- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Evan is 10x better than Johnny, there is no rivalry. His real competition is Abbott, who is arguably the best male skater in the US. Johnny is just expressive, he doesn't attempt a quad.
Lysacek's triple Axel
- Thread starter Mathman
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Evan is 10x better than Johnny, there is no rivalry. His real competition is Abbott, who is arguably the best male skater in the US. Johnny is just expressive, he doesn't attempt a quad.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Actually, the "slow part" is something I miss in CoP programs. It gave a pace to the program and allowed the audience as well as the skater to catch his breath.
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- Joined
- Jun 3, 2008
when i was writing this I was thinking skaters as round balls(dont know why), since I read the cylinder analysis I m not so sure there is substance to what i said
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Oh, I miss it, too, but I think with time we may see it return.
Tell that to the American (and USFSA) media. It's still all about Evan and Johnny, which in some ways it should be. Johnny's the better skater, IMHO, but Evan is the better competitor. Can't really debate who's better at performance because they have different styles... one is extroverted in his approach, one introverted. Abbott is no better or worse than either one, but, like Johnny, is hit or miss in competition.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
They are all obviously very good, but has Johnny ever done a quad? I know skating is not all about jumps, but Johnny doesn't do a 4-3 and often misses his 3a as well, it almost seems like he is not challenging himself. I also find Lysacek's general skating better than Weir's, and I would assume the judges agree as Evan gets higher PCS scores. Abbott is probably the best performer though, for a guy he does a great job of relating to the music.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Johnny two footed the quad at nationals in 2008, and I thought it looked pretty dang good even with it. And I was cheering for Evan (to be honest after Johnny stood up on the quad I thought it was his nationals... judges tied the two men, and I'm sorry but there was no way it was that close. I was there.)
I have become more defensive of Johnny as of late, even though I am not a fan of his. I used to rag on him something fierce when he was at the peak of his skating... sadly something happened after 2006 and he's really been struggling. Hard to kick a guy when he's down, for me.
Evan, while a great skater (and someone I crush on big time and prefer in most ways) is not unbeatable. And he's not the best skater. He is fast, he is powerful, and he muscles through everything. His footwork brings the house down. His basic skating skills don't shout out as much as the big tricks and footwork do. He shows potential in that in a few of his exhibitions, and I wish he'd skate like that all the time, but his competitive programs work for what they're made for doing - winning.
I'm not knocking Evan. He's a great skater, great guy, but he's become predictable... which is sad to see... his formula is the same as Michelle Kwan's... which is why I never got on her bandwagon...
I have become more defensive of Johnny as of late, even though I am not a fan of his. I used to rag on him something fierce when he was at the peak of his skating... sadly something happened after 2006 and he's really been struggling. Hard to kick a guy when he's down, for me.
Evan, while a great skater (and someone I crush on big time and prefer in most ways) is not unbeatable. And he's not the best skater. He is fast, he is powerful, and he muscles through everything. His footwork brings the house down. His basic skating skills don't shout out as much as the big tricks and footwork do. He shows potential in that in a few of his exhibitions, and I wish he'd skate like that all the time, but his competitive programs work for what they're made for doing - winning.
I'm not knocking Evan. He's a great skater, great guy, but he's become predictable... which is sad to see... his formula is the same as Michelle Kwan's... which is why I never got on her bandwagon...
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
I agree about Evan, and that's why I'm saying that Jeremy is actually probably the best US men's skater competing now, he is just still developing into a better more mature skater, even though all the hype is on Evan and Johnny. If we were going to compare to female skaters, I'd say that Evan is like Kimmie at her prime, Johnny like Alissa, and Jeremy like Mirai. But that's just how I see it
Still, seeing Boitano's program and remembering the much better version from Calgary, I have to admit that it does give some validity to the Jouberts out there that gripe about quadless programs. Boitano's FS was state of the art technically in 88 and firmly established the necessity of two 3a's for men. It would have also won the Olys in Albertville or Lillehammer. It held up quality wise for so long and then the Quad era came along and set a new bar jump-wise. Still at the same time spins and footwork became more and more neglected. Boitano's footwork was never the best for example.
Now with CoP's I like to think to think of it as a long-term retooling effort where spins and footwork are getting priority now and jumps will be reemphasized later without a loss of quality in the other elements. (At least that's my optimistic outlook). The choreographic quality of the average program is certainly better now than four years ago in most disciplines. I agree that they are no longer the slow, empty, plodding technical displays they were when the new system was introduced. Hopefully this is a harbinger of greater comfort with the CoP that will eventually lead to more difficult jumps being included again, if skaters can ever re-learn how to fully rotate everything...
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Jeremy is either a slow grower, or he's no better or worse than Johnny IMHO. The difference is Johnny had a lot of natural talent and he rode out on it far too long. Jeremy's had to work harder to get to the top... will he stay there is the big question. Johnny has learned -possibly too late- that he can't just let himself plateau.
Of the three my money's on Evan to bring it... Johnny and Jeremy are a flip of the coin... and it wouldn't surprise me if Bradly, Carriere or a host of other men were able to creep in and take a spot away from them.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Now that's really interesting because i've never seen that before and i think that is much better than Browning's attempt which he clearly turns out of. Boitano was all the way round on one foot and actually did a single loop on the end of it, whether it was a save or not i think it was cleaner (technically in combination!) than Brownings.
Ant
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Does anyone else find Johnny annoying? He's like a male diva and that's part of the reason I'm not a huge fan of his skating, he seems kinda conceited on the ice.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Browning skated first so his was the first ratified (he over rotated, which made the three turn the only way to save teh landing. he, too, thought it wouldn't be counted). Boitano's was two footed (Jumpin Joe had tried one a few seasons prior but it was also two footed which meant it wouldn't be counted)
Boitano tried one IIRC earlier in either that season of the season prior and fell on his keester, so they were in a pretty tight race as to who was going to land it first.
Here's Sabovcik's best competitive quad attempt. (despite Hamiltion's enthusiastic reaction, the ISU did not ratify it because it was two-footed, the curse of many of the best early quad attempts).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2odYqB6azY
Also, here is video of Orser trying them in practice in an almost head to head skate off with Sabovcik.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2IaPXg6DaE
84-88 really was a revolutionary era in skating for jumps. Before 84, the triple axel was still a rarity in most top men's programs and quads were just a pipe dream for most. Sort of like the dramatic changes in women's jumping after 1976 and 1988.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2odYqB6azY
Also, here is video of Orser trying them in practice in an almost head to head skate off with Sabovcik.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2IaPXg6DaE
84-88 really was a revolutionary era in skating for jumps. Before 84, the triple axel was still a rarity in most top men's programs and quads were just a pipe dream for most. Sort of like the dramatic changes in women's jumping after 1976 and 1988.
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^^ I enjoy watching those oldies and goodies :thumbsup:. Scott didn't change too much in these years, other than some hair loss. I didn't know that Orser also tried quad.
Thanks again, I'm very impressed with his first quad attempt. Is Lisa-Marie Allen the tallest single female skater ever in history?
And thanks silverlake22 for the explanation. I've learnt so much in this thread.
Are those teleconferences mandatory or optional? Did Frank turned it down for his students so that they can focus on their training? I remember Evan cancelled his in 2008 due to time confilct with his training. I hope he'll change his costume for the FS. Anyways, can't wait to see him again next week. 
I didn't know that Orser also tried quad. Thanks again, I'm very impressed with his first quad attempt. Is Lisa-Marie Allen the tallest single female skater ever in history?
And thanks silverlake22 for the explanation. I've learnt so much in this thread.
Are those teleconferences mandatory or optional? Did Frank turned it down for his students so that they can focus on their training? I remember Evan cancelled his in 2008 due to time confilct with his training. I hope he'll change his costume for the FS. Anyways, can't wait to see him again next week. 
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
Define "skater"
.I have met at least one 6-foot-tall woman who had been a senior-level figure skater, but not at the world level and I don't know if she ever did triple jumps; she was more of a school figures specialist.
In the days before triples, height would not have been such a liability. But we don't know the heights of every woman who competed in the early and mid 20th century.
Allen's career took place when triples were first becoming important for women. She could get away with only one or two, but the skaters she lost to often did more.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
NO!! But I'm beginning to find your comments annoying.
. Also, about Lisa Marie Allen, in her day ladies weren't doing as difficult jumps as they are today.Also, has Evan ever had a solid quad or 4-3? I know Joubert and Verner are significantly shorter than him but they are also sturdier and probably weigh more, and both have lovely quads.
I'm pretty sure Rory Flack Burghart is taller than Lisa Marie Allen.
Evan has landed quads in competition. The most recent one was at 2009 4CC in the FS.
He did a flawed 4t-2t at 2007 worlds (-1 GOE) and a flawed 4t-3t at 2006 Worlds.
He did a perfectly clean 4t-3t at 2007 Nationals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8zJXcviX0I
Evan has landed quads in competition. The most recent one was at 2009 4CC in the FS.
He did a flawed 4t-2t at 2007 worlds (-1 GOE) and a flawed 4t-3t at 2006 Worlds.
He did a perfectly clean 4t-3t at 2007 Nationals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8zJXcviX0I
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
Lysacek has never really had a consistent quad, though, and certainly not a consistent 4-3. At this point his not putting one in the programs strikes me as having more to do with that lack of consistency than with last year's foot injury.
The tallest skater I can think of with a more consistent quad is Alban Preaubert. He's 6' tall, though it's sometimes hard to tell because of his posture. Tomas Verner is listed at 5'11 (1.80m) by the ISU but according to his website, he's 5'10''/1.78.
