Ladies' LP

[QuadLutz]

Then he asked what language was spoken in Finland and wouldn't believe me when I said "Finnish".

Falls into the same category with "hungry" and "turkey", I guess. But hey, thanks (Layfan also) for bringing forth this different point of view. It's understandable, but terrifying, how the great majority doesn't understand FS and its magnificence at all. Here we had this journalist who went ranting about Plushenko's quadruple lutz.

Btw, many have pointed out (sorry, don't fathom the multiple quotes) Yu-na's points compared to mens'. That Kim should have beaten the men if she got the same PC factor. However, I think there's a reason mens' factor is higher than the womens'. Isn't that a fundamental claim for their greater physical ability? I don't think Kim should be factored like them. And even like this, she does well enough.

 

[pshla]

I didn't manage to wake up in the middle of the night, I just finished watching the last group up to Joannie so far, so I'm only going to comment on Mao/Yuna for now.

First of all, my impression from this Olympics is that the COP did a lot of good things but also a lot of bad things for skating. The good thing is that the ladies used to bore me to tears before but anymore, the programs have become so much more interesting, there wasn't one skater in the top 15 (of the short program) whose program I didn't enjoy (didn't see the rest), and the same is true for what I've seen of the long so far.

But on the other hand the scoring is beginning to turn me off figure skating big time, because IMO it has taken dishonest scoring to a whole new level. At least under the 6.0 system, you could only give a skater a relative advantage, now they can be given an absolute advantage so big that noone has any chance to catch up to. I also think with the COP you can almost place the skaters anywhere you want with the component/GOE scores, and sometimes some skaters are very blatantly under/overscored in a way that I've not seen before, and this is a HUGE turnoff for me.

Yuna was absolutey brilliant and she completely deserved her win, but the 20 point advantage is ridiculous.
I really can't imagine how Mao felt when she heard the scores for Yuna, that score was so huge that I think Mao had zero chance to win no matter what. I was really afraid she would collapse under the pressure, so RESPECT to her for landing both triple axels, just wow. Of course, she also made some mistakes, so I don't have any issues with her second place, and actually even if she went clean, I would still be ok with second place, but not with a score difference of 20 points which is just absurd. I feel Mao wasn't given even a theoretical chane to win this and that leaves a very bad taste for me.

I liked both Miki and Rachel, and I have to say I'm very pleasantly surprised by the US ladies because every performance I've seen from them was very enjoyable with good choreo and great musicality, so congrats to them as well.

I agree with this so much. In fact, after Yuna's score came up, I turned off the TV for a few seconds because I was afraid to watch Mao. I could just picture her standing there thinking "omg, there's no way I can win" and just collapse. Obviously Mao is stronger than me and delivered her 3axels, and her score was a little high as well. However, that 150-something is still just disgusting. The psychological pressure it puts on other competitors is just cruel.

COP has turned me off skating big time, as I find the GOE and PCS scores just ridiculous sometimes. Hopefully it's just me though.

 

[prettykeys]

Falls into the same category with "hungry" and "turkey", I guess. But hey, thanks (Layfan also) for bringing forth this different point of view. It's understandable, but terrifying, how the great majority doesn't understand FS and its magnificence at all. Here we had this journalist who went ranting about Plushenko's quadruple lutz.

Btw, many have pointed out (sorry, don't fathom the multiple quotes) Yu-na's points compared to mens'. That Kim should have beaten the men if she got the same PC factor. However, I think there's a reason mens' factor is higher than the womens'. Isn't that a fundamental claim for their greater physical ability? I don't think Kim should be factored like them. And even like this, she does well enough.

And yes, you are right about the PCS factor; I heard that the ISU wanted to try to keep it proportional to the typical technical scores attained by the Men and Ladies, respectively, so they factor it higher for the guys.

To multiple-quote, there is a button the bottom-right of every post that looks like "+. Click that for every quote you want to add, then when you "Reply to Thread", they should all be included in the box.

 

[miki88]

I agree with this so much. In fact, after Yuna's score came up, I turned off the TV for a few seconds because I was afraid to watch Mao. I could just picture her standing there thinking "omg, there's no way I can win" and just collapse. Obviously Mao is stronger than me and delivered her 3axels, and her score was a little high as well. However, that 150-something is still just disgusting. The psychological pressure it puts on other competitors is just cruel.

COP has turned me off skating big time, as I find the GOE and PCS scores just ridiculous sometimes. Hopefully it's just me though.

I'm also a bit turned off. I was so nervous watching Mao skate but she was much stronger than I expected! The range in scoring of the CoP is just a bit excessive. I think because there isn't really a limit score is there?. In the old system, 6.0 was the highest one can get. Maybe the CoP should have a limit score too.

 

[karenll]

I agree with this so much. In fact, after Yuna's score came up, I turned off the TV for a few seconds because I was afraid to watch Mao. I could just picture her standing there thinking "omg, there's no way I can win" and just collapse. Obviously Mao is stronger than me and delivered her 3axels, and her score was a little high as well. However, that 150-something is still just disgusting. The psychological pressure it puts on other competitors is just cruel.

COP has turned me off skating big time, as I find the GOE and PCS scores just ridiculous sometimes. Hopefully it's just me though.

I thought Mao would break down too. I thought Rachael was unfairly downgraded on her jumps (they looked totally fine to me), and I thought Mirai had the skate of the night and was undermarked for it. Mirai had same the 2A/3T as Yuna. She had arguably better spins and spirals. She didn't have the 3L/3T, but she did have the 3Lo-2A sequence. And she ended up losing by 25 points? That makes no sense.

 

[decker]

Maybe the CoP should have a limit score too.

Theoretically, I believe there is an upper limit. But you would have to complete successfully all level 4 spins and footwork; also successfully land the maximum possible points in jumps; then receive the maximum possible + GOE on every technical element from every judge; and finally get a 10 on every program component ifrom every judge. The every judge part would be necessary because the scoring system involves trimming of the mean, and some scores are randomly excluded. I guess you could also do all your jump passes after the halfway mark for the 10% bonus!

Even taking into account the Zayak rule, etc. ... no mere human being could achieve this.

 

[Gymfan15]

Theoretically, I believe there is an upper limit. But you would have to complete successfully all level 4 spins and footwork; also successfully land the maximum possible points in jumps; then receive the maximum possible + GOE on every technical element from every judge; and finally get a 10 on every program component ifrom every judge. The every judge part would be necessary because the scoring system involves trimming of the mean, and some scores are randomly excluded. I guess you could also do all your jump passes after the halfway mark for the 10% bonus!

Even taking into account the Zayak rule, etc. ... no mere human being could achieve this.

lol! Has anyone done the math and figured out just exactly what a 'perfect' program would score? I'd be curious!

 

[Daniel5555]

I'm sorry that I caused a bit of mess here by stating that Yuna is the best skater ever. It's just my opinion that I stated in somehow enthusiastic way, but even then I said explicitly that others are not meant to fade because of it. They are as great as they always were regardless of Yuna.
Now, that's still just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it It has not much to do with this performance by the way. I always felt that way. But after this performance, I think, a lot of other people could start to see it the same way.

If you are a fan of a certain skater, you are like that, I guess. I believed that Yuna is the best in the world when she didn't have World's medal, now I believe that she is the best in the history even if she doesn't have that much medals yet. But it's not measured in medals.

Now I'll just write my opinion about the event...

The winner: Everyone. Seriously, it was so great, that I think we as fans are all winners. And most of the skaters had great skate and were not disappointed at the end of their programs. I think, even Mao is a bit happy now. I strongly believe that Yuna and Mao were not going for the medals as much as they wanted to do a great skating. Others also had great skate because probably they knew that unlikely they'll get a gold medal, so they just tried to show their best. And it worked great.

The Queen: Yuna was so good, that it was more than I could ever dream. Take a look at this: http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/4633/33918.jpg That happened not after, but DURING the program. That program is supposed to represent the life of Yuna with her ups and downs, and I think she really skated it with her soul. That was one of the best performances ever, for sure.
I couldn't believe that is really happening. I try not to exaggerate usually, but right now I'm not doing any exaggeration.
Why she is the Queen? Well, because she is the best. And if there is someone to be called a successor to Michelle Kwan, it's Yuna. I mean, come on, it's obvious. Michelle was always the favorite skater and inspiration for Yuna and Michelle appreciates Yuna a lot. That certainly makes a connection between them.

The Queen of Triple Axel: Mao Asada was amazing. I really think that her main problem was the strange relationship with her coach and bad choreography. Being fan of Yuna, for some reason the more I'm fan of Yuna, the more I like Mao. Maybe it's because those girls really respect each other and maybe even like each other. I honestly can't understand how a fan of Yuna can hate Mao, because Yuna always said that Mao is a great skater, and even more, for a long time she put Mao as much superior skater than herself. Now Mao has 2 Triple axels in her program and she can be called another Queen. After all, when it comes to figure skating, there can be a separate Queen for just having Triple Axel. "Just having", it's actually almost impossible to have it. That's why she is another Queen. And who knows, maybe she'll do 3-3 next season.

 

[rtureck]

And who knows, maybe she'll do 3-3 next season.

Who knows or no one knows when it comes to Mao. It seems like Mao changes her mind every year. She was doing 3/3/3 in competitions when she was 9 y/o? Then she does 3f/3l one year , and 3/2l/2t another, and then she decides to practice on quad loop the next. I guess over the years the only jump that seems to be her favoriite is the triple axel. Then for a long time she does not even have a 3t, and then she got the 3t. I do hope she will fix her triple lutz and get a triple sal before she works on 3/3

 

[pshla]

I thought Mao would break down too. I thought Rachael was unfairly downgraded on her jumps (they looked totally fine to me), and I thought Mirai had the skate of the night and was undermarked for it. Mirai had same the 2A/3T as Yuna. She had arguably better spins and spirals. She didn't have the 3L/3T, but she did have the 3Lo-2A sequence. And she ended up losing by 25 points? That makes no sense.

I think Mirai was undermarked too. Maybe they were afraid that she'd bump Joannie off the podium? I don't like this thought though, as it just confirms my suspicions that COP scores are easily manipulatable to get the results judges want.

I just think both Yuna and Mao are so tough psychologically. Both of them delivered OGM worthy performances under such intense pressure (I just mean that in any other olympics, Mao's 2 programs would be worthy of gold).

 

[bmelanie]

Who knows or no one knows when it comes to Mao. It seems like Mao changes her mind every year. She was doing 3/3/3 in competitions when she was 9 y/o? Then she does 3f/3l one year , and 3/2l/2t another, and then she decides to practice on quad loop the next. I guess over the years the only jump that seems to be her favoriite is the triple axel. Then for a long time she does not even have a 3t, and then she got the 3t. I do hope she will fix her triple lutz and get a triple sal before she works on 3/3

To be frank, if we really get down to it, I couldn't care less what jumps Mao puts into her program, I know they'll be good. I just want her to understand her own beautiful, lyrical style and skate to a program that showcases that best. Not that she can't use rousing music - I think she proved here that if she works hard enough at it she can really skate to anything - but I think in her pursuit of the 3As and a more striking, aggressive style, she lost that something that made so many of us become fans in the first place. When I watched her Masquerade SP I was so impressed because she had such fire and energy, which was great, but I couldn't help think of all the other times she had performed Masquerade (this season and last) and remember when she had simply seemed lost, swallowed up by the music, especially so when she made mistakes on the 3As. What that said to me was that she didn't understand the music, she didn't have a visualization in her head of what this music was saying and how it should be expressed. She was simply going for the athleticism of the program and feeding off the exhilaration of her success from the 3As.

 

[FlattFan]

I think the medalists are fair. But the scoring system is just out of wack. It makes no sense at all to compare one performance to another. Like a 130+ LP in 2007 or 2008 were a different level than a 130+ LP today. It diminishes great LPs from the past.
I'm so impressed Mao was able to deliver her LP. That was so impressive. Go Mao.
I'm so proud of Rachael Flatt. Her practices weren't going so well, but she went out there and did her best. What a competitor! There's always Stanford.

 

[rtureck]

To be frank, if we really get down to it, I couldn't care less what jumps Mao puts into her program, I know they'll be good. I just want her to understand her own beautiful, lyrical style and skate to a program that showcases that best. Not that she can't use rousing music - I think she proved here that if she works hard enough at it she can really skate to anything - but I think in her pursuit of the 3As and a more striking, aggressive style, she lost that something that made so many of us become fans in the first place. When I watched her Masquerade SP I was so impressed because she had such fire and energy, which was great, but I couldn't help think of all the other times she had performed Masquerade (this season and last) and remember when she had simply seemed lost, swallowed up by the music, especially so when she made mistakes on the 3As. What that said to me was that she didn't understand the music, she didn't have a visualization in her head of what this music was saying and how it should be expressed. She was simply going for the athleticism of the program and feeding off the exhilaration of her success from the 3As.

No argument from me for Mao skating to more etheral music like Chopin nocturne. I hope she gets another choreographer even if she decides to stay with TT

 

[rtureck]

I think the medalists are fair. But the scoring system is just out of wack. It makes no sense at all to compare one performance to another. Like a 130+ LP in 2007 or 2008 were a different level than a 130+ LP today. It diminishes great LPs from the past.
I'm so impressed Mao was able to deliver her LP. That was so impressive. Go Mao.
I'm so proud of Rachael Flatt. Her practices weren't going so well, but she went out there and did her best. What a competitor! There's always Stanford.

Totally agree, and still don't understand why Rachel's jump was downgraded

 

[FlattFan]

No argument from me for Mao skating to more etheral music like Chopin nocturne. I hope she gets another choreographer even if she decides to stay with TT

I thought the fantasy SP TT choreographed for Mao was her absolute best. Not to mention caprice and scent of a woman. TT choreography is fine, just the music selection is questionable.

 

[bethissoawesome]

I'm thrilled with the results of the Ladies LP... the only thing I really wish I could have seen was Mao skating cleanly righ after Yu-Na. We got to see them both skate clean back-to-back in the SP... it would have been amazing to see them both bring the roof down (like Yu-Na did) with clean performances right next to eachother in the LP too. Although, even if Mao had skated clean... Yu-Na would still have had Gold, even if the situations were reversed, the results probably would have remained the same. I'm so proud that Mirai was able to land in 4th place! She has got to be thrilled with that result... so much for Sasha Cohen saying that the US girls would flop! And Joannie medaling was so great... I'm so proud of her that she was able to put out two great programs and win the Bronze despite her family tragedy.

Now the real question is this... Yu-Na Kim, with her OGM, has now earned 19 million US dollars this season in endorsements. I wonder how Mao's endorsements in Japan will go since she "only" claimed Silver...

LOL What would be even more fun would be to see a season where Mao and Yu-Na both had the same coaching team and choreographer and compete head-to-head. I'd definitely pay money for it!

 

[miki88]

I think Fantasy for Violin was Mao's best choreographed SP. It was mature and elegant. I still think Czardas was her best LP program. Fantaisie-Impromptu is very good and had more difficulty but it was not as engaging and fun as Czardas.

 

[bmelanie]

I think Fantasy for Violin was Mao's best choreographed SP. It was mature and elegant. I still think Czardas was her best LP program. Fantaisie-Impromptu is very good and had more difficulty but it was not as engaging and fun as Czardas.

If we're going to talk about engaging, how about either of Mao's gala programs from this season and last??!!

 

[pshla]

Speaking of Yuna vs. Mao, Yuna really skated like she already won the gold. She really had the swagger and self assurance of a champion. Mao used to have this. I think her confidence has really been shaken by her jump troubles and difficult season.

Not sure if a change of coach/scenery is the answer though, since somebody already pointed out that TaT could prove to be an asset if Mao makes it to Sochi. I just can't help but notice the change in her after her 2008 win. Yuna, on the other hand, has really benefited from having an encouraging coach.

I know people have been pointing out that the 150s score is justifiable given that other scores were a little inflated too, but I still stand my ground that Yuna's score inflation was the worst. I thought the whole point of COP is to eliminate this kind of "relative" scoring though. The system was conceived so that the same level of performance wouldn't be scored 130 at one tournament and then 150 at another one. The way we're going, we might as well go back to 6.0. At least that system doesn't just give us the same old same old biases and injustice under the disguise of fairness.

 

[wonbinfan86]

Speaking of Yuna vs. Mao, Yuna really skated like she already won the gold. She really had the swagger and self assurance of a champion. Mao used to have this. I think her confidence has really been shaken by her jump troubles and difficult season.

Not sure if a change of coach/scenery is the answer though, since somebody already pointed out that TaT could prove to be an asset if Mao makes it to Sochi. I just can't help but notice the change in her after her 2008 win. Yuna, on the other hand, has really benefited from having an encouraging coach.

I know people have been pointing out that the 150s score is justifiable given that other scores were a little inflated too, but I still stand my ground that Yuna's score inflation was the worst. I thought the whole point of COP is to eliminate this kind of "relative" scoring though. The system was conceived so that the same level of performance wouldn't be scored 130 at one tournament and then 150 at another one. The way we're going, we might as well go back to 6.0. At least that system doesn't just give us the same old same old biases and injustice under the disguise of fairness.

My only concern is that the 6.0 system gave way too much credit to the jumps, Asada under that system would have won that by a landslide.