Johnny Weir Not Skating this season

[Soldier of Love]

Thanks for your help, Mavy. Alas, I'm outside the US and the vids aren't available to us...

 

[ranjake]

I love Johnny- and I wish him all the best; now, I happen to love Evan, too.

I think Johnny is very special, and has the potential to be a creative force in whatever area he chooses. But he does have to COMMIT to whatever he chooses- if it's FIT, yes, Johnny, you have to do the grunt work first before you show that beautiful collection.

Priscilla seemed like a really nice lady, and he WAS disrespectful- but she wasn't "coaching" him at that point, imo. He was clearly struggling and she was dancing around making goofy faces and laughing. I know she was in awe of Johnny's talent, but at that point she wasn't serving him well.

I'll always remember 'Otonal' as a program that at it's best could make me cry and give me chills. And I hope Johnny has another one in him. Gaga is fun- but it's not the same. If not, I guess I'll just enjoy reading Johnny's book. But I think he has it in him to have a great, creative life in whatever he chooses.

 

[Spun Silver]

Obviously Lysacek did not have quads in his Olympic freeskate, but on other areas Lysacek´s Olympic performance was more difficult and in my opinion also more beautiful than that of Yagudin

:think:

 

[seniorita]

There are opinions and opinions but the one that MITIM was less beautiful or difficult to Vancouver winning Lp, is like an escape from reality. Of course I can have the opinion that the earth is flat, but it would sound a bit weird too. The poster(s0rry dont remember who, I read all pages at once) who posted Yag Vs Lysacek OLypic Programs links made me laugh, spot on! Who cares if Yags Lp had less transitions and level 1 steps, it made your heart open and free.

That is what absolutely drived me crazy in Johnny's reality show. You have him complaining about how he has no money, received barely any fuding, how the USFSA is "against him", and he can't afford to pay his bills. Yet he lives in a really nice apartment, drives a nice car, drinks Starbucks, has closets full of designer clothing, purses, shoes, furs, etc. and even has LV blade covers for crying out loud!!! I watched a couple episodes of that show and couldn't watch anymore as I decided his ego had far outgrown his head. Not to mention that idiotic "best friend" of his who acted like a five year old and looked like he was high as a kite most of the time

Having not much support from his federation but gaining his own money from shows doesnt mean he wont say it. Not all athletes come from rich families. It is nice popular athletes to start pushing for federation help, not everybody has sponsors. And it is nice skaters start talking about sth else than themselves and how hard they worked and all is nice and well, the problems. It is not enough for skating to the top, the hard work. And hey, I drink Starbucks as well but have not much money.

Evan's programs have tension just based on the music choices (Lori is no dummy in that respect. Did the same thing with Michelle, IMO. Emotionally charged music and suddenly MK is the most emotional skater out there... okay, sure.)

Oh Toni, The comparisson...I dont know from where to begin here. I wonder..has Mathman fired you or not yet?

2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics were both great competitions for Evan. Evan pushed himself and he became World and Olympic champion. You don't get to that point by being complacent or regressing...

but you can get to that point

when everyone else has a bad day Still kudos for that though..

Johny is a special skater, maybe he was not the biggest competitor but that doesnt say anything about him as a great athlete. By the way, most people love swan or otonal program as Weir's top but I adore also his Love is war program.
And between arranguez, russian warhorses and french songs it is nice someone skates to sth like Lady Gaga, and with this costume and strange makeup.

 

[Blades of Passion]

not burned but we are all starting to feed into hyperbole. To suggest Lysacek couldnt succeed at Yagudins footwork when the whole cast of SOI nailed it is a tad far fetched.

I'm sure Lysacek could succeed at attemping the elements of the choreography without stumbling or anything, but the movement of his arms and the strength his edges would not be on the same level as Yagudin's.

Hi, ummmm kinda...mostly OT, but if I wanted to watch Johnny's (and the others) 2010 Olympic performances, in their entirety, on the net, where could I look? I haven't seen them anywhere since Feb. Am I missing something? Is there some secret cyber underground tube site that I don't know about?

you have to go to nbcolympics.com and find thr videos there (Which are in great HD).

Unfortunately the videos are no longer there. They are now promoting the 2012 Summer Olympics on the website.

There is this happy site, though - http://www.fsvids.net/forums/index.php?

 

[i love to skate]

Having not much support from his federation but gaining his own money from shows doesnt mean he wont say it. Not all athletes come from rich families. It is nice popular athletes to start pushing for federation help, not everybody has sponsors. And it is nice skaters start talking about sth else than themselves and how hard they worked and all is nice and well, the problems. It is not enough for skating to the top, the hard work. And hey, I drink Starbucks as well but have not much money.

Sure, all athletes would like to receive more funding from their federation - how much funding did Johnny receive in the 2009 year? Does anyone know? My point was that Johnny could probably pay almost a year of training if he didn't own all of those expensive clothes, lived in a smaller apartment, etc. It drives me nuts when people complain about not having any money and then parade around in an outfit that is worth thousands and thousands of dollars!! :disapp:

As for the talk about Yagudin over Lysacek - sure Yagudin's program was better (I miss seeing him). But let's not kid ourselves and say everything was perfect and rosy back then. Does anyone remember the awful free skate of Petrenko in 1992, when he landed 5 triples and had a multitude of mistakes?! I just went and watched his program - his skating is so laboured and I don't think I have ever seen that many crosscuts before! Of course there will be the forever debated 1994 results as well. So there have been some less than stellar performances that won Olympic gold and people that won because other people messed up.

As for saying that the only reason Evan won was because everyone else sucked, that is like me saying that Stojko would have won in 1998 if he had not skated on one foot. We have no idea what would of happened so I think it is a silly argument to make.

 

[Tonichelle]

There are opinions and opinions but the one that MITIM was less beautiful or difficult to Vancouver winning Lp, is like an escape from reality. Of course I can have the opinion that the earth is flat, but it would sound a bit weird too. The poster(s0rry dont remember who, I read all pages at once) who posted Yag Vs Lysacek OLypic Programs links made me laugh, spot on! Who cares if Yags Lp had less transitions and level 1 steps, it made your heart open and free.



Having not much support from his federation but gaining his own money from shows doesnt mean he wont say it. Not all athletes come from rich families. It is nice popular athletes to start pushing for federation help, not everybody has sponsors. And it is nice skaters start talking about sth else than themselves and how hard they worked and all is nice and well, the problems. It is not enough for skating to the top, the hard work. And hey, I drink Starbucks as well but have not much money.
Oh Toni, The comparisson...I dont know from where to begin here. I wonder..has Mathman fired you or not yet?

but you can get to that point

when everyone else has a bad day Still kudos for that though..

Johny is a special skater, maybe he was not the biggest competitor but that doesnt say anything about him as a great athlete. By the way, most people love swan or otonal program as Weir's top but I adore also his Love is war program.
And between arranguez, russian warhorses and french songs it is nice someone skates to sth like Lady Gaga, and with this costume and strange makeup.

sorry for quoting the whole post am on my phone and it wont let me delete the other stuff.

anywho as far as MK v Evan I stand by my comparison. I just dont see the variety of choreography. She had a set formula. I am not the one who sees a formula as being wrong. It is sport first during competition.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

sorry for quoting the whole post am on my phone and it wont let me delete the other stuff.

anywho as far as MK v Evan I stand by my comparison. I just dont see the variety of choreography. She had a set formula. I am not the one who sees a formula as being wrong. It is sport first during competition.

Thank you. From some of the comments here, you get the feeling that people would be more comfortable if figure skating was closer to a beauty pageant.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Sure, all athletes would like to receive more funding from their federation - how much funding did Johnny receive in the 2009 year? Does anyone know? My point was that Johnny could probably pay almost a year of training if he didn't own all of those expensive clothes, lived in a smaller apartment, etc. It drives me nuts when people complain about not having any money and then parade around in an outfit that is worth thousands and thousands of dollars!! :disapp:

My thoughts exactly. Johnny qualified for the Team A envelope last season, probably tier 2, but still. Many skaters are paying thousands of dollars in coaching, travel, costumes etc with VERY limited help from USFSA/home club. I just find it very hard to take anybody seriously who complains they don't have enough money yet drive a Lexus, live in a very nice looking apartment (without a roommate now), admittedly buys designer bags and clothes, has a whole set of LV luggage and works with David Wilson.

 

[Blades of Passion]

From some of the comments here, you get the feeling that people would be more comfortable if figure skating was closer to a beauty pageant.

You've completely missed the point. What's unique about the sport of Figure Skating is that a large part of it is based on presentation. Creating artful programs is an important element of the sport and being artistic should be a viable way to win competitions, as long as the technical side is respectable enough too. It takes athletic stamina to control your blades and constantly push your legs to move around the rink while performing, that's why it's a sport.

Skaters who don't have a high amount of artistry need to push the technical limits of the sport (and/or improve their artistry) to be competitive. Lysacek did neither of those things and that is what's wrong with many of the CoP rules - they don't reward great skating, they reward cautious and contrived skating.

As for the talk about Yagudin over Lysacek - sure Yagudin's program was better (I miss seeing him). But let's not kid ourselves and say everything was perfect and rosy back then. Does anyone remember the awful free skate of Petrenko in 1992, when he landed 5 triples and had a multitude of mistakes?! I just went and watched his program - his skating is so laboured

Bad competitions and bad judging will happen regardless of the judging system. That's just how it goes sometimes. Judges have actually been worse under CoP, though. They aren't using the "artistic mark" properly.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

You've completely missed the point. What's unique about the sport of Figure Skating is that a large part of it is based on presentation. Creating artful programs is an important element of the sport and being artistic should be a viable way to win competitions, as long as the technical side is respectable enough too. It takes athletic stamina to control your blades and constantly push your legs to move around the rink while performing, that's why it's a sport.

Skaters who don't have a high amount of artistry need to push the technical limits of the sport (and/or improve their artistry) to be competitive. Lysacek did neither of those things and that is what's wrong with many of the CoP rules - they don't reward great skating, they reward cautious and contrived skating.

I haven't missed the point, but don't feel the need to debate with someone who seems to thinks me seeing beauty in COP skating is akin to being brainwashed. But my initial comment was glib and emptily provocative, and I apologize for that.

 

[Soldier of Love]

Unfortunately the videos are no longer there. They are now promoting the 2012 Summer Olympics on the website.

There is this happy site, though - http://www.fsvids.net/forums/index.php?

Thanks! Had no clue about that site. I just registered!
Okay, I'll let this thread return to topic now fully. sorry. hehe

 

[i love to skate]

Bad competitions and bad judging will happen regardless of the judging system. That's just how it goes sometimes. Judges have actually been worse under CoP, though. They aren't using the "artistic mark" properly.

Then what's the problem?? Why are you so angry over Evan's skating? He was the best on the day he won his competitions - there is nothing wrong with that. Also, if you think the marks were used properly in the 6.0 era...

I haven't missed the point, but don't feel the need to debate with someone who seems to thinks me seeing beauty in COP skating is akin to being brainwashed.

Really, if someone can't find the beauty in Yu-Na's short program from this year, Virtue and Moir's 2010 free dance, D/D's 2010 free skate from Canadians, Rochette's 2010 free skate from Canadians, Abbott's free skate from 2010 US Nats, Takahasi's free program at 2010 Worlds, etc. I really don't know what to say!

 

[gmyers]

Any judging system that could allow someone like Lysacek to be the best is totally fundamentally flawed. He was just busy. Business is not artistry and doing a few squats before jumps are hardly transitions. Not to mention all the cynical backloading so he could avoid doing the hardest jumps (well that's hardly unique to him but he is the only Olympic champion) but still rack up the points. Three jumping passes in the first half of the program? The hardest jump being a triple axel? So pathetic. Lysacek's win is just gross.

 

[Tonichelle]

Any judging system that could allow someone like Lysacek to be the best is totally fundamentally flawed. He was just busy. Business is not artistry and doing a few squats before jumps are hardly transitions. Not to mention all the cynical backloading so he could avoid doing the hardest jumps (well that's hardly unique to him but he is the only Olympic champion) but still rack up the points. Three jumping passes in the first half of the program? The hardest jump being a triple axel? So pathetic. Lysacek's win is just gross.

by this definition then Plushenko didn't deserve his 2006 win.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Of course there is still beauty in the sport, just not AS MUCH as there used to be. Please stop trying to twist around what I'm saying.

I do like how CoP has increased the emphasis on spins and footwork. That is a good thing. The problem is this new emphasis grew into a monster. CoP hasn't been concerned with quality spinning and footwork, it has been more concerned with convoluted and messy looking spins and footwork.

Even among the programs I love, there frankly has never been a CoP program that I think was absolutely perfect. There is always at least one moment where a skater does some unnecessary position in a spin and in that moment I think, "I wish that wasn't there". Sasha Cohen's programs from 2006 come the closest to perfection artistically within the CoP era for Women but they are both slightly marred by the inside edge she is forced to do in her sit spins, as well as the Beillman positions she is forced to do in her Layback and Spiral sequences. Yu-Na Kim's programs from 2007 are the next closest to perfection but they too suffer from distracting Spiral and Spin positions.

Men have had it better off. No awful Spiral Sequences, plus they are better at doing CoP footwork. They too have to deal with the silly CoP spins, though. Many of Lambiel's programs are near-perfection, although it should be noted that he hasn't tried to do Level 4 Footwork Sequences either (Plushenko and Takahashi are the only people who have done good Level 4 footwork sequences, IMO). Lambiel's footwork actually goes in a straight line or a clear circle as a result. He HAS had to deal with doing the stupid inside edge in his spins, though, which sometimes dilutes the excellent speed he is capable of. Still, he's such a good spinner that it is a very minor imperfection. Which is why his programs (circa 2006-2008, not those dreadful things he came up with this past season) are THE BEST we've seen under CoP.

Then what's the problem?? Why are you so angry over Evan's skating? He was the best on the day he won his competitions - there is nothing wrong with that. Also, if you think the marks were used properly in the 6.0 era...

Evan wasn't the best at the Olympics, actually. But that is another debate. The problems I have been talking about don't regard the results of competitions, they're about the state of the competitions themselves. Who really cares if the judging was fair if it wasn't worth watching in the first place?

6.0 marks certainly were not used properly at times, but at least the judges understood what their marks did. Judges need to be stronger in their scoring of the Program Components for CoP to work. Giving one skater a "5.7 tech, 5.9 presentation" compared to giving another skater a "5.8 tech, 5.7 presentation" used to mean victory to the first skater. The difference between 5.7 and 5.9 was massive and judges these days seem to think that the difference between something like 8.0 and 8.5 in the program components is enough to split two top competitors, even if they think the 8.5 skater was FAR better in terms of their presentation. An average of 8.0 vs. an average of 8.5 is really nothing in terms of the overall point total, if your intent as a judge is to show that the 8.5 skater was far ahead of the other skater in terms of their presentation and deserves to win because of it.

Since the value of being artistic is no longer as significant if you've established yourself as a top skater, all you have to do is focus on checking off as many boxes as possible to gain points. Judges need to be more critical on the GOE of elements and on the Program Components. Bad spin positions need to be hit with both -GOE (or at least no +GOE) and a lowered score for Choreography, as do footwork sequences that sacrifice a clear pattern and speed across the ice for ridiculous turns in every which way.

 

[Blades of Passion]

by this definition then Plushenko didn't deserve his 2006 win.

Plushenko in 2006 displayed far greater artistry than Evan. His LP may have been transition-less and frontloaded, but Plushenko is a skater who can pull that off. His arm movements are unique and captivating, his speed is excellent, his edges are powerful, and his confidence is unflappable. When you combine that with his amazing jumping and footwork sequences, it's a very appealing package even without difficult in-between choreography.

Evan doesn't have in-between choreography anyway. He just back-loads jumps rather than front-loading them and has a giant rest section to take up time until the half way point of the program comes. Which calls into question...how difficult is it to put jumps in the second half of your program anyway when you really aren't doing much in the 1st half of your program?

A problem with the current CoP scoring is that jumps get the same second-half bonus regardless of how deep in the program they actually are. A Triple Axel that comes very late in a program gets the exact same points as a Triple Axel that comes directly after the half-way point. If you look at all of the programs from the CoP years, Takahiko Kozuka is the only skater who has even attempted (in terms of planned content) a difficult jump element very late in a program. Check out his 2009 LP - the placement of that Triple Axel towards the end of his program is GLORIOUS...and worth no amount of extra points. Lysacek puts his second Triple Axel exactly after the halfway point of the program, right after he has taken a big rest break. How is that really much more difficult??? (it isn't)

I respect Takahashi and Kozuka so much for the way their 2010 Olympic programs were laid out. They both went for Triple Axels further back in their programs than was necessary to gain the maximum CoP points, but they took the risk anyway because they had the artistic integrity to try and use the jump to build emotion in their programs rather than just score points with it.

Back to the main subject...the only thing Evan has over Plushenko (circa 2006) is a better sit spin. :think:

 

[demarinis5]

Really, is this still a Johnny thread or a break down of how lousy a skater Evan is, Really.
BOT: Wishing Johnny the best in the future. I will miss him competing but I am sure
he will keep us fans in the loop no matter what direction his career takes.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Fair enough, demarinis5.

I mentioned earlier that I found Weir in relation to COP/figure skating to be quite fascinating for a number of reasons. I wonder if for him, the beginning of the end was US Nationals 2008. Everyone seems to agree that Lysacek deserved to win in 2007, but I have yet to hear a person who endorses the second Nationals victory (I'm sure they exist, though). You've gotta wonder if that was a little demoralizing for Weir. He's skating in a system that later comments suggest he doesn't enjoy (though I think it's worth emphasizing that COP has changed and I believe the 07/08 season we saw stricter edge and UR calls), he's clearly not the favourite of his Federation (I recall reading an article that stated that the US Federation wanted Lysacek as it's poster boy to make the sport a little more masculine), and if he skates his best but still gets shunted aside.... well, that's gotta do some harm to your motivation. Of course, he medalled at 08 Worlds (pretty much keeping the USA to three men) and he 08/09 season started well enough - medalling at the three GP events. Then came the the shows, the illness, the marred Nationals and the disappointing result to keep him off the World team. I haven't heard any evidence to support BoP's assertions that Weir wouldn't have been given a medical bye if he didn't compete (B/A got one, and were coming off a lesser season, though obviously they've been more successful overall), but I've heard enough people suggest that to believe that Weir himself might have believed it. And it was at this point you saw the more outre behaviour: the reality show, the press comments. He's always been one to court the media, but he seemed to take it to a higher level now. Truthfully, I can't blame him for doing the show in S. Korea. Money's money, and he certainly needs it (figure skating isn't cheap, and with the lifestyle he wants to lead..), nor can I blame him for questioning his motivation. The direction COP was heading in may have contributed to his decision in the end, but I think there were a number of other factors at play.

Blades, I respect you quite a bit. You clearly have loads of knowledge, insight and passion for the subject. Indeed, another reason I'm consistently hesitant to actually debate you is that I find myself diametrically opposed to much of what you're saying without really knowing why. I can think of twenty or more programs from the 09/10 season that I absolutely loved, with a diversity of artistry that comes from athleticism, and I really love that. As for the perfect COP program - I'm gonna say Virtue and Moir's FD this year. Every position they hit with their bodies is a beautiful one (no other team has that) and contributes overall to the theme of young love. The incredibly complicated lifts are gorgeous (one of the few teams to hit levels without visible effort) and the whole thing is stunning.

My knowledge of figure skating history isn't as deep as yours, though, so I challenge you: pick a pre-COP season, and list all the programs from that season you love. I'd like to explore them, if only to see what you miss now. A caveat: I thought the Goebel program everyone was raving about was boring.

 

[Wicked]

Love Johnny as a skater, find him interesting as a person, and I wish him well. Can't see him coming back, though. If Vancouver was the end of his career, I think it did end on a high note. Johnny skated as well as he possibly could. It was beautiful and magical and he should be proud of it.