Johnny Weir Not Skating this season

[Tonichelle]

Plushenko in 2006 displayed far greater artistry than Evan. His LP may have been transition-less and frontloaded, but Plushenko is a skater who can pull that off. His arm movements are unique and captivating, his speed is excellent, his edges are powerful, and his confidence is unflappable. When you combine that with his amazing jumping and footwork sequences, it's a very appealing package even without difficult in-between choreography.

the main problem with any argument is that we're talking of something completely subjective. artistry to you is not artistry to me or to someone else. I honestly don't see a whole lot of artistry in anything Plushenko is done. He performs the heck out of programs, no doubt, and Evan's skating has become very similar in that way. It may not be artsy fartsy like Johnny or Stephane but they sell it well.

 

[demarinis5]

the main problem with any argument is that we're talking of something completely subjective. artistry to you is not artistry to me or to someone else. I honestly don't see a whole lot of artistry in anything Plushenko is done. He performs the heck out of programs, no doubt, and Evan's skating has become very similar in that way. It may not be artsy fartsy like Johnny or Stephane but they sell it well.

"artsy fartsy" Toni, you crack me up. lol

 

[Dee4707]

I'll always remember 'Otonal' as a program that at it's best could make me cry and give me chills.

I totally agree with you about Otonal. I love, love, love to watch Johnny skate. I just wished that Johnny would have taken a different outlook on his skating career.

 

[Blades of Passion]

My knowledge of figure skating history isn't as deep as yours, though, so I challenge you: pick a pre-COP season, and list all the programs from that season you love. I'd like to explore them, if only to see what you miss now. A caveat: I thought the Goebel program everyone was raving about was boring.

2002 is a pretty good example, I think.

Yagudin's SP + LP
Plushenko's SP
Abt's LP
Goebel's LP
Eldredge's SP + LP
Savoie's SP + LP (the Gershwin piece at Worlds, not the program at Nationals)
Kwan's SP + LP
Cohen's SP
Hughes's LP (at Olympics)
Suguri's LP
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze's SP+LP
Sale/Pelletier's SP+LP
Shen/Zhao's SP
Anissina/Peizerat's OD+FD

I really do enjoy Virtue+Moir and Davis+White from this past season but their programs simply aren't organic. The elements, while very difficult and impressive on their own, have a sense of predictability to them. The twizzles (you know they are going to spin in the opposite direction at the end of the first series in order to increase the level), spin positions (you know the female is going to do a catch-foot), and all of the required movements in the lifts (you know that X number of changes in hold and variation are coming) and footwork (you're going to see a ton of turns)...it doesn't completely serve the music.

If you watch these programs there isn't much DANCE actually happening. Everything is either a technical element or a pose. There's not a lot of moving across the ice while doing "simple" choreography in perfect unison, perfectly in time with the music, and with very little body separation (which actually isn't "simple" at all because the difficulty IS the unison). The programs these days are formed around the elements when it should be the elements that are formed around the program.

Massive credit needs to go to Virtue+Moir for cramming as much difficulty into the program as possible (although they did take out an important move at Olympics, where she jumps off his leg from one foot...clearly among the most breathtaking moves ever seen in Ice Dancing) and making it all look good, but the choreography itself isn't actually what I would call brilliant. The program works because the two of them are gorgeous and you are utterly stunned by the sheer difficulty of what they did.

No matter what the rules, skating will always be impressive on some level if it is performed with emotion and soul and speed and strong basics. Davis+White deserve credit as well for holding nothing back and nailing lots of difficult elements. But that doesn't mean it is artistically cohesive or can't be improved upon.

The style of skating CoP has been promoting is kind of like a Michael Bay film. It demands that every single element is BIG and SHOWY and EXPLOSIVE. Skaters spend so much time setting up moves and executing technical content that there isn't much time left to actually skate, ie - character development is lacking, just as it is in a Michael Bay film. When you try to make every single moment incredibly important (just as Michael Bay tries to make every single shot big and clear-cut and saturated with color), the value of each of those individual "big moments" is lessened and the work as a whole loses importance. There needs to be ambiguity and different levels of volume.

 

[gmyers]

Plushenko in 2006 displayed far greater artistry than Evan. His LP may have been transition-less and frontloaded, but Plushenko is a skater who can pull that off. His arm movements are unique and captivating, his speed is excellent, his edges are powerful, and his confidence is unflappable. When you combine that with his amazing jumping and footwork sequences, it's a very appealing package even without difficult in-between choreography.

Evan doesn't have in-between choreography anyway. He just back-loads jumps rather than front-loading them and has a giant rest section to take up time until the half way point of the program comes. Which calls into question...how difficult is it to put jumps in the second half of your program anyway when you really aren't doing much in the 1st half of your program?

A problem with the current CoP scoring is that jumps get the same second-half bonus regardless of how deep in the program they actually are. A Triple Axel that comes very late in a program gets the exact same points as a Triple Axel that comes directly after the half-way point. If you look at all of the programs from the CoP years, Takahiko Kozuka is the only skater who has even attempted (in terms of planned content) a difficult jump element very late in a program. Check out his 2009 LP - the placement of that Triple Axel towards the end of his program is GLORIOUS...and worth no amount of extra points. Lysacek puts his second Triple Axel exactly after the halfway point of the program, right after he has taken a big rest break. How is that really much more difficult??? (it isn't)

I respect Takahashi and Kozuka so much for the way their 2010 Olympic programs were laid out. They both went for Triple Axels further back in their programs than was necessary to gain the maximum CoP points, but they took the risk anyway because they had the artistic integrity to try and use the jump to build emotion in their programs rather than just score points with it.

Back to the main subject...the only thing Evan has over Plushenko (circa 2006) is a better sit spin. :think:

Both Kozuka and Takahashi are skaters who showed last season that they don't want to backload without trying a quad in the first half of a program. The first two minutes and 15 seconds have 4 jumps. with 8 in the second half but they risk quads. Skaters who backload without quads are not doing ANYTHING really hard in the first 2 mins and 15 seconds of their programs! So skaters are just basically doing nothing because jumps aren't worth doing until the second half. Brezina is a good example of this. He does a 3a 3f and a 3l and then gets tons and tons of bonus points for the second half? Why? His programs is totally empty in the first half. Joubert did 2 quads and a triple axel in the first half of his free skate-it would make sense for him to get a bonus for the second half but not in any way Brezina.

 

[seniorita]

Oh this topic went again to Plush vs Evan Have you seen the recent pic of them two huggin together and with Yagudin also?

the main problem with any argument is that we're talking of something completely subjective. artistry to you is not artistry to me or to someone else. I honestly don't see a whole lot of artistry in anything Plushenko is done. He performs the heck out of programs, no doubt, and Evan's skating has become very similar in that way.

I really must like you A LOT:think: Otherwise it drives me nuts how you find any tiny similarity in their skate
To be on topic Johny twitted this,he seems to have had fun in Japan!!!

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

2002 is a pretty good example, I think.

Yagudin's SP + LP
Plushenko's SP
Abt's LP
Goebel's LP
Eldredge's SP + LP
Savoie's SP + LP (the Gershwin piece at Worlds, not the program at Nationals)
Kwan's SP + LP
Cohen's SP
Hughes's LP (at Olympics)
Suguri's LP
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze's SP+LP
Sale/Pelletier's SP+LP
Shen/Zhao's SP
Anissina/Peizerat's OD+FD

Weekend project.

I wrote a long post responding to what you said, but I timed out of Golden Skate and lost it. Will try to recreate later.

 

[Tonichelle]

Oh this topic went again to Plush vs Evan Have you seen the recent pic of them two huggin together and with Yagudin also?

I really must like you A LOT:think: Otherwise it drives me nuts how you find any tiny similarity in their skate
To be on topic Johny twitted this,he seems to have had fun in Japan!!!

neither them are overly musical/"artsy" but they capture their fans/audience just the same with their "bravado" style. it has nothing to do with Evan v. Plushenko. Or Evan and Johnny.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It should be noted that programs within CoP started getting really bad during the 2007-2008 season. This was the season when everyone stopped trying to create beautiful choreography and instead focused on squeezing out points wherever they could. For example, I'm really happy Jeffrey Buttle won Worlds in 2008, but his "Ararat" program was actually choreographically watered down from what it had been the previous year. It was still good, for sure, but it was no longer a masterpiece.

This was the season that most skaters started putting their 3 jumping passes back-to-back-to-back in the SP. It was the season we started really seeing the crazy attempts at Level 4 footwork sequences, where people like Mao Asada and Carolina Kostner were spending over half a minute to get across the ice on their footwork sequences and zig-zagging all over in order to cram in as many turns and steps as possible! On a purely technical level I'm still impressed by how well Mao is able to do that footwork, but it doesn't interpret the music or even have a cohesive purpose on its own. It's just a bunch of turns and steps and leaps that have little to do with each other or the program.

That is why I am critical of Virtue+Moir's program. They are gorgeous and they make everything look heavenly, but you can't honestly say all of their twizzles and footwork sequences and lifts are one with the music. Those elements are largely pre-planned regardless of the music and they simply place them as well as they can within the chosen piece of music (their 2010 program did a superb job of attempting to make it look natural, though). Figure Skating will always have that to some extent but the balance between technical and artistic has been lost. Now it's just "you MUST include all of these elements and be as technical as possible on every level possible, and then you can try to create a program."

Now, don't get me wrong, some of these programs really are much better than a lot of the Ice Dancing we've seen in the past. Programs used to be so much emptier and the new difficulties do add more excitement at times. However, the rules don't allow performances to ever be truly transcendent.

We need to see less required elements and instead let competitors pick several of the elements for the programs, so they can choose different elements depending on what they think fits the music best. We need to not have a system that requires every single element to be "Level 4". Instead, there should be a maximum combined Level all of your elements in total can be. Then competitors can pick which moves they specifically want to add more complexities to, in order to reflect the music as well as possible (and there would be no deduction for adding in "too much" complexity either).

We need judges to get really critical about the elements being performed - both the quality of the elements and how well they actually interpret the music. Even with a Level cap in place, skaters should sometimes perform "less difficult" programs if they can execute them better and make them work with the music better.

EDIT - LOL, this is really the wrong thread for my numerous thesis statements and it should probably have a thread of its own. It's been awhile since we've had a "fix CoP!!!" thread at the top of the forum. Maybe if a moderator wants to split some of this discussion off? Or, I can start another thread that combines my thoughts on what needs to be changed with some detailed analysis of various programs like I've done in other threads.

 

[gmyers]

LOL Isn't it amazing how mostly every man's music requires five jumps after the halfway point and women's four? I mean jumps no longer have anything to do with music anymore and maybe really never did but COP really brings that out and makes it totoally obvious. That's why I see these 2010/2011 programs threads and I just have to wonder but what is there jump layout? That is what important in determining who wins.

 

[PolymerBob]

Johnny just won the Michelle Kwan Trophy. I started a thread but it got moved to the ANNOUNCEMENT folder because the computer did not like the link.

Congratulations Johnny !!!!

 

[Kitt]

I'm so glad he won. He worked so hard this season - his fans realize it anyway!

 

[Tinymavy15]

That is such a joke. Marlie should have won or else Evan for winning the OGM. This award is losing credibility.

 

[gmyers]

Weir won because Lysacek lacks zazz

 

[PolymerBob]

Marlie should have won ..........

I don't think I've heard of Marlie.

 

[gmyers]

I don't think I've heard of Marlie.

Well it's Meryl and Charlie merged

 

[shine]

Many of Lambiel's programs are near-perfection, although it should be noted that he hasn't tried to do Level 4 Footwork Sequences either (Plushenko and Takahashi are the only people who have done good Level 4 footwork sequences, IMO). Lambiel's footwork actually goes in a straight line or a clear circle as a result. He HAS had to deal with doing the stupid inside edge in his spins, though, which sometimes dilutes the excellent speed he is capable of. Still, he's such a good spinner that it is a very minor imperfection. Which is why his programs (circa 2006-2008, not those dreadful things he came up with this past season) are THE BEST we've seen under CoP.

huh?

 

[Blades of Passion]

huh?

Lambiel's programs this past season sucked. It was the most disappointing thing of the whole season for me. I love him so much but he failed to bring anything great to the table. His SP was actually very good for the last 1/3rd, but the first 2/3rds were a complete bore. He even fell into the recent CoP trend of putting all 3 jumping passes in the SP back-to-back-to-back. Very disheartening to see someone of his creative talent drop to such a banal level of choreography.

His LP simply didn't work at all. There weren't any particularly brilliant moments of artistry and as a whole it never created a special feeling. Massively underwhelming.

 

[Kitt]

And yet with this underwhelming program and botched landings, he still beat Johnny at the Olys. I like Stephane a lot, but this travesty was too much for me.

But the people have spoken, USFS and all other judges......even with an Olympic gold for Evan, Johnny is still the overwhelming favorite!

 

[Jaana]

And yet with this underwhelming program and botched landings, he still beat Johnny at the Olys. I like Stephane a lot, but this travesty was too much for me.

As he deserved, Weir did beat Lambiel in technical elements, it was in PCS that Weir lost (because of his not CoP-friendly freeskate programme):

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/SEG002.HTM

Also Chan had a CoP-friendly programme. Besides, one has to remember that Lambiel is a two-time World champion and Chan was a reigning World silver medalist. Weir unfortunately has only a World bronze medal. LOL, this is figure skating after all, and reputation means something...

It was Takahashi for whom I really felt sorry, as he was only 5th in the freeskate.