Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

[Olympia]

Gaak, it was Heiss! For some reason I held back when trying to name the five-time champs, though I thought I remembered that she was one of them. She stayed through more than one Olympic cycle, which was unusual in that era, because the ladies tended to progress through as teenagers and then leave whether they won or didn't win in "their" Olympics. So she had '56 through '60 rather than '57 through '60 to get the job done. I was trying to name the champs from memory without looking her up, not through laziness but just to see if I could. Gaak! My apologies to Carol Heiss, wherever she is tonight.

 

[John King]

Here is wonderful Laurie right after winning her first US ladies Championship.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/cover/featured/7704/index.htm

Mirabel was Frank Carroll's coach - and I always felt the tradition of US Skating best exemplified by Mirabel passed through Frank to Michelle.
And now, hopefully Mirai.

ETA: Mirabel was also the coach of Natl, World and Olympic Champion, Dr. Tenley Albright.
And yes, it is OK to call Tenley Doctor

Actually she is a gynecologist, but this is her lunch hour.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There are 2 things that can save American skating ............. another Michelle ...........

.................... or another Tonya !!!!

That may be a fact but what do you suggest? Buy a Kwan or Buy a Tonya? Neither are replaceable. Not now; not in the future.
Let's get back to reading the annals of figure skating.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Maybe Michelle and Sasha because most here never saw Janet skate. Or Linda, Roz and Debi through their competitive years.

I am not living or dying for international medals and am happy enough watching our current skaters. Alissa shows so much of what I enjoy from a skater and so does Mirai.

Caroline has qualities I like and so do some of the new crop. Skating did not begin for me with Michelle and it won't end with her either. But she is not only hard to forget - she deserves to be remembered. Sasha too.

Good Post. Eras in skating are just for those who saw them. Ten years from now, the present Kwaniacs will hardly matter with their views. Otherwise go to Wikipedia or some other reference book and drop names.

Caroline has talent but absolutely no direction. Ave Maria is old hat. Barbara Ann Scott toured with that number after skating resumed when the war ended. But you all knew that, didn't you.

 

[janetfan]

Good Post. Eras in skating are just for those who saw them. Ten years from now, the present Kwaniacs will hardly matter with their views. Otherwise go to Wikipedia or some other reference book and drop names.

Caroline has talent but absolutely no direction. Ave Maria is old hat. Barbara Ann Scott toured with that number after skating resumed when the war ended. But you all knew that, didn't you.

I wish I knew more about Barbara Ann Scott - and many of the greats from the past. Many are just as you stated - names from the record books and the dreaded Wikipedia

Here is an interesting clip from the Squaw Valley games showing the top Pairs teams and some rare footage of the Vinson Owen family including Mirabel working with Laurie on the ice.

The Pairs skating looks so different but I like that the emphasis is on skating together and not so much on big tricks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTgEQCq_JY4

 

[Olympia]

I wish I knew more about Barbara Ann Scott - and many of the greats from the past. Many are just as you stated - names from the record books and the dreaded Wikipedia

Here is an interesting clip from the Squaw Valley games showing the top Pairs teams and some rare footage of the Vinson Owen family including Mirabel working with Laurie on the ice.

The Pairs skating looks so different but I like that the emphasis is on skating together and not so much on big tricks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTgEQCq_JY4

What beautiful footage. Seeing it made me remember (have to look in my packrat paradise for exact details) that when the plane crashed, people didn't know how to tell the grandmother. Seeing her in this happy footage, and realizing that she would outlive her entire family, is quite sobering.

 

[janetfan]

Actually she is a gynecologist, but this is her lunch hour.

Actually Tenley was an amazing girl who became an even more amazing Lady.

http://www.answers.com/topic/tenley-albright

 

[Mathman]

With all due respect, if someone cannot take time to learn the rules, I have a really hard time taking in their concerns. I recognize that sounds condescending but there's no other way around it. If the sport declines and falls because the audience doesn't care about the rules, then it declines and falls....

I think there is a lot of honesty in this post. Having made the deliberate decision that figure skating is an amateur sport of interest only to the skaters themselves, we must stop crying about the consequences of our decision. If the sport declines and falls, it declines and falls.

 

[janetfan]

I think these words from Dick Button about skating sum up my feelings much better:

"Ultimately, there will be a moment or a performance that will arise and will lift your heart, and that's what counts," Button said. "In this world, if your heart gets lifted, even for a brief time, it's well worth it."

Is figure skating just a sport like baseball, soccer, hockey and the others - or is there a special and unique quality about it?

I hope skating will always retain the qualities that have made it so special. I can always watch baseball or soccer for typical sporting entertainment.

Here is a little fluff about Dick - with Janet looking so adorable it should be illegal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ugt-HJNcCs

 

[Mathman]

"Ultimately, there will be a moment or a performance that will arise and will lift your heart, and that's what counts," Button said. "In this world, if your heart gets lifted, even for a brief time, it's well worth it."

It is really hard, however, to work work this into a scoring system. My favorite pairs team is Best and Young. Something about them, they make my heart sing. They might have made the top ten at Nationals last year -- I don't remember.

 

[janetfan]

It is really hard, however, to work work this into a scoring system. My favorite pairs team is Best and Young. Something about them, they make my heart sing. They might have made the top ten at Nationals last year -- I don't remember.

We have drifted so far off the original topic.......(guilty as charged )

On another thread there was a discussion about the lack of interpretation of the rules - and the pcs.

How are some fans supposed to acknowledge the superiotiy of a system that can't follow it's own rules?

As to special moments the scoring system does not create them or eliminate them.

I for one had a special moment watching Joannie skate her SP in Vancouver. That wasn't about 6.0 or CoP. But what if Joannie was a speed skater under similar circumstances. Had she crossed the finish line with a top time we would think she is a brave competitor. Those who know her might have been effected - but there was something about seeing this courageous girl not just compete - but also PERFORM under such heartbreaking circumstances.

Olympia touched on this - how skating used to know how to present a better product and seemingly have blown it.
I appreciate Pogue's comments and pov. But can't there be a happy medium? Perhaps some want skating to be a sport and only a sport. I always loved skating because at it's best it was so much more.

Society and culture go through trends. Change is inevitable. But when we see something we love no longer worthy of being broadcast on TV it must say something.
Does it suggest the new system has failed to capture the same size audience the former system did?

Some will deny this - but I think it speaks volumes and ISU should be addressing it before they find themselves in an even smaller niche.

ETA: I don't mean to sound so glum or negative. And there are good signs too. This year, US Natls broke all previous attendance records. The broadcast ratings of the Ladies SP at Natls was up 43% from the previous year (thankyou Sasha!). Of course ratings are always higher in an Olympic season.

Joe pointed out we are seeing much less of the Intl events. Maybe they will always be of greater interest to diehard fans. MM pointed out that casual US fans have never had as much interest in the GP and Worlds.

 

[Tonichelle]

There are 2 things that can save American skating ............. another Michelle ...........

.................... or another Tonya !!!!

in the US it will definitely have to be the latter, and it will have to be bigger than a whack to a knee.

 

[Layfan]

I think these words from Dick Button about skating sum up my feelings much better:

"Ultimately, there will be a moment or a performance that will arise and will lift your heart, and that's what counts," Button said. "In this world, if your heart gets lifted, even for a brief time, it's well worth it."

Is figure skating just a sport like baseball, soccer, hockey and the others - or is there a special and unique quality about it?

I hope skating will always retain the qualities that have made it so special. I can always watch baseball or soccer for typical sporting entertainment.

Here is a little fluff about Dick - with Janet looking so adorable it should be illegal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ugt-HJNcCs

Janetfan, I"ve been trying unsucessfully to express just what Dick Button says so well. Figure skating is a performance sport and I just don't think there is any way of getting around that there is a subjective element to judging that side of the sport.

 

[Layfan]

I think some of this can be addressed even with the structure of the CoP. It's the point you brought up before, that if the judges actually scored the program components the way they are written there would be plenty of opportunity to reward thrilling performances and beautiful interpretive skating.

But, yeah, if the music calls for holding your change-edge spiral the width of the rink, but you get an extra CoP "level" for breaking off in the middle and wrestling your foot over your head...

I love this description.

But at least they changed the rules on spirals for the SP.

Maybe they do read GS

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think these words from Dick Button about skating sum up my feelings much better:

"Ultimately, there will be a moment or a performance that will arise and will lift your heart, and that's what counts," Button said. "In this world, if your heart gets lifted, even for a brief time, it's well worth it."

Is figure skating just a sport like baseball, soccer, hockey and the others - or is there a special and unique quality about it?

I hope skating will always retain the qualities that have made it so special. I can always watch baseball or soccer for typical sporting entertainment.

Here is a little fluff about Dick - with Janet looking so adorable it should be illegal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ugt-HJNcCs

You see, I think all sports are unique. Sure, some are more like others than others, but in their own way, they are unique. Are their moments in other sports where "your heart gets lifted." Well - I'd argue yes. Beauty isn't some predefined idea. One of the most beautiful moments in sporting history that I can recall would be a World Cup goal (Argentina, 2006, Cambiasso). I think you're espousing the very elitism you deride here.

Maybe I'm just a cheap date, but, this season, watching Joannie, Daisuke, Virtue/Moir, Shen/Zhao, Pang/Tong, Savchenko/Szolkowy, Dube/Davison, Abbott, Takahashi, Amodio.......

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe pointed out we are seeing much less of the Intl events. Maybe they will always be of greater interest to diehard fans. MM pointed out that casual US fans have never had as much interest in the GP and Worlds.

Indeed, the groups who travel to Canadian Nationals or the US Nationals are always there at Worlds.

There really isn't much American interest in figure skating on TV. There was at one time, but let us not go back to that. I presume the die hard LIVE fans will continue to be at US competitions come hell or high water, and relatives of competing skaters will be there as will former competitive skaters. A full house? nothing really to grab attention at US Nats. Worlds will have the full house just about for every discipline. Europeans and Japanese will fill it up. For the Worlds TV there will be the die hard American fans of FS . Anyone know if a network or a subsidiary is going to show FS? I could resort to icenetwork but that organization didn't show much beyond Sectionals last season.

 

[janetfan]

You see, I think all sports are unique. Sure, some are more like others than others, but in their own way, they are unique. Are their moments in other sports where "your heart gets lifted." Well - I'd argue yes. Beauty isn't some predefined idea. One of the most beautiful moments in sporting history that I can recall would be a World Cup goal (Argentina, 2006, Cambiasso). I think you're espousing the very elitism you deride here.

Maybe I'm just a cheap date, but, this season, watching Joannie, Daisuke, Virtue/Moir, Shen/Zhao, Pang/Tong, Savchenko/Szolkowy, Dube/Davison, Abbott, Takahashi, Amodio.......

I like your list of skaters and agree they are terrific.
But if skating has such great skaters right now, and as you say the best scoring system ever - why can't it sell on N. American TV as well as it did in the past?

That is the question and not who our favorites are. We all have favorites, no?

It was suggested that including more info about the scores would help fans in the arena and could be shown and explained by the announcers to the fans watching on TV.
That sounds like a good idea for the serious fan. I have to wonder if more casual fans who enjoy skating but don't get the rules would benefit so much from that. It might even drive more away.

I say that thinking of the way Scott has called skating since the new system came in.
I think he is more than aware of what it is about skating that appeals to the average fan. It is not excessive UR and edge calls. Scott seems to understand that a fall is not only obvious for all to see but typically more disruptive to a program. The average fan can understand that but it is becoming more obvious with each passing year they not only don't get the calls from the tech panel they don't care about them either. Thus the diminished broadcasts because with poor ratings the sponsors won't buy time.

I was so upset watching the Olympics patiently waiting for the Ladies to come on. It was really disappointing when they didn't show Laura and Akiko's LP. I am sure most other fans were upset about missing so many of their favorites too and in all of the disciplines.

NBC decided they would do better showing snowboarding and moguls or whatever was being shown besides skating.

This was not bad luck or a fluke. It was a carefully calculated decision made by NBC to follow the interest = follow the money.

I have to wonder if the average fan even thinks of skating as a real sport.
My concern for the casual fan feels important because I think the sport needs them.
Without them and without the ratings boost they provide, skating will have limited broadcasting potential in the future.
I don't think that is a good sign or makes a strong case for how healthy a sport is.

I think Laura winning the bronze in Torino was a step in the right direction. The CoP actually seemed to work and follow it's own rules.

But Laura's bronze was vigoroulsy debated and disputed her at GS. If so many of us had such mixed feelings how in the world would a casual fan have any idea at all as to whether Laura, Miki or Cynthia deserved the bronze.

There seems to be no doubt the scoring system is a turn-off and too complex for casual fans to understand or bother investing much time in.

And that is why they are not watching as much as they used to and why skating has fewer and fewer broadcasts each season in N. America. There are too many other things to watch and until the ISU is willing to address this skating will continue to slide downhill in some of it's biggest traditional markets.

 

[Olympia]

I wonder just why it is that the framers of the CoP have decided that falls are not as bad as URs. Perhaps if they made changes to the code that eased up on URs in comparison to falls, maybe skaters' victories would be more understandable? Who knows.

It's interesting to observe the change in commentators, in this country at least, since the advent of the CoP. Everyone talks about points. "Now [skater] does a spiral, and that change of position will really rack up the points." It sounds so cold. It's certainly not the kind of narrative that draws in audiences, and it has the effect of making the skaters seem rather like moving calculators. I find it off-putting, though I understand that the commentators are trying to educate fans.

 

[Mathman]

I wonder just why it is that the framers of the CoP have decided that falls are not as bad as URs. Perhaps if they made changes to the code that eased up on URs in comparison to falls, maybe skaters' victories would be more understandable? Who knows.

They just did!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The casual fan who is watching a championship, will look disdainfully at any kind of FALL regardless if the skater gets up and continues. The casual fan will not understand an UR who continues the program. This will not change regardless of any amendment to the regulations. The question is How much will that affect the casual fan in returning to see another championship? IMO, only the joy in seeing good presentations will bring them back, and seeing only one good performance, is not enough.
signed by Joesitz, Keeper of the Flow in figure skating.