor jumping technique has destroyed Mao and not COP. Those with good basic jump technique are now getting credit for their years of correcting technical flaws/ Good techique to begin with. Ex Joannie Rochette's Lutz. She still has time as she has other amazing qualities.

 

[katakwan]

First of all, I'd just like to say that the title of this thread "Has CoP destroyed Asada?" is simply unnecessary. .

I agree with you.
The great skater is not affected or destroyed by any code.

 

[janetfan]

I agree with you.
The great skater is not affected or destroyed by any code.

Actually I would like to agree with you.
But the point of the topic was if the recent rule changes and putting jumps under such tight scrutiny has hurt Mao.

I believe this is true. I don't think Mao has lost much and think her skating is still quite beautiful. But she was able to perform certain jumps for 5 or 6 years and win many medals. Now she is being told her jumps are full of flaws.

I think anybody who has watched her skate this season can see she has been effected by such strict edge and UR calls.

As a fan I still prefer Mao over most of today's Lady skaters. For me, a flutz or occassional UR does not take away from the extraordinary beauty of Mao's skating (and many of the other Ladies).

I see such strict calls and "point driven skating" taking away from much of what I enjoy about figure skating. The Free (LP) program does not look or feel very free these days, but only like a longer version of the technical (SP) program.

But many point out that Yuna and Joannie can do it. So what, that is only two skaters from the entire Ladies field. And I am not as sure about Joannie and Yuna after COC and SA. :yes:

 

[katakwan]

Actually I would like to agree with you.
But the point of the topic was if the recent rule changes and putting jumps under such tight scrutiny has hurt Mao.

I believe this is true. I don't think Mao has lost much and think her skating is still quite beautiful. But she was able to perform certain jumps for 5 or 6 years and win many medals. Now she is being told her jumps are full of flaws.

I think anybody who has watched her skate this season can see she has been effected by such strict edge and UR calls.

As a fan I still prefer Mao over most of today's Lady skaters. For me, a flutz or occassional UR does not take away from the extraordinary beauty of Mao's skating (and many of the other Ladies).

I see such strict calls and "point driven skating" taking away from much of what I enjoy about figure skating. The Free (LP) program does not look or feel very free these days, but only like a longer version of the technical (SP) program.

But many point out that Yuna and Joannie can do it. So what, that is only two skaters from the entire Ladies field. And I am not as sure about Joannie and Yuna after COC and SA. :yes:

I wonder the point of the topic is that Mao's skill is not so good
or her jumps are full of faults and weakness??????????

2009/2010 season including JGP-not the end though,
the number of skaters' points higher than Mao's total scores(150.28) is 17.
http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/sb2009-10/sbtslto.htm

So why would people make this unnecessary thread ?
Would People just wanna say ONLY MAO is ruled by CoP?
or 17 (including 2 juniors) skaters are greater than MAO ?

 

[koongpa]

I think anybody who has watched her skate this season can see she has been effected by such strict edge and UR calls.

I believe that Mao's UR issue is not a recent problem. Her 3-3 was already getting downgraded from 07-08 season. I was watching Mao's 3-3s from her junior years and thought they were much cleaner back then in terms of air position and rotation. It sort of points out that while the rules have changed, the quality her jumps has changed as well.

For me, a flutz or occassional UR does not take away from the extraordinary beauty of Mao's skating (and many of the other Ladies).

I agree with you. Mao's skating has this amazing fluid quality and she's very beautiful to watch. But does that mean Yu-na's lutz and Mao's flutz should be getting the same points? Beautiful skating is one thing, and being judged is another thing.

If the rules didn't go too strict, I think the same thing would have hurt Yu-na because then she wouldn't have been rewarded for her exceptional technicality.
And isn't Mao being held up with the PCS even if she performs a terrible program? I think she's more than being advantaged for her beautiful skating skills.

Mao said that she is trying to do 3As because she wants to challenge herself for greater technicality, NOT because CoP is destryoing all her other jumps and she just has no other choice. If what she said was true, Mao would end up doing the same thing under any judging system.

I see such strict calls and "point driven skating" taking away from much of what I enjoy about figure skating.

And about that CoP turning away fans, I have to say this one thing. So let's say CoP is revised somehow to be as fair as it could ever get. Do you really think then the public will go "OMG figure skating is so fair now I'm going to watch it?" Heck no. The bigger problem is lack of talent. I don't see FS becoming popular just because it has the most fair judging system ever.

The word "points driven skating" does bother me, because after all figure skating is a sport, and numbers will always be used no matter what. It's not like CoP is the "points driven skating" and then 6.0 is the "artistry driven skating." Even artistry will always be judged with points. You know, there's always the professional skating and ice shows..

If you are talented, you will succeed under whatever judging system. I mean success as both winning and giving great performance. Mao seems to be having a slump under CoP, and she would have it under any other judging system just as well.

But many point out that Yuna and Joannie can do it. So what, that is only two skaters from the entire Ladies field.

Yes, there will always be a winner and a loser. Should everyone in the entire ladied field take turns receiving gold medals? I don't think so, it's a competition after all.

 

[janetfan]

It sort of points out that while the rules have changed, the quality her jumps has changed as well.

Mao said that she is trying to do 3As because she wants to challenge herself for greater technicality,


The bigger problem is lack of talent. I don't see FS becoming popular just because it has the most fair judging system ever.

The word "points driven skating" does bother me, because after all figure skating is a sport, and numbers will always be used no matter what. It's not like CoP is the "points driven skating" and then 6.0 is the "artistry driven skating." Even artistry will always be judged with points.

Mao seems to be having a slump under CoP, and she would have it under any other judging system just as well.



Yes, there will always be a winner and a loser. Should everyone in the entire ladied field take turns receiving gold medals? I don't think so, it's a competition after all.

Thanks for a well thought out reply. I can agree with your pov and all of what you say sounds true to me. But I think some of this could fall into a gray area.

We just saw Yuna succumb to pressure at SA. I think Yuna's pressure is a little different than Mao's. Yuna missed jumps and she said she was feeling alot of pressure.
Mao is also missing jumps this season and we all know confidence is important for these skaters when they are competing.
Mao appears to be feeling pressure from the most recent rule changes and typically that effects a skater's execution.

Mao may certainly be doing 3A's "to challenge herself." Mao also has no choice if she wants to get a high score because she is getting penalized more heavily than she did in the past on her other jumps and 3x3's.

The lack of talent may be true - but I think the talent is about the same or even better than it was in the past.
It might also be true that most of the Ladies are having trouble competing under current CoP. That is a possibilty - just as skater's also had troubles competing under 6.0.

I agree with your comments about the "points driven skating." Certainly 6.0 had points too. But I notice a distinct difference in the approach - and today's choreographers have no choice but to design programs based on how points are awarded under CoP. I am not the only poster at GS who thinks some creativity and originality - a certain feeling of freedom has been lost in the LP.

In fact, the only difference I see between the SP and LP under CoP is that the LP is longer. Think of Lambiel's 6.0 spins or Yagudin's steps from "Winter."
Both were beautiful but would be pretty much worthless in a CoP competition.
Not to mention Michelle's arabesque spiral that actually flowed so beautifully with the music.

Anyway, like I said, alot of this is subjective. I do think CoP has many improvements over 6.0 and accept that it is here to stay.

I never said anything about a "winner and a loser."
I suggested skating needs skater's with Mao's star power and that it would be a loss for the skating world if she left early.