Ladies - LP

[bekalc]

Originally Posted by vicivici
Mao outskated Yuna in FS ??? If you can see both programs again, especially on Tv, you can see How easily Yuna flowed with soft body movements, and how struggling Mao was. I thought "Mao was tired too.."
if yuna did not make mistakes in jumps, she would got more scores in P/E.

Yuna was just subpar of her own standard. and Because of The Performance "Level" gap between Yuna and others, It's like Goes at TES,Yuna is hardly to be beaten to others in P/E.
Just Substitute the player of that fs program Yuna to others, and if they got same pcs, you may think they are underscored. Double standards is inevitable ^^;;

IMO, Choreography/Transitions always affects P/E too, because little changes and moves in between each Component can't have more points than many.

But how many times does Choregraphy/Transitions need to be rewarded. It gets rewarded in GOE. And it gets rewarded in Choregraphy, and it gets rewarded in Transitions. It also gets rewarded in skating skills? Why does it need to be rewarded a fourth time? I mean quads only get rewarded once. I'm not saying that the judges shouldn't take into account choregraphy/transitions at all in P/E. But I'm saying it wouldn't hurt for things like how well the performance was actaully executed, to be the primary focus for that mark.

Besides if someone is very messy, that means that they couldn't execute the program well. It means that perhaps the person was doing to much. Its not ridiculous to suggest that SOME of the PCS actually reflect whats done on the ice.

 

[chloepoco]

Mao outskated Yuna in FS ??? If you can see both programs again, especially on Tv, you can see How easily Yuna flowed with soft body movements, and how struggling Mao was. I thought "Mao was tired too.."
if yuna did not make mistakes in jumps, she would got more scores in P/E.

Yuna was just subpar of her own standard. and Because of The Performance "Level" gap between Yuna and others, It's like Goes at TES,Yuna is hardly to be beaten to others in P/E.
Just Substitute the player of that fs program Yuna to others, and if they got same pcs, you may think they are underscored. Double standards is inevitable ^^;;

IMO, Choreography/Transitions always affects P/E too, because little changes and moves in between each Component can't have more points than many.

Uh, struggling? Are you for real?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

But how many times does Choregraphy/Transitions need to be rewarded. It gets rewarded in GOE. And it gets rewarded in Choregraphy, and it gets rewarded in Transitions. It also gets rewarded in skating skills? Why does it need to be rewarded a fourth time? I mean quads only get rewarded once.

So you don't believe the quad bonus in PCS? How else do you explain Reynolds' high scores?

 

[janetfan]

So you don't believe the quad bonus in PCS? How else do you explain Reynolds' high scores?

Or Joubert and Plushy? They get outrageous marks for TR, CH and IN because of the quad.
Let's not forget Plushy himself said he and Joubert have no transitions.

I hate to break it to Plushy/Joubert but their CH and IN is also on the mediocre side - yet they get big scores.

Jeremy said he knows his pcs go up when he lands a quad regardless of how he performs the other elements.

Now imagine this - next season Patrick lands a quad.

Lord have mercy, if that happens his pcs will go through the roof

 

[jaylee]

But once again that's ridiculous. Somewhere in there, the actual quality of the performance needs to be taken into account. Otherwise skaters will be judged by reputation only and it will be difficult to bet a well repped skater. I remember looking at the marks and Yu-na did get slightly higher P/E marks. And that's just ridiculous. Seniorita was there, and I'm sure she will tell you. Mao out skated Yu-na, Mao out skated Yu-na by a lot...

And Yu-Na outskated Mao AND Carolina at 2008 Worlds in the free, as seen in her TES, and yet her lovely program were not rewarded with the highest PCS scores. Those went to Mao (who fell) and she got virtually the same as Carolina (who had multiple jump errors). Mao and Carolina received high PCS marks despite their errors because PCS, as it is defined, does not have a direct relationship to jumping errors. Looking at their programs and skating ability back then, I wouldn't object to Mao receiving such high PCS if Yu-Na had received _equal_ PCS, but the margins between them were so slight that the difference in PCS meant Yu-Na had to receive bronze. So I think there that it wasn't the case that Mao was held up through PCS but rather that Yu-Na was held down.

Judging bias can certainly come into play, but PCS is not ordinals--judges are not supposed to score skaters in relation to other skaters. Mao and Yu-Na were judged for their programs and their performances. The gap in their existing program elements was so large to begin with, Mao couldn't overcome it. Was Mao held down by the judges here? Only by herself. At this competition, I think if Mao had skated with one hand tied behind her back, she wouldn't have been as handicapped in the free skate. We all know she is capable of more than what she showed in these programs.

If the judges felt that a clean performance of _that program_ from Mao should have been rewarded with very high PCS, they would have done it at 4CCs, but they did not. She didn't break 130 there and she had both triple axels ratified. Yu-na did not compete there, so it had nothing to do with her. And again, at the Olympics, Mao received the lowest PCS of the 3 medalists--lower than Joannie's, but it had nothing to do with her jumping mistakes, but rather everything else that made up the program. Mao and others might have assumed it was because of the errors, but 4ccs and Worlds shows it was not.

The judges have been consistent in judging Mao's _program_ throughout the season. I think the judges have been generous with Mao's PCS marks and have factored in the difficulty of the triple axel already, given that her program is relatively thin, compared to not only programs by other skaters, but to Mao herself in 2006-2008. This is a system that punishes and rewards for all the elements, and Mao simply skating clean is not enough to get high rewards for her program components.

Btw, Michelle throughout her career changed up her programs when the feedback from the judges wasn't positive. Though there were published reports/rumors throughout the season that Mao would, she never did. If she had, the judges would have rewarded her.

 

[janetfan]

And Yu-Na outskated Mao AND Carolina at 2008 Worlds in the free, as seen in her TES, and yet her lovely program were not rewarded with the highest PCS scores. Those went to Mao (who fell) and she got virtually the same as Carolina (who had multiple jump errors). Mao and Carolina received high PCS marks despite their errors because PCS, as it is defined, does not have a direct relationship to jumping errors. Looking at their programs and skating ability back then, I wouldn't object to Mao receiving such high PCS if Yu-Na had received _equal_ PCS, but the margins between them were so slight that the difference in PCS meant Yu-Na had to receive bronze. So I think there that it wasn't the case that Mao was held up through PCS but rather that Yu-Na was held down.

Judging bias can certainly come into play, but PCS is not ordinals--judges are not supposed to score skaters in relation to other skaters. Mao and Yu-Na were judged for their programs and their performances. The gap in their existing program elements was so large to begin with, Mao couldn't overcome it. Was Mao held down by the judges here? Only by herself. At this competition, I think if Mao had skated with one hand tied behind her back, she wouldn't have been as handicapped in the free skate. We all know she is capable of more than what she showed in these programs.

If the judges felt that a clean performance of _that program_ from Mao should have been rewarded with very high PCS, they would have done it at 4CCs, but they did not. She didn't break 130 there and she had both triple axels ratified. Yu-na did not compete there, so it had nothing to do with her. And again, at the Olympics, Mao received the lowest PCS of the 3 medalists--lower than Joannie's, but it had nothing to do with her jumping mistakes, but rather everything else that made up the program. Mao and others might have assumed it was because of the errors, but 4ccs and Worlds shows it was not.

The judges have been consistent in judging Mao's _program_ throughout the season. I think the judges have been generous with Mao's PCS marks and have factored in the difficulty of the triple axel already, given that her program is relatively thin, compared to not only programs by other skaters, but to Mao herself in 2006-2008. This is a system that punishes and rewards for all the elements, and Mao simply skating clean is not enough to get high rewards for her program components.

Btw, Michelle throughout her career changed up her programs when the feedback from the judges wasn't positive. Though there were published reports/rumors throughout the season that Mao would, she never did. If she had, the judges would have rewarded her.

Thanks for sharing your views. I think you make many good points. :agree:

 

[Daniel5555]

bekalc

Somewhere in there, the actual quality of the performance needs to be taken into account.

What you mean by "actual quality"? I believe the total score is the quality of the whole performance. How it can contain some other "quality" in it?

I remember looking at the marks and Yu-na did get slightly higher P/E marks. And that's just ridiculous. Seniorita was there, and I'm sure she will tell you.

Again, they received the same marks for P/E. If you don't believe me, you can look at the protocol. Sometimes we remember things incorrectly, it happens with me all the time
Yuna got slightly higher marks for almost everything in PCS (and for Choreography and Interpretation not slightly), but in P/E they got exactly the same points.

Mao out skated Yu-na, Mao out skated Yu-na by a lot...

Is that really obvious?
The PCS are not being influenced, generally, by jumps and other purely technical elements... If we watch the performances of Yuna and Mao, without looking at their jumps (and therefore, there is no fall of Yuna as it comes from jump, as well as the popped Axel of Yuna and downgraded Axel of Mao), I don't think this is so obvious. Generally, Yuna was, at least, faster and then she had a lot of artistic elements which Mao... It's not like she can't do them, but her choreography doesn't have them. So she can't get points for them, obviously.

It's interesting to look at the SP points. Yuna Kim who had a lot of errors, received 30.28 at PCS, while Mao got 30.96 and Laura Lepisto 29.32. Mirai Nagasu got 30.20.

You may say that judges were generous to Yuna and there would be a lot of logic here. But only on the first sight. If we watch the actual performance, you will see that Yuna was acting until the end. She never gave up and successfully executed all artistic elements with her almost usual quality. We should differentiate clearly the technical mistakes from the will to perform. One thing is to abort the spiral because you may fall if you do it, and other is to finish your program out of the character and absolutely lost. Yuna didn't do the last thing. She got tons of negative GOEs and her technical marks were really low by her standards. Yet the judges were kind and didn't give her low GOEs for her 3-3 combination which was just dangerous for her health, but that's the only thing where they were kind.

But somewhere in the PCS if the system is going to be fair, there has to be something that takes into account the actual performance. So that a top skater isn't guaranteed an 8 point PCS cushion or higher even when they are skating sloppy and mopping up the floor.

I agree with this, but isn't it like that already? The only possibility to show skating skill and etc is to show them in actual performance. Of course judges know the past performances, but it's also true that if a skater has great skating skill (which is the case for the top skaters) is really hard for them to mess up that bad. I mean, even if someone falls while doing a jump you see that he's not doing for the first time, so you can see the "skating skills" anyway. It's very hard for Mao, Yuna, Miki, etc, to be so bad that their technical and artistic quality would not be presented. That's almost impossible.
Particularly Yuna never had a real meltdown. You may disagree, but even what happened during SA or this recent World's SP can't be considered meltdowns because other skaters can show you what a real meltdown is.

And then you have another lesser known skater who skates lights out and loses because the PCS cushion made it nearly impossible for them to even have shot.

I think, we need an example here. And Yuna with Mao can't be examples here, because they both are really well known and exceptional skaters. What are you talking about is mostly theory, but to prove that this is really happening we need an unknown skater who skated lights out and couldn't win.

But how many times does Choregraphy/Transitions need to be rewarded. It gets rewarded in GOE. And it gets rewarded in Choregraphy, and it gets rewarded in Transitions. It also gets rewarded in skating skills? Why does it need to be rewarded a fourth time?

I'm a new fan, so I may not understand things, but how in the World choreography is rewarded in GOE? As I understand it, GOE rewards only the execution of technical elements, like the height of the jumps, the ice coverage during spins, the length of the jumps, etc. It can also reward the difficult entrance into the element and difficult exit from it, but that has more to do with technical ability than with the choreography.

Skating skills are for skating skills, not for choreography. For sure.

Besides if someone is very messy, that means that they couldn't execute the program well.

You can be messy by different ways. If you mess the jump, you get negative GOE, etc. If you are mess at acting, you get low PCS. I guess.

 

[Mrs. P]

Wow, I've been away for a few days, and boy... this thread has a life of its own!

Anyway, I thought Laura over at the Required Elements blog did a good explanation on why Yu-na might have been slightly overmarked in PCS (also some other fun analysis of Worlds as well.) This is pretty much my take as well. I think Yu-na probably still won PCS, but only by a point or point and a half at best. (That would have had Mao win the FS overall).

The legacy discussion has been interesting as well. It's one of those things where only time will tell. I don't think anyone could have predicted that Michelle would be in skating for 10 years and win so many titles and delight fans with so many beautiful programs.

What we can say right now about Yu-na is that she has raised awareness of figure skating in her home country (a good thing), she has left a financial future for the figure skating program ( also a good thing) and that she is one of the first skaters to truly take advantage of the new system (for it's good and bad thing things).

I do hope she keeps skating, because I think that after this Worlds, she'll realize (with some talks with Brian Orser) that there is more to work for.

 

[bekalc]

And Yu-Na outskated Mao AND Carolina at 2008 Worlds in the free, as seen in her TES, and yet her lovely program were not rewarded with the highest PCS scores. Those went to Mao (who fell) and she got virtually the same as Carolina (who had multiple jump errors).

By a lot of accounts by those who were there. Yu-na was not her normal self at 2008 worlds. Her skating didn't have as much flow as it usually has. By the footwork section, Yu-na was sloowww. Whereas Mao sold hers. After Mao's fall, she didn't get up on the performance. Plus, both Mao and Yu-na had one major error. Yu-na a popped jump, and Mao her fall. However, Kostner's result is a case, in point from what I am saying.

Reports were the opposite for Yu-na at this years worlds. Yu-na gave up on the performance after falling.

I'm a new fan, so I may not understand things, but how in the World choreography is rewarded in GOE? As I understand it, GOE rewards only the execution of technical elements, like the height of the jumps, the ice coverage during spins, the length of the jumps, etc. It can also reward the difficult entrance into the element and difficult exit from it, but that has more to do with technical ability than with the choreography.

Difficult entrances/transitions into jumps are part of choregraphy, arent they, and they are rewarded in GOEs. There is also a transition mark that it is rewarded, and a choregraphy mark. So given that there is all these marks where choregraphy and transitions are rewarded. It isn't ridiculous to think that P/E could perhaps reward who actually skated well. Did the person perform well to the crowd (its difficult to do this and execute the elements). Did the person execute well, skate clean. These things should be rewarded too, and not just P/E because they actually reflect the actual performance. I'm not saying someone going out there executing a great skate with hard choregraphy and a good performance, shouldn't get higher P/E marks than someone else but still.

Brezina may not have had the complicated transitions Chan, or the quads Joubert had. But he performed his program better and there' a reason the crowd booed his marks. Its not like Chan or Joubert actually executed their difficulty well. He didn't really deserve the higher PCS, but somewhere in there, parts of the PCS could have maybe reflected that. Its really just a thought.

Same with Adam Rippon vs Abbott. I felt Adam deserved to score higher in the free by a bit more. Jeremy is a great skater and his his choregraphy/transitions etc are harder. But Jeremy fell twice, and as far as I'm concerned the marks should have reflected that more.

 

[jaylee]

By a lot of accounts by those who were there. Yu-na was not her normal self at 2008 worlds. Her skating didn't have as much flow as it usually has. By the footwork section, Yu-na was sloowww. Whereas Mao sold hers. After Mao's fall, she didn't get up on the performance. Plus, both Mao and Yu-na had one major error. Yu-na a popped jump, and Mao her fall. However, Kostner's result is a case, in point from what I am saying.

Reports were the opposite for Yu-na at this years worlds. Yu-na gave up on the performance after falling.

2008 worlds: that could be a whole other debate in itself, but I don't need firsthand accounts to know that Mao and Yu-Na's errors there were not equal. Yu-Na popped a jump and went on, Mao fell without ever getting into the air for the the triple axel, and then took a significant time to skate around the rink and recover. More time than Yu-na took to recover from her fall on the salchow at these worlds. Mao absolutely did recover very well there (and I happily agree with her overall win), but she is benefiting from the Sasha Cohen Olympics 2006 LP rule, which is if you fall at the beginning of your program and perform everything else adequately, your performance is "brave" and an "amazing" comeback.

If, on the other hand, you fall in the second half of your performance, then your performance can be characterized as "giving up" (see also: Michelle Kwan, 2002 Olympics -- not that I agree but I do recall some media, i.e. Phil Hersh, saying as much). I don't really see how Yu-Na could be characterized as "giving up" on the performance when after the salchow, she whipped around the rink into a beautiful triple lutz, complete with gorgeous extension on the landing. Yu-na didn't skip anything in her program other than what she couldn't do because of the fall and the axel turned waltz jump.

I highly respect Mao and loved seeing the sparkle in her eye at the gala. I am hoping that she will come back next season with programs worthy of her brilliant talent. As I said before, her PCS marks at 4CCs is proof that the judges found her program lacking--not her ability, and worlds here is just confirmation of that. It has nothing to do with Yu-na and everything to do with her program content.

 

[Daniel5555]

Mrs. P

Anyway, I thought Laura over at the Required Elements blog did a good explanation on why Yu-na might have been slightly overmarked in PCS (also some other fun analysis of Worlds as well.) This is pretty much my take as well. I think Yu-na probably still won PCS, but only by a point or point and a half at best. (That would have had Mao win the FS overall).

This is good analysis and it's really nice to Yuna, but I can't agree with author's opinion that Interpretation of Yuna was overscored. I'm not sure if she watched Yuna's performance again after the actual competition. Yuna really didn't give up. It's true, that she wasn't skating for some moments, but she couldn't continue her program right after the fall, because there were no elements at that time and she had to wait for music to catch with it again.

bekalc
Besides what jaylee said, I would like to comment on this:

It isn't ridiculous to think that P/E could perhaps reward who actually skated well. Did the person perform well to the crowd (its difficult to do this and execute the elements). Did the person execute well, skate clean. These things should be rewarded too, and not just P/E because they actually reflect the actual performance. I'm not saying someone going out there executing a great skate with hard choregraphy and a good performance, shouldn't get higher P/E marks than someone else but still.

If I understand you, what you are trying to say is that someone with clean performance should receive some additional points (or rather one part of PCS should be a special indicator that indicates how clean the performance is). Well, I think that this is redundant and then what would happen is that, yes, Mao would win the FS in that case, but, for example, in case of Yuna's performance at the Olympics she would get even more scores and that's while a lot of people are already saying that she was overscored. I'm not sure that this would work well.

Difficult entrances/transitions into jumps are part of choregraphy, arent they, and they are rewarded in GOEs.

But the skater also should be rewarded for this, as he is executing those elements. If no, then they should receive the same GOEs all the time regardless of how well the elements were executed (as they are always part of choreography).

Brezina may not have had the complicated transitions Chan, or the quads Joubert had. But he performed his program better and there' a reason the crowd booed his marks. Its not like Chan or Joubert actually executed their difficulty well. He didn't really deserve the higher PCS, but somewhere in there, parts of the PCS could have maybe reflected that. Its really just a thought.

Same with Adam Rippon vs Abbott. I felt Adam deserved to score higher in the free by a bit more. Jeremy is a great skater and his his choregraphy/transitions etc are harder. But Jeremy fell twice, and as far as I'm concerned the marks should have reflected that more.

Sadly, I didn't watch those performances more than once, but I remember that I thought that they really deserved better scores.... But I'm not sure if that shows flaws in the system or just that judges make errors because of personal preferences and so.

 

[wonderlen3000]

I think the whole mark for 'Interpretation' should be judged based on the whole program. Yes there is no doubt Kim interpretation is brillent, but also as much as thre are great moment, she also has break in her interpretation and sloppy performance and that should be taken into account too.

And someone suggest it that, Excercution mark should be taken out of the PCS component. I think that make sense because that is what the GOE mark are for. You got extra bonus for exceruting your element great already. It's just a repitition.

Mao should have received higher points for these two categories, and Kim should have won on the other three categories. And they PCS should have been a little close or almost the same.

 

[bekalc]

And someone suggest it that, Excercution mark should be taken out of the PCS component. I think that make sense because that is what the GOE mark are for. You got extra bonus for exceruting your element great already. It's just a repitition.

I really have to disagree. One mistake may not affect the flow of a program. But if you have someone who has turned in MULTIPLE errors, it really affects the program overall. And that counts for Sasha's two falls at the Olympics too. This especially goes for Kostner at 2008 worlds. Every little mistake Kostner made on a jump, in and of itself wouldn't have been that big of deal. But the lot of the big mistakes alltogether made the program quite awful. The marks should take that into account.

The reason we need a P/E is because we need something that takes into account the whole execution of the program.

And as for Mao's mistake at worlds vs Yu-na's. From what I understand it was people who there who said Yu-na gave up on the program. And Hersh in his article said Yu-na's whole program before the fall didn't have the spark it had at the Olympics.

 

[Figure88]

I really have to disagree. One mistake may not affect the flow of a program. But if you have someone who has turned in MULTIPLE errors, it really affects the program overall. And that counts for Sasha's two falls at the Olympics too. This especially goes for Kostner at 2008 worlds. Every little mistake Kostner made on a jump, in and of itself wouldn't have been that big of deal. But the lot of the big mistakes alltogether made the program quite awful. The marks should take that into account.

The reason we need a P/E is because we need something that takes into account the whole execution of the program.

And as for Mao's mistake at worlds vs Yu-na's. From what I understand it was people who there who said Yu-na gave up on the program. And Hersh in his article said Yu-na's whole program before the fall didn't have the spark it had at the Olympics.

As I've said before, Yuna is not competing against her previous performance at the Olympics. She's competing against the field of ladies in this particular competition. Her interpretation of the music, as well as her skating skills which included jumps, speed, flow etc., were significantly better than anyone else. Why don't you review the whole competition again? Seriously, the other ladies looked like amateurs next to Yuna--so hesitant and scared. It's obvious why the judges gave her the marks they did. It would be true that if all things were equal, that Yuna's mistake should have brought her down to second. But all the ladies certainly did not have equal skills nor did they skate equally.

 

[rtureck]

I love this picture, and I see what you mean. Mao does have that timeless look to her features. I'm not so familiar with Mai's face, but I'll take your word for it.

One of the nice things I noticed in the montage of photos someone else supplied was that Mao had a different expression in every picture. That's very uncommon: most people look pretty much the same in every photo. Mao so effectively conveys everything she thinks and feels.

And then Mathman went and mentioned one of my favorite programs ever, Michelle's Song of the Black Swan, especially in the Worlds Qualifying. The combination of her assured technique and musicality, the intricate yet silken choreography, and the gorgeous music makes me return to that video again and again. I just recently discovered the origin of the first section of music in that program: it turns out to be by Villa-Lobos, and it's actually called "The Song of the Black Swan.

It is an obscure piece from a not so obscure composer villa lobos, I guess only Loir is capable of finding gems among obscure pieces

" Most of the rest of the music comes from a Dvorak trio known as the Dumky Trio, so I had assumed that the beginning was by Dvorak also. Gee, it only took me nine years to figure things out....but that is one glorious skating program, and there aren't many that can equal it in my estimation.

Dvorak's dumky is a much more well known piece. I believe it is a Czech dance. Again kudos to Lori who combined 2 different pieces of music seamlessly. By the way, I still haven't figure out how Michelle made it work so well at worlds wearing a rhaspberry color costume (of that was not the costume of her choice, but the airline lost her luggage).

I think DOD is another program that showcase Lori's brilliance. She combinef 2 pieces of music seamlessly also. In this case the adagio of 4 godesses from Gliere's Red Poppy, and Massenet's Herodiade

 

[miki88]

As I've said before, Yuna is not competing against her previous performance at the Olympics. She's competing against the field of ladies in this particular competition. Her interpretation of the music, as well as her skating skills which included jumps, speed, flow etc., were significantly better than anyone else. Why don't you review the whole competition again? Seriously, the other ladies looked like amateurs next to Yuna--so hesitant and scared. It's obvious why the judges gave her the marks they did. It would be true that if all things were equal, that Yuna's mistake should have brought her down to second. But all the ladies certainly did not have equal skills nor did they skate equally.

That's only your opinion. Others who have watched it did not feel this way. I certainly didn't think all the other ladies looked hesitant and scared. I think your statements are really condescending to the other skaters. hwell:

 

[Figure88]

That's only your opinion. Others who have watched it did not feel this way. I certainly didn't think all the other ladies looked hesitant and scared. I think your statements are really condescending to the other skaters. hwell:

Not a surprising response since most of your posts are about defending Mao.

 

[bekalc]

Not a surprising response since most of your posts are about defending Mao.

So what? I like both girls, and I even prefer Yu-na. But on this occassion I felt Yu-na out skated Mao. I disagree that Mao looked hesitant or scared at that performance. Asada gave a lovely performance.

 

[Mrs. P]

As I've said before, Yuna is not competing against her previous performance at the Olympics. She's competing against the field of ladies in this particular competition. Her interpretation of the music, as well as her skating skills which included jumps, speed, flow etc., were significantly better than anyone else. Why don't you review the whole competition again? Seriously, the other ladies looked like amateurs next to Yuna--so hesitant and scared. It's obvious why the judges gave her the marks they did. It would be true that if all things were equal, that Yuna's mistake should have brought her down to second. But all the ladies certainly did not have equal skills nor did they skate equally.

I agree with this...but only to a point.
I just watched Mao and Yuna's program back to back. I found that rewatching the programs, I found them to be about even. Mao's program still fails to move me, but it was a clear improvement from Vancouver, where she got a higher PCS?! And Yuna's program, as someone said earlier, did not have the same spark.

I see it like this: If on her best at the Olympics Yu-na can get 71, then certainly to go down to 65-67 here (she was score 65.) Likewise I believe Mao rose to the occasion and probably deserves a point or two better than Vancouver so that would put her (in my ranking) at 68 (instead of 62.)

One person I think that should had better PCS scores is Akiko Suzuki. 52?! Really? Skating in the first group really hurt her. She should have been in the low 60's range with Carolina "Thank God I
I didn't bomb today" Kostner and Laura "I can medal with three triples!" Lepisto.

 

[rtureck]

By the way, after reading posts like this, I actually got a desire to actually compare Michelle and Yuna in an extensive analysis, just in order to stop this madness. But to do this, I have to find enough courage, which I don't have right now.

Daniel, why compare? As a YuNa fan you will fulfill your job description to make YuNa look much better at the conclusion of your so call analysis.