Is Rachael Flatt the (emotional) underdog?

[R.D.]

Rachel is definitely an underdog. But I don't think she is one that really capture people's hearts, mostly because her skating is not that beautiful to watch. She needs some refinement to her skating or else it just looks amateur no matter how solid her jumps are. Also, unlike Shawn Johnson, I don't see Rachel having the bubbly and sweet personality (that's more Mirai!). She just seems like an average teenager who works really hard. I guess it's because she is just too "normal" in her skating and personality that she just doesn't stand out.

Well, I think she does have that giggly persona but to me it seems more contrived- as opposed to Shawn, who seems to be like that by nature...I dunno *shrug*

 

[Tonichelle]

to me, Rachel has an almost "too choreographed" element to her skating, which gets me more excited for the choreography than the skater... her SP is brilliant, not because of who or how it's skated... but because the choreography is pretty dang neat...

she said in her fluff piece that it suits her personality, but I don't see tha tpersonality until she's talking in the fluff. it's not there -for me - in the program on the ice... and it makes me wonder how another skater would do it [better].

do I wish her ill will? certainly not. She's a great skater/competitor. But emotional connection from me to her isn't there. I wasn't overly impressed when she hit the scene as a novice (was more on the Caroline Zhang bandwagon at that point... neither girl has really lived up to their hype - for me - as a senior... yet.) Once upon a time I'd have probably been all over her - back in my Kerrigan/Harding days... she reminds me of both - but not so much now...

SP is cute, though.

 

[Layfan]

Oh, is that what the question is? Sorry.

OK, in that case, naw, she's fine. Who doesn't love Rachael? Look at all the people who were complaining last year when the judges awarded the national title to Alissa (an immensely popular skater in her own right) unstead of Rachael. She was the U.S. hero of Worlds last year and of Skate America this year.

Rachael just had one piece of bad luck. Mirai snuck in a stole everybody's heart at Nationals. Stuff happens. By the time the Olympics roll around, that will be water long gone under the bridge. Rachael and Mirai will have their picture together on the cover of Sports Illustrated, the stars and stripes fluttering gallantly in the background, and they will be hailed as our one-two punch going off to Vancouver to slay the dragons for turth, justice and the American Way! :yes:

ITA All this talk about Rachael being perceived as a whole bunch of things, even arrogant (??) is totally bizarre to me. I don't see the great majority of Americans perceiving Rachael or Mirai as anything but likable.To be perfectly honest with all of you guys, I have seen Mirai and Rachael speak exactly once and that was at the press conference after nationals. Mirai was kind of funny. Rachael was poised and well spoken. Who the heck cares? At least for me, I spend zero time trying to decide between the two personalities of two teenage girls. Their skating yes, and I've already said plenty about that.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Good question! I feel that term has been thrown around quite a bit especially with some pitting Mirai vs. Rachael as the artist vs. the athlete.

Artistry in skating, I would suppose, is the ability to make your jumps look like they're part of the performance rather than something you have to do to get points. It's the ability to perform to the music and perform it in a way that gets the audience behind you (which in turns gives you momentum you need to complete the sporting aspect of it.)

I'll think more aebout this.

You are correct, the word Artistry is tossed around far too much among posters and it is not an official description in the CoP scheme of things, AFAIK. There are numerous bullets in the criteria of the PC to explain specifically on what is missing in a skater's craft affecting his performance.

I believe that the only place that “emotion” is rewarded in the CoP point system is in the program comoponent “Performance/Execution.” The judges are supposed to give higher scores to skaters who exhibit the best “physical, emotional, and intellectual (involvement) as they translate the intent of the music and choreography.” Skaters are expected to be “physically committed and sincere in emotion” to get the highest marks in that category.

By the way, people talk about “posture” but the word that is used in the IJS is “carriage.” “Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the core of the body.”

And if that is not enough for the skaters to worry about, in this same component (P&E) skaters are also scored on style and individual Mpossible ease of movement from the core of the body.”

And if that is not enough for the skaters to worry about, in this same component (P&E) skaters are also scored on style and individual personality, and Projection: “The skater (should) radiate energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience.”

If the judges think you did all these things exceptionally well, you get an 8.0 in this program component. Go Rachael.

(A little off-topic, but anyway... )

It's difficult to discuss Artistry since the word conjurs up so many things. Many of those things are covered in the criteria for PC scores.

Also to judge Artistry in one word, a judge (or critic) should have a degree in Fine Arts and lots of publishing credits. Are our FS judges up to this task? Better to use the criteria.

If we stick to the Sport and follow the very subjective performance, we are doing all that we can, imo.

 

[janetfan]

All this talk about Rachael being perceived as a whole bunch of things, even arrogant (??) is totally bizarre to me. I don't see the great majority of Americans perceiving Rachael or Mirai as anything but likable.To be perfectly honest with all of you guys, I have seen Mirai and Rachael speak exactly once and that was at the press conference after nationals. Mirai was kind of funny. Rachael was poised and well spoken. Who the heck cares? At least for me, I spend zero time trying to decide between the two personalities of two teenage girls. Their skating yes, and I've already said plenty about that.

I agree with you. Because I prefer Mirai's skating does not mean I think any less of Rachael as a person. From the little I know about both of them they seem to be very nice and likeable girls.
If Rachael manages to skate her way onto the podium I will be happy for her. There is no way Rachael, or any other skater will ruin my Olympics by making the podium.

The whole concept of "Dream Podiums" is not so bad but the idea of "Nightmare Podiums" says more about the fan than it does about any of the skaters.

The Ladies event has some medal favorites but that does not entitle them to a medal. Yuna, Mao. Miki and Joannie need to keep their nerves in check and skate their best in Vancouver. If they can't there are others like Caro, Akiko, Rachael, Mirai and Laura who may skate their way onto the podium.

To me it doesn't matter too much who medals as long as it is not gifted to them by erratic calls from the tech panel or with pcs that appear to be based soley on reputation as opposed to the performances delivered on Olmypic ice.

I hope I am not expecting too much.

It's difficult to discuss Artistry since the word conjurs up so many things.

This is a good point which I agree with.

I believe trying to describe "artistry" can feel vague at times because it can have such a broad meaning.
It rightfully can mean many things to many people. I have a friend who is a carpenter/woodworker. Not everyone would consider him an artist but I certainly do.

I have another friend who is a painter. Everyone considers her an artist and it is even the defacto definition of her job.

Sometimes when watching skating we will consider theatrical skaters as being artistic. IMO Candeloro was a very theatrical skater but not necessarily such a strong technical skater. Because of this I found his artistry lacking at times. Irina was a very profficient technical skater but many felt her artisitry was lacking.

A typical definition of the word "artistry" can be "something that is superior." Thus I consider my friend the "woodworker" an artistr because I see his skills as being superior. My friend the painter is also an artist but society generally defines anyone who paints pictures as an artist.

I have always thought Irina was an artist on the ice because aspects of her skating exhibited such superior skills. Others will disagree - but is it her artistry they are challenging or perhaps a lack of theatrical expression? This is very subjective and demonstrates how broad the meaning of the word "artistry" can be and how it can mean different things to different people.

I also think Plushenko is an artist on the ice. Whether or not he is my favorite skater does not matter - but there can be no denying how great his jumps are. He excells at jumping and is without doubt superior at this skill. There is an artistry to his jumps that I find impossible to overlook.

I am sure if we were to ask Lambiel if he wishes he had Plushy's jumping artistry his answer would be a resounding "YES!"

Musical interpretation can be hard to define. Like music itself it is very subjective because we all have different taste. Some have said a skater can have superior choreo but bad musicality. For me this is not really possible because the two are closely connected.

In skating it seems the term "artistry" is often confused with the emotions a theatrical skater shares with us. I have felt this many times myself.
I was taken in and bowled over by the the unbridled freedom and joy Mirai showed us at Natls. Yet I would admit that Rachael's wonderful SP was more theatrical than Mirai's SP. For me "theatrical skating" doesn't always do it and I find myself turned off at times by over the top theatrical skating.

I think Rachael's SP was just right - very good choreo with first rate IN and terrific , close to perfect theatrical expressions.

And yet I prefer Mirai's SP. I am not saying it is better - just that it connects better with me.

So what is "artistry" - in many cases it is what we enjoy because we see a superior quality to it. And it will always be subjective to an extent especially when it comes to figure skating.

 

[SeaniBu]

So Joe and Math, where do the aspects of "emotionally charging" or "drawing in an Audience" play in scoring? As some one will watch ballet compared to a musical the crowd energy is different. Clapping hands from an audience who is notably more in "mood with the music" or with an "observer in awe" standpoint can greatly effect ones ideal perspective of "musicality/artistry...." hope I am being clear. Are the Judges well adept to noting the difference and judging fairly based on "how much the roof is raised?"

I must say for me and it does seem consistent with scoring, the face says SO MUCH! Those expressive looks can set and maintain a tone for me and I believe it is rewarded - and should be. The fact blades are tapping the ice perfectly with the beat of the music, skaters are putting the emphasis on "matching the music to the routine" more now and the audience is responding - long gripe of seanibu coming to fruition.:agree:now if they could just figure out that score board for T.V....

This had to be the most fun Nationals I have seen. I know that I get a little flack now and then when I say things like I like the way F.S. is changing (some say no change or it is for the worse) but Racheal, Marai and Ashley as Ault 1 are a good sign of that to me that skaters are asked to provide more than a routine we "observe," but one we are smiling, dancing in the seat and gasping. Thoise 3 skaters have attributes I see in other skaters they are competing against, along with their own - i.o.w. they embody more aspects of F.S. in their time on ice than others. It is the "it" factor i.m.o - like Dorthy, Kristy, Yuka and of course M.K. (Johnny Kurt, Brian and Scott are some I think of as well but sticking to the ladies ) all have. That aspect is becoming more of a necessity in F.S. (again i.m.o) and it should.
This will help the sport popularity and financial stability as well i.m.o.

It would be nice if all could be so "approachable / likable" on and off the ice, but again i.m.o. I think you can see it when they are on the ice.

And it may be a big change to F.S to loose the traditional "necessity" of classic music and "balletic overtones" but I don't mind. The audience has changed. Not just for F.S. but overall.

Rachael was was so obviously in rhythm with the music.

O.K. here I go risky commenting, but if you put the strengths of Kimmie Miesner, Taylor Firth and Katy Taylor into one skater = either a Marai or Rachael would come out. *Just theory and Every lady I named I have extreme regard for.*

B.O.T. of the thread question, ... If she was an underdog in anyway she is not anymore.

 

[Mrs. P]

Oh, is that what the question is? Sorry.

OK, in that case, naw, she's fine. Who doesn't love Rachael? Look at all the people who were complaining last year when the judges awarded the national title to Alissa (an immensely popular skater in her own right) unstead of Rachael. She was the U.S. hero of Worlds last year and of Skate America this year.

Rachael just had one piece of bad luck. Mirai snuck in a stole everybody's heart at Nationals. Stuff happens. By the time the Olympics roll around, that will be water long gone under the bridge. Rachael and Mirai will have their picture together on the cover of Sports Illustrated, the stars and stripes fluttering gallantly in the background, and they will be hailed as our one-two punch going off to Vancouver to slay the dragons for turth, justice and the American Way! :yes:

LOL on the Sports Illustrated cover.
And I hope it's water under the bridge by the Olympics. Can't wait until the Olympics when we see everyone in full display.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So Joe and Math, where do the aspects of "emotionally charging" or "drawing in an Audience" play in scoring? As some one will watch ballet compared to a musical the crowd energy is different. Clapping hands from an audience who is notably more in "mood with the music" or with an "observer in awe" standpoint can greatly effect ones ideal perspective of "musicality/artistry...." hope I am being clear. Are the Judges well adept to noting the difference and judging fairly based on "how much the roof is raised?"

I must say for me and it does seem consistent with scoring, the face says SO MUCH! Those expressive looks can set and maintain a tone for me and I believe it is rewarded - and should be. The fact blades are tapping the ice perfectly with the beat of the music, skaters are putting the emphasis on "matching the music to the routine" more now and the audience is responding - long gripe of seanibu coming to fruition.:agree:now if they could just figure out that score board for T.V....

This had to be the most fun Nationals I have seen. I know that I get a little flack now and then when I say things like I like the way F.S. is changing (some say no change or it is for the worse) but Racheal, Marai and Ashley as Ault 1 are a good sign of that to me that skaters are asked to provide more than a routine we "observe," but one we are smiling, dancing in the seat and gasping. Thoise 3 skaters have attributes I see in other skaters they are competing against, along with their own - i.o.w. they embody more aspects of F.S. in their time on ice than others. It is the "it" factor i.m.o - like Dorthy, Kristy, Yuka and of course M.K. (Johnny Kurt, Brian and Scott are some I think of as well but sticking to the ladies ) all have. That aspect is becoming more of a necessity in F.S. (again i.m.o) and it should.
This will help the sport popularity and financial stability as well i.m.o.

It would be nice if all could be so "approachable / likable" on and off the ice, but again i.m.o. I think you can see it when they are on the ice.

And it may be a big change to F.S to loose the traditional "necessity" of classic music and "balletic overtones" but I don't mind. The audience has changed. Not just for F.S. but overall.

Rachael was was so obviously in rhythm with the music.

O.K. here I go risky commenting, but if you put the strengths of Kimmie Miesner, Ta ylor Firth and Katy Taylor into one skater = either a Marai or Rachael would come out. *Just theory and Every lady I named I have extreme regard for.*
n
B.O.T. of the thread question, ... If she was an underdog in anyway she is not anymore.

Seanibou - Nice to have you back posting.

To answer your question on emotional charging and drawing into an audience, one has to read between the lines of the Interpretation Section of the PC criteria.

It is music that grasps a skater to move over the ice with body language. It doesn't have to be music from a story. With or without a story, a skater can get very much into the music with his/her body telling what's going on emotionally. Faux facial expressions just don't do it for me, although for 15 year old and younger the choreographer should be used. A good example of body language from a skater is Michelle Kwan who often skated to music without story and she could draw one in to her skating with a 3turn. You never turn away when she was skating.

Rachael is musical (as is Michal Brezina) and has to be aware that the mesmerizing music can interfere with executing proper elements. Both Rachael and Michal will learn they have body language in time to do their own choreography.

 

[Layfan]

This is a bit random but I can't remember in which of the Rachael/Mirai threads Scott Hamilton was discussed - probably all of them. Anyway, I just wanted to throw out for what it's worth I don't think Scott Hamilton actually called Mirai the victor. What he said was that "she has made a strong case for gold" which I take to mean that he thought it was close. Another commentator, not sure who it was to be honest, did say Rachael would likely take silver. ooops!! Also, when Mirai's scores were put up Hamilton did quickly point out to viewers that there were "three downgrades." I think I said at one point that I thought Dick Button was the first one to say it but now it seems it was Scott. Only trouble is I bet many casual viewers wouldn't really have understood what Scott said because he didn't say "three of Mirai's triples were downgraded." But still.
Also, taking my thoughts a bit closer to topic, Scott also said as soon as Mirai stopped skating (when he assumed Mirai and Rachael had at least easily won their spots on the team) how wonderful it was that the both U.S. Olympians had skated so very well at nationals. Also, I think he noted that Rachael had a 12 point lead and that she could be even better. Which is quite a compliment. Too bad Scott was so excited about both skates that it all came across a bit muddled.

Anyhow, in case anyone is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtRFJnR3b8w

 

[R.D.]

BTW, it was Tom Hammond that said Rachel will likely win the silver. Can't blame him though because I thought the same thing.

But he also said Cohen would likely be in 4th place, which turned out to be correct

 

[janetfan]

Seems you are right and if Scott was guilty - it was for being too excited by Mirai's performance.
I still like the closeups of Ashley and Rachael waiting for Mirai's score. And Sasha, who is yawning but atleast managed smile and a wave.

 

[R.D.]

Seems you are right and if Scott was guilty of anything it was about being too excited by Mirai's performance.
I still like the closeups of Ashley and Rachael waiting for Mirai's score. And Sasha, who is yawning but atleast managed smile and a wave.

Yeah, I thought they did a good job with the "backstage drama" bits. They didn't go overkill on any specific skater (like I was worried they'd follow Cohen around the rink while ignoring everyone else) and didn't overwhelm the viewers. If I can point out one negative with their coverage it's too many commercials and not enough K&Cs shown. Some of the commercial breaks were especially long too. They showed no K&Cs from the first (3rd) group and didn't even show their warmup actually. But infinitely better than the crap that was their LA Worlds coverage last year. Wow, that was awful. (OTOH, I should point out that Universal Sports' online coverage of that event was GREAT- I don't know what happened)

They almost rivaled ESPN with the opening montage, though- with the cameras and the editing room- I think they took that one straight out of ABC's book

 

[Layfan]

Seems you are right and if Scott was guilty of anything it was about being too excited by Mirai's performance.
I still like the closeups of Ashley and Rachael waiting for Mirai's score. And Sasha, who is yawning but atleast managed smile and a wave.

I loved that too. More and more I think Sasha's comeback turned out to be the best thing for Mirai and Rachael. Even though Sasha's SP wasn't her best it still made a statement that Mirai beat her and that Rachael basically tied her. So many, including me, thought that if Sasha stayed on her feet could beat the American girls. Mirai and Rachael showed they were better than that.

 

[R.D.]

I loved that too. More and more I think Sasha's comeback turned out to be the best thing for Mirai and Rachael. Even though Sasha's SP wasn't her best it still made a statement that Mirai beat her and that Rachael basically tied her. So many, including me, thought that if Sasha stayed on her feet could beat the American girls. Mirai and Rachael showed they were better than that.

Not to mention it took some of the pressure off of them. Notice that even though Nagasu was the leader after the short, Cohen was getting most of the media attention and the majority of the questions at the post-SP press conference. I think Nagasu especially benefited from being under Cohen's shadow after her phenomenal short program.

It will be interesting to see if that changes at the Olympics. With no Cohen or similar "torchbearer" to lead the team, the two of them are on their own and will exclusively share the US spotlight. They will have to skate under the pressure of the nation watching them and counting on them to (hopefully) pull off a medal.

ETA:
As for staying on her feet- well, she definitely held her own. She just didn't have the luxury of ironing out the kinks like the rest of the field did. I mean, all the top contenders have had crappy performances this season (it happens), but they were able to get them out of the way months ago.

 

[janetfan]

LOL on the Sports Illustrated cover.
And I hope it's water under the bridge by the Olympics. Can't wait until the Olympics when we see everyone in full display.

It is hard to know who will live up the their potential at Olympic games, but I see skier Lindsey Vonn as the Sports Illustrated cover girl for the Vancouver games. She may win several medals and is being touted as the American star of the games.

Rachael or Mirai would probably have to win the gold medal to make the SI cover - and I think the odds on that are slim and none.

Imagine if D/W win Gold - is Sports Illustrated ready to featue Dancers on the cover?

 

[Layfan]

Not to mention it took some of the pressure off of them. Notice that even though Nagasu was the leader after the short, Cohen was getting most of the media attention and the majority of the questions at the post-SP press conference. I think Nagasu especially benefited from being under Cohen's shadow after her phenomenal short program.

It will be interesting to see if that changes at the Olympics. With no Cohen or similar "torchbearer" to lead the team, the two of them are on their own and will exclusively share the US spotlight. They will have to skate under the pressure of the nation watching them and counting on them to (hopefully) pull off a medal.

ETA:
As for staying on her feet- well, she definitely held her own.

But that's why I think Mirai WAS a bit under pressure after the SP. Not so much after Sasha bombed maybe. But heading into the FS competition, if Mirai had crumbled or even made a lot of mistakes, Sasha would have had a shot if she had skated clean. Wagner might have squeezed Sasha out but Sasha did have good cushion on Wagner, after all. Anyway, who knows and seems a bit moot anyway. My broader point was that having Sasha in the mix only drew more attention to how good Mirai and Rachael are. Wagner too. From the perspective of close skating watchers such as yourself, maybe Sasha was a long shot. But as you say, all the attention on Sasha ensured that casual viewers would not see it that way. So I think Mirai and Rachael shone even brighter because Sasha was there.

 

[R.D.]

But that's why I think Mirai WAS a bit under pressure after the SP. Not so much after Sasha bombed maybe. But heading into the FS competition, if Mirai had crumbled or even made a lot of mistakes, Sasha would have had a shot if she had skated clean. Wagner might have squeezed Sasha out but Sasha did have good cushion on Wagner, after all. Anyway, who knows and seems a bit moot anyway. My broader point was that having Sasha in the mix only drew more attention to how good Mirai and Rachael are. Wagner too. From the perspective of close skating watchers such as yourself, maybe Sasha was a long shot. But as you say, all the attention on Sasha ensured that casual viewers would not see it that way. So I think Mirai and Rachael shone even brighter because Sasha was there.

You've a point- a good one at that- but I do think that Hamilton & co. tried to make it clear to the viewers that Cohen hadn't skated in 4 years and that it would be a "tall order" to make another Oly team.

The skate order was Wagner-Cohen-Flatt-Nagasu. Wagner knocked it out of the park with her FS; Cohen COULD have put pressure on the other two if she was able to pull hers off, and only the X-Factor could determine how they would have done in that situation. But with Cohen taking herself out of it, and Wagner too far behind, the pressure was basically lifted, at least for Flatt. Nagasu did have to at least avoid a meltdown or risk losing the 2nd spot to Wagner- and she did that.

P.S. interesting that with how well Wagner did in the free, she was only able to move up one spot. Flatt/Nagasu skated like it was theirs to lose.

 

[Layfan]

You've a point- but I do think that Hamilton & co. tried to make it clear to the viewers that Cohen hadn't skated in 4 years and that it would be a "tall order" to make another Oly team.

The skate order was Wagner-Cohen-Flatt-Nagasu. Wagner knocked it out of the park with her FS; Cohen COULD have put pressure on the other two if she was able to pull hers off, and only the X-Factor could determine how they would have done in that situation. But with Cohen taking herself out of it, and Wagner too far behind, the pressure was basically lifted, at least for Flatt. Nagasu did have to at least avoid a meltdown or risk losing the 2nd spot to Wagner- and she did that.

P.S. interesting that with how well Wagner did in the free, she was only able to move up one spot. Flatt/Nagasu skated like it was theirs to lose.

Yes, Mirai still was under a bit of pressure when she skated onto the ice - from Ashley, not Sasha. That's part of the reason I was so impressed with her. She didn't look like she was under pressure at all out there. She skated so free and confidently. She could have skated cautiously to avoid a meltdown and just keep Ashley at bay. But she did more than than. Good thing for her too because Ashley beat Mirai's LP. So it's probably a good thing for Mirai that she went for an amazing skate instead of just a solid skate.

Good point about Hamilton, etal.

 

[janetfan]

. Good thing for her too because Ashley beat Mirai's LP. So it's probably a good thing for Mirai that she went for an amazing skate instead of just a solid skate.
.

Rules are rules - but Ashley had a couple of two footed landings which CoP does not seem to mind very much. Her last lutz was not very good either but I don't know if it was marked as a flutz, or if the poor air position was penalized or the shaky landing. I guess if she rotated 3 times we should view this as a good jump. I did not like it though.

I did like Ashley's LP and thought on the whole she skated it pretty well. I thought Mirai skated a better LP - but then again I have a harder time thinking mistakes I can't see are really so bad. Seeing mistakes that either are ignored or just have a very slight penalty still seems wrong to me. But since the skaters and coaches know the rules it is fair.

 

[Layfan]

I guess under the rules two-footed landings are less costly than URs, no? I was surprised to see that Mirai lost the FS to Ashley too, since I can never see URs. But as you say rules are rules ...

Another thread prompted me to watch to watched both of Mirai's programs from SC and I could not believe the difference. It was like two different skaters. She barely smiled at SC and even though her lines, spins were as good as ever and you could see her musicality, Mirai didn't sell Carmen at all. What did Frank Carroll say to that girl between SC and nationals?

I thought Rachael, Ashley and Mirai all improved throughout the season but Mirai's improvement in terms of her performance was astonishing.