Johnny Weir Not Skating this season

[DiSkates]

I never like the six months following the Olympics when you start hearing about all of the skaters retiring from eligible competition. Somehow I don't see Johnny returning for the 11/12 season, or if he does, I'm worried it will end up similar to Sasha's comeback attempt for Vancouver.


This is my first post but I have been reading the forum for a while. Finally decided to join today!

 

[Tonichelle]

This is my first post but I have been reading the forum for a while. Finally decided to join today!

Welcome to teh boards, post often, post long!!!!

 

[Blades of Passion]

Does that mean you only enjoy watching skaters who competed before 2006? Takahashi, Mao, Mirai, Yu Na, Abbott, Chan, Davis & White, Virtue & Moir are all taking the sport in a terrible new direction? Not trying to start a fight but I want to understand since you're such an insightful poster.

It has nothing to do with my opinion, it's about Johnny's opinion. The sport as it has been the past 4 years is not something Johnny has nearly as much passion for. Johnny wants to skate to give beautiful performances. He wants to do technical elements because the music and the performance inspires him to. He doesn't want to do technical elements when all he's thinking about is how much each element is worth and how he has to add 100 extra, unnecessary movements into all of his spins, footwork, and jumps to gain enough points.

You really have to be a gamer to completely enjoy competing under what the CoP system has been. I don't believe Johnny cares for that.

 

[Spun Silver]

Well, it sounds from that description like he's not really a competitor at heart. Which to me makes his vocal dissatisfaction with the system a little hollow. There are still skaters who make magic under COP - even if the system makes that much more difficult. Apparently he isn't able to do that mix of technical and artistic, but instead of blaming his own technical limitations or temperament, he blames the system and the judges and even other skaters. That's not sporting.

I know it is almost impossible today for a skater to say, Well, I don't like competing, so I'll just skate on the pro level. There is little pro level left. So I see his predicament. He wants to skate without a thought of points but the arena for that is limited unless he gets really close to Mao, Yu Na or Evgeny. Nonetheless, it is what it is. I hope he can find a way to deal with skating reality today and not let bitterness overwhelm his spirit.

I love Johnny's skating and will always want to see it.

 

[Tonichelle]

Well, it sounds from that description like he's not really a competitor at heart. Which to me makes his vocal dissatisfaction with the system a little hollow. There are still skaters who make magic under COP - even if the system makes that much more difficult. Apparently he isn't able to do that mix of technical and artistic, but instead of blaming his own technical limitations or temperament, he blames the system and the judges and even other skaters. That's not sporting.

agreed. but Johnny's had issues with how he was judged before the CoP "destroyed" him. how dare they give it to the stronger competitor.

 

[Sylvia]

Aside from the unfair marking at 2008 Nationals, they also didn't give him the benefit of the doubt in 2009 when he was recovering from sickness. He was the ONLY American to get a medal at the previous World Championships and he made the Grand Prix Final (and got a medal) that season. He shouldn't have had to compete at Nationals to secure his place on the World team.

Maybe that would have been the case in another country with less depth in men, but that just not how it works in the US.

But, instead, USFSA sent him the message that he would likely not get a bye if he didn't compete. They gave Belbin+Agosto a bye (who DIDN'T medal at the previous Worlds or at the GPF that season), however.

Ben Agosto withdrew from the GP Final in December 2008 with a documented back injury, and they had to follow all the rules and fulfill all the required criteria in order to be named to the 2009 World team.

Insiders told him that he would be denied a spot on the [2009 World] team, unless the #3 skater at Nationals skated absolutely terrible.

Do you have a source (link) for this sentence? In retrospect, Weir may have been better off taking the risk of withdrawing before 2009 Nationals and providing medical documentation of his illness/fatigue leading up to Nationals. Who knows what would have happened then?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well, it sounds from that description like he's not really a competitor at heart. Which to me makes his vocal dissatisfaction with the system a little hollow.

He's definitely a competitor, his passion is simply in Ice Skating rather than Point Skating. Imagine someone who loves Alpine skiing and has trained at it for years and years and then is suddenly forced to compete in Moguls.

There are still skaters who make magic under COP - even if the system makes that much more difficult

Sure, but this akin to saying "if you make every skater in the World skate to TOSCA, there are still skaters who will make magic." Yeah, it's still possible to be artistic, but the range of artistry has been limited.

Apparently he isn't able to do that mix of technical and artistic, but instead of blaming his own technical limitations or temperament, he blames the system and the judges and even other skaters. That's not sporting.

He's perfectly able to do it and HAS done it. Johnny is one of the few skaters who makes L4 CoP spins look good, he got his footwork levels consistent, and he made himself do all the jump combinations.

That doesn't mean he loves performing in such a rigid manner, though. This really speaks to the problem CoP has caused - skating usually doesn't look NATURAL anymore. People like Evan Lysacek don't really care because they have never been concerned with bringing out the nuances in a piece of music. It doesn't matter to them that the movements they are doing don't actually reflect the music very well. For others, however, it's like a constant spike through their brain. Why perform unneccesary, ugly moves?

The sport is supposed to be based 50% on technical and 50% on presentation. The scoring system as it is doesn't allow that to happen, though. A beautiful "level 2" footwork sequence that interprets the music like heaven is worth far, far less than a "level 4" footwork sequence that doesn't have much to do with the music and doesn't even look very good (much less ahere to a Straight, Circular, or Serpentine pattern).

Weir changed his skating to fit into CoP and then still didn't get credit a lot of the time for his strong performances. It's very much "well, what's the point then?" for him.

 

[Spun Silver]

[Is there a simple way to multi-quote the same poster the way Blades just did with me?]

Thanks for your clarifications. I don't have the time right now to do the study that a good answer would need. (We are selling our house, buying a house, and going on vacation all at once.) The analogy to Alpine v. Mogul skiing is helpful, I wasn't sure what you mean about figure skating having ceased to exist.

I'm not quite convinced about Johnny being perfectly able to do the mix of tech & art (that's where I need to cite chapter and verse) - his choreo seems simpler than other top skaters', to my eye. He never tries the quad any more.

I know our OGM doesn't either and the system prefers him to Johnny. I agree that is telling. And troubling.

There's still a subjective element in judging and always will be - Johnny started losing momentum when he lost his national title - four times. The judges stopped seeing him as the top US man or even necessarily one of the top two. That cost him internationally, IMO.

 

[dorispulaski]

One way to multiquote the same poster, is tocopy the whole post to the clip board, and paste it and edit it each time you want to comment. Another way to do it is just to type {/quote} but replace the curly brackets with [] brackets to end where you want to comment and then start up with {quote} after you've finished that piece and want to go on to the next one.

 

[Tonichelle]

I know our OGM doesn't either and the system prefers him to Johnny. I agree that is telling. And troubling.
.

The system "prefers" Evan because Evan skates to the system. However, he was extremely lucky to win the gold medal in Vancouver. The other guys didn't bring their best (Though Dai came close, he just shouldn't have gone for the quad.) either performance or technical. Johnny did, but he doesn't go for teh highest number of points even starting out on paper, so by the time he skates and makes one or two small fumbles he has no chance of coming back from it. Evan overloads his program with point getters, that way if he fumbles he still has a recovery time. That he doesn't have musicality is not the fault of the CoP or the Choreographers. Kurt Browning's SP choreography never made its debut. I can still remember laughing as they did this huge hype of Evan using Kurt as his choreographer and Kurt was the commentator for ABC that year and blah blah blah and then Kurt went... "oh, well, he changed this... and this..." was the stuff too hard? not point getting enough? who knows...

2008 was a manipulation of the rules, not the fault of the CoP. I truly feel that the judges were trying to play up the rivalry and didn't do the math well enough and so Johnny narrowly lost... I was booing right along with the rest of the crowd when Evan came out on top (and I LIKE Evan), and the whole "the last spin didn't have a strong enough edge" was a weak attempt to save face on the USFSA's part. I don't think it was bias or 'homophobia' or anything of that nature, I think they were trying to bring some excitement to the event and give Evan a bit of a leg up (maybe) but I think they were just as shocked as we were when the scores came up and it was a tie and Johnny'd lost. Just from where we were sitting (in and amongst officials and judges from the other events) it seemed like they were not expecting that outcome either.

I was really pulling for Johnny, and then over Christmas while I was layed up with my wisdom teeth I watched the marathon of his show. I really feel for Priscilla, and while I know so many love him for that show I was not impressed with the Weir persona. Very disappointing that he felt the need to become... I dunno... do each their own I suppose. Not a fan of Diva's / Divo's

One way to multiquote the same poster, is tocopy the whole post to the clip board, and paste it and edit it each time you want to comment. Another way to do it is just to type {/quote} but replace the curly brackets with [] brackets to end where you want to comment and then start up with {quote} after you've finished that piece and want to go on to the next one.

or, if you're quoting multiple posts that aren't all together there's the multiquote button (it's the last button on the bottom right corner of the post) you click that button under each post you want to quote and then hit "post reply" at the bottom (or top) of the thread... it then takes you to the reply box with all of the quotes listed in order that they were posted.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Johnny started losing momentum when he lost his national title - four times. The judges stopped seeing him as the top US man or even necessarily one of the top two. That cost him internationally, IMO.

Except he didn't deserve to lose his title 4 times, that's the thing. He absolutely should have won in 2008 and shouldn't have had to compete in 2009 given his circumstance and his accomplishments leading up to that Nationals. Johnny was fine in the eyes of the judges internationally before the end of the 2009 season. All three of the top American men should have entered 2009 Worlds in equal standing - Abbott being the reigning GPF champion and new American champion, Lysacek defeating Abbott by a significant margin after Nationals at Four Continents, and Johnny being a reigning World medalist who had a good enough season to get a medal at the GPF.

Abbott blew his chance at Worlds but Johnny wasn't even allowed to compete. Really just a stupid decision by USFA. Brandon Mroz came in 8th at Four Continents and had never done anything exceptional prior to Nationals, so it's clear his performance there was just a fluke and he was in no position to do anything special at Worlds. Johnny was someone who had a legitimate shot at the Olympic podium for 2010 and USFA completely killed his momentum by not letting him go to Worlds (and by making him compete at Nationals in the first place, when he should have been given that time to fully recover).

 

[i love to skate]

I'm not quite convinced about Johnny being perfectly able to do the mix of tech & art (that's where I need to cite chapter and verse) - his choreo seems simpler than other top skaters', to my eye.

There's still a subjective element in judging and always will be - Johnny started losing momentum when he lost his national title - four times. The judges stopped seeing him as the top US man or even necessarily one of the top two. That cost him internationally, IMO.

I agree. IMO. Johnny peaked in 2006 (maybe even 2004) and has gone backward since then. He did not advance his skating or try anything "new". His programs to me, looked like he was just reusing the choreography from each season. You would never know that this year's programs were choreographed by David Wilson - they were so void of choreography.

Blades of Passion, if Johnny didn't have a passion for "point skating" as you say, he simply should have quit the sport when the new system came into place...

I was really pulling for Johnny, and then over Christmas while I was layed up with my wisdom teeth I watched the marathon of his show. I really feel for Priscilla, and while I know so many love him for that show I was not impressed with the Weir persona. Very disappointing that he felt the need to become... I dunno... do each their own I suppose. Not a fan of Diva's / Divo's

That is what absolutely drived me crazy in Johnny's reality show. You have him complaining about how he has no money, received barely any fuding, how the USFSA is "against him", and he can't afford to pay his bills. Yet he lives in a really nice apartment, drives a nice car, drinks Starbucks, has closets full of designer clothing, purses, shoes, furs, etc. and even has LV blade covers for crying out loud!!! I watched a couple episodes of that show and couldn't watch anymore as I decided his ego had far outgrown his head. Not to mention that idiotic "best friend" of his who acted like a five year old and looked like he was high as a kite most of the time :disapp:

 

[Blades of Passion]

The system "prefers" Evan because Evan skates to the system. However, he was extremely lucky to win the gold medal in Vancouver. The other guys didn't bring their best (Though Dai came close, he just shouldn't have gone for the quad.) either performance or technical. Johnny did, but he doesn't go for teh highest number of points even starting out on paper

The judges are to blame for that, though. Again...the sport is supposed to be 50% technical and 50% presentation. People shouldn't be rewarded for "transitions" just because they put extra movements before and after jumps. The guide for scoring jumps already includes a bonus for transitional movements. That program component should possibly be done away with altogether since the transitions of a program are covered under CHOREOGRAPHY and how well the transitions are executed is covered under the PERFORMANCE and SKATING SKILLS scores. Either that or jumps should not get bonus GOE for transitions unless it is an especially difficult transitions. The GOE guidlines for scoring jumps are actually pretty bad at the moment - only a single bullet point addresses both the height and length of a jump...which is what's often most important in a JUMP in the first place!

Since the Transitions score is in fact a mark the judges have to evaluate right now, though, it should be especially about how well a program flows and the uniqueness of transitions. Which are both actually taken into account under the scoring guidelines, seeing as these are the 4 listed criteria for judging Transitions - "variety, difficulty, intricacy, and QUALITY". Here is a very important note, though - Doing extra movements in and out of jumps isn't necessarily a great transition. The judges don't seem to understand this. Strong and smooth skating edges in and out of a jump, and continuous movement after a jump has been completely, should be considered a perfectly fine transition.

The "Interpretation" mark is really where the judges have not done well. If a skater is including transitional movements solely to boost that score and the transitions don't benefit the music, THEIR INTERPRETATION SCORE SHOULD DROP. I've never once seen a case where a skater's Interpretation score was lower than their Transitions mark, though. That's just bad judging.

A program by Evan Lysacek should receive a good-ish Transitions score if you want to recognize all the extraneous movements he does but only a program by someone like Jeffrey Buttle or Matt Savoie or Jeremy Abbott should have superior marks for both Transitions and Interpretation. Very few skaters actually incorporate "transitional" movements into their programs that are there because the music dictates it and even fewer do truly unique and difficult transitions. Matt Savoie's score for Transitions at the 2006 Olympics - 7.00. Evan Lysacek's score for Transitions at the 2010 Olympics - 7.95. Now that's a joke if I've ever seen one. I'm not even going to compare their Interpretation marks because I don't feel like vomiting at the moment.

In the case of Johnny at 2010 Olympics it's fair to say his Transitions score should have been lower, but he absolutely should have been scored higher than Lysacek for Performance and Interpretation. The judges didn't follow through on that, however.

Really, only people with an encyclopedic knowledge of skating (and who are also good at math) should be accepted as judges. You'll find that most of the people sitting on panels do not fit such a description.

 

[Jaana]

It has nothing to do with my opinion, it's about Johnny's opinion. The sport as it has been the past 4 years is not something Johnny has nearly as much passion for. Johnny wants to skate to give beautiful performances. He wants to do technical elements because the music and the performance inspires him to. He doesn't want to do technical elements when all he's thinking about is how much each element is worth and how he has to add 100 extra, unnecessary movements into all of his spins, footwork, and jumps to gain enough points.

You really have to be a gamer to completely enjoy competing under what the CoP system has been. I don't believe Johnny cares for that.

Yes, the sport of figure skating has changed, it has become more difficult. But it still is as beautiful as earlier, in my opinion. Weir apparently is one of the skaters who is unwilling = unable to compete well under the present system. The old system was easier, but Weir did not win any Worlds under that either. Instead of complaining about the system Weir should have either left the skating or learned the new system the way other skaters did. What I don´t get is why Weir is complaining about e.g. his Olympic scores as he does not have a freeskate according to the new system?

He wants to do technical elements because the music and the performance inspires him to. He doesn't want to do technical elements when all he's thinking about is how much each element is worth and how he has to add 100 extra, unnecessary movements into all of his spins, footwork, and jumps to gain enough points.

He does not need to think about those matters while competing, I would say. He just needs to learn his choreography by doing enough full run-throughs. Of course another matter is if he´s unable to skate to a beautiful CoP choreography...

 

[Blades of Passion]

I agree. IMO. Johnny peaked in 2006 (maybe even 2004) and has gone backward since then. He did not advance his skating or try anything "new".

Hmm, you seem to have forgotten his programs from 2007. The Short Program was a risky stylistic departure for him and the Long Program was a masterpiece (that he unfortunately never skated well).

Also, what do you call Johnny attempting the Quad at Nationals 2007 and Nationals + Worlds in 2008 and standing up on all of those attempts? He has certainly tried to push his skating and, had he been allowed to compete at Worlds 2009 and managed a podium placement, perhaps his 2009-2010 season could have been more about training the Quad rather than trying to simply hang out to a spot on the Olympic team.

Lysacek has only landed 1 clean, fully-rotated (erm, well, to the 1/4 turn mark anyway) Quad in competition - 2007 Nationals. You should criticize his skating for regressing as well since he never gave a performance NEARLY on that same level afterwards.

I agree that Johnny's skating regressed, though. His programs during the 2008-2009 season were his worst ever, almost completely unimaginative (especially the SP), and his Short Program for 2009-2010 was rather empty and pretty much relied on vamping it towards the end. Still, his 2009-2010 LP did have some very appealing artistic aspects and he gave an excellent performance of it at the Olympics. If he had the confidence of a stronger backing from his country, maybe he would have focused on more serious and difficult programs for the Olympic season.

Blades of Passion, if Johnny didn't have a passion for "point skating" as you say, he simply should have quit the sport when the new system came into place...

It's naive to say someone should quit a career they've been training for their whole life and still have a future in. He tried to work with the system because he loves skating and he was successful at being competitive and giving good performances...he just didn't get credit for it on two notable occasions (2008 Nationals and 2010 Olympics).

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yes, the sport of figure skating has changed, it has become more difficult. But it still is as beautiful as earlier, in my opinion. The old system was easier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVYs2M_rIm0

vs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6edwp_xtpc

Wow, you're right, Lyscek's performance was just as beautiful and far more difficult!

:disapp:

BTW, look at the movement Yagudin does at 4:15. Now that's what you call a transition.

Actually, Men's skating has been better in some ways with CoP. Now we need to see the increased emphasis on spins and footwork placed back within the framework of looking natural and always serving the music.

Some of the changes they passed for getting levels on spins may fix a bit of that problem, and they finally did away with CoP Spirals for Women, so we're on the right track at least.

 

[Tonichelle]

It's naive to say someone should quit a career they've been training for their whole life and still have a future in. He tried to work with the system because he loves skating and he was successful at being competitive and giving good performances...he just didn't get credit for it on two notable occasions (2008 Nationals and 2010 Olympics).

did he truly? again, he never even came to the table with a plan that would have given him a buffer for a couple of mistakes.


Evan gets good presentation marks not because he's musical but because he has a presense on the ice whether his detractors want to believe it or not. Having had the priveledge of watching BOTH skaters at nationals in practices and competition there's no denying Evan committs to what he's doing. Whether or not he has white boy rythym isn't totally his fault. Some just can't snap to the beat But, with the warhorse music helping him, he's able to command the judges' attention. Carmen in 2006 was brand spankin' new, but he made sure you watched. ("you" is being used in a general term here). Evan has to be in your face, he's not subtle. Johnny is, which isn't "bad" but judges don't always get that. When they're compared back to back they're going to go for the most exciting. Evan's programs have tension just based on the music choices (Lori is no dummy in that respect. Did the same thing with Michelle, IMO. Emotionally charged music and suddenly MK is the most emotional skater out there... okay, sure.). Johnny's are typically quieter/softer. Their music typically lulls you into a dream like state. I think that's why his SP got better response than his LP this year, other than the fact that he was totally into his SP. That commitment that he had to the SP was lacking most times in the LP.




hopefully my thoughts are complete. it's past midnight, I've had about 4 hours sleep in the last 24 hours, and I've been dealing with a four and a half year old going on sixteen... I'm pooped.

 

[i love to skate]

Hmm, you seem to have forgotten his programs from 2007. The Short Program was a risky stylistic departure for him and the Long Program was a masterpiece (that he unfortunately never skated well).

I just went and watched his 2007 short. The music is a bit different (although still a take on a classical piece) but honestly it still looks very similar choreographically to his other programs.

Also, what do you call Johnny attempting the Quad at Nationals 2007 and Nationals + Worlds in 2008 and standing up on all of those attempts? He has certainly tried to push his skating and, had he been allowed to compete at Worlds 2009 and managed a podium placement, perhaps his 2009-2010 season could have been more about training the Quad rather than trying to simply hang out to a spot on the Olympic team.

Lysacek has only landed 1 clean, fully-rotated (erm, well, to the 1/4 turn mark anyway) Quad in competition - 2007 Nationals. You should criticize his skating for regressing as well since he never gave a performance NEARLY on that same level afterwards.

I was talking in more of music, choreography, etc. when I said "new". He does receive credit for trying the quad, absolutely. Lysacek is absolutely not my favourite skater either, but IMO it is ridiculous to say his skating regressed from 2007 - not sure if you are kidding or not...

I agree that Johnny's skating regressed, though. His programs during the 2008-2009 season were his worst ever, almost completely unimaginative (especially the SP), and his Short Program for 2009-2010 was rather empty and pretty much relied on vamping it towards the end. Still, his 2009-2010 LP did have some very appealing artistic aspects and he gave an excellent performance of it at the Olympics. If he had the confidence of a stronger backing from his country, maybe he would have focused on more serious and difficult programs for the Olympic season.

Why do you think he should have automatically been sent to Worlds in 2009? Sometimes skaters will be sent to Worlds when they are the country's only shot for a medal but the US had a very strong men's team that year. Johnny should have withdrew and later asked for a bye of some sort if he really was still too weak to compete.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned confidence though. If you look at some of his training footage from his show, he looks flat out miserable on the ice and even says at one time (I'm paraphrasing) "I can't wait to be done with this sport"...

It's naive to say someone should quit a career they've been training for their whole life and still have a future in. He tried to work with the system because he loves skating and he was successful at being competitive and giving good performances...he just didn't get credit for it on two notable occasions (2008 Nationals and 2010 Olympics).

Don't you think it is also naive to blame the system for Johnny's failures though? Yes, the system changed and Johnny needed to adapt but it changed for everyone. Buttle, Lambiel, Plushenko, Joubert, Lysaeck, etc. were able to make the system work for them, and they are all very different skaters. Skating is still skating no matter if it is a different system in place. It is still the glide of the blade on the ice and the beauty that comes with that.

Yes, the sport of figure skating has changed, it has become more difficult. But it still is as beautiful as earlier, in my opinion. Weir apparently is one of the skaters who is unwilling = unable to compete well under the present system. The old system was easier, but Weir did not win any Worlds under that either. Instead of complaining about the system Weir should have either left the skating or learned the new system the way other skaters did. What I don´t get is why Weir is complaining about e.g. his Olympic scores as he does not have a freeskate according to the new system?

Well said!

 

[76olympics]

People seem to react very personally to Johnny and that is his strength and weakness, IMHO. I agree that it was hard to know where his head was at after 2006; many of his decisions and pronouncements seem very emotion-driven to me.

I have to say that he consistently reminds me of Toller Cranston except I believe Toller is a much stronger skater technically and artistically (taking into account the different standards of the time). Toller rarely made errors in his free skating, but disliked figures and could not bring himself to really remedy his problems with them. This exasperated Ellen Burka, his coach. OTOH, John Curry said that he made a calculated effort to do everything he could to be on top of his game for the 1976 Olympics because he really needed that championship to achieve his future artistic goals. Mastery of figures were part of that. Toller also regularly steered close to self-sabotage with his openness to the media and impulsive moves like doing the book, Toller, when he was still an amateur. He had to hastily give up the profits to maintain eligibility, I think. (BTW, Toller is one of my all-time favorites though I was just a kid at the time, but I think Johnny may be the "nicer" of the two.- see below)

I do think Johnny is a very warm person. That comes through and I think he would be a good friend who cared about you. He doesn't come across as single-minded and I think that has hurt him because the wins weren't the most important thing to him and he didn't arrange his life or his programs to that end. I wish him well, but I don't think he will be back on the amateur circuit either.

 

[PolymerBob]

Johnny started losing momentum when he lost his national title - four times. The judges stopped seeing him as the top US man or even necessarily one of the top two. That cost him internationally, IMO.

I'm not sure. Evan lost his National title ( twice by your arithmetic ) and won the Olympics. Evan was 3rd fiddle last year and won Worlds. There is a common belief that ISU judges factor in National placements. I just haven't seen any indication that they even know who national champions are.

That is what absolutely drived me crazy in Johnny's reality show. You have him complaining about how he has no money, ........... and he can't afford to pay his bills. Yet he lives in a really nice apartment, drives a nice car, drinks Starbucks, has closets full of designer clothing, purses, shoes, furs, etc. and even has LV blade covers for crying out loud!!!

Of course, that's WHY Johnny has no money.