What will 2010-11 bring for Caroline Zhang?

[aftertherain]

Well, still, isn't it possible for a skater to train spins and spirals and devote time to interpretation and choreography, even when they have to rework their jumps?

Of course it's possible, but like you said, Caroll had his approach and I suppose Gambill's is different from that. We all know Caroll doesn't take crap, it remains to be seen what kind of coach Gambill is. Remember Mirai two years ago before she had Caroll as her coach? She had a bad season before it became good.

Maybe next time we see Caroline, we'll see better spins and spirals. Or maybe even by next year, she'll have an ideal program/performance. The ones she has in her arsenal aren't bad, they're just not up to par with what she used to be able to do.

 

[cornell08]

I believe it was Frank Carroll who once said, "Fat doesn't fly." He said this to Michelle Kwan around 2001, and I don't think anyone would say she was fat. But under that snark and sass, he brings up a good point-- its just harder to do all elements (and do them well) when you have more weight to carry. I think more people can agree that Caroline, while not being 'fat', has gained a noticeable amount of weight in a short time frame and now has a physically more challenging build for figure skating (you know, a sport where you have to propel yourself off and across the ice).

I don't think we should be using 'mainstream average weight/bmi' when we are talking about figure skaters, who need to be more lean than non-professional athletes. Sure, she's still TINY by American standards, but come on people-- this is a figure skating board. She actually reminds me more of Kimmie-- added mass (regardless of whether its fat or muscle) has shifted to areas that make in-air-tight-rotations more difficult when jumping, and faster spins difficult, too.

As I don't think Frank Carroll meant to sound rude or insensitive, I don't think anyone on here means to sound insensitive either. Its just a preference for straight talk. People can sugar coat it all they want, but heavier is heavier. And for the record, she does have a sweet tooth that facebook friends of Caroline have seen since her winning Junior Worlds. Observations and shows of concern are not evidence of myopia or waning support-- they are just observations and concern, which I think anyone is entitled to without being labeled "fanboys/fangirls."

I do think it remains to be seen what will happen-- and I am proud of her for working on her flip. That is change that can already be seen and I hope she takes that as encouragement. I think more so than anyone on this board, Caroline probably wishes things would happen in a snap. I hope she doesn't get discouraged if it takes a while.

 

[Mathman]

I believe it was Frank Carroll who once said, "Fat doesn't fly." He said this to Michelle Kwan around 2001...

That is very interesting. In the 2001-02 season Michelle was way too skinny, living (as she said) on diet coke. I don't know how that affected her training and stamina for the 2002 Olympics.

Yagudin, too, dropped about 20 pounds to start the 2001-02 season. He flopped in the early going, but was able to build his strength back up in time.

 

[R.D.]

That is very interesting. In the 2001-02 season Michelle was way too skinny, living (as she said) on diet coke. I don't know how that affected her training and stamina for the 2002 Olympics.

Yagudin, too, dropped about 20 pounds to start the 2001-02 season. He flopped in the early going, but was able to build his strength back up in time.

Some people seem to think the thinner, the better. But you need to have the strength, too.

 

[silverlake22]

To me it seems like if you want to be at the top of this sport, you have to make sacrifices, and eating a lot is one of them. I remember in an article that came out about Mirai before the Olympics it said something about Frank saying "You can eat or you can compete". A little harsh, but he is right. I mean I think Yuna eats cereal for dinner every night, or she was leading up to the Olympics, and she admits to loving bread and ice cream though she hardly ever gets to eat it. Now, I'm not encouraging eating disorders by any means, but in figure skating, just like in ballet and presumably other sports, there is an ideal body type which some people have, some people need to work to have, and others will never have it without developing an eating disorder. Usually though you can tell the difference between someone who doesn't have the ideal body type but is perfectly fit and someone who maybe has a little extra weight on them. I guess what I'm trying to say is if you have trouble controlling your food intake than figure skating probably isn't the best sport to get seriously into unless you are naturally built like a pencil, otherwise it will probably just make you miserable. Someone like Rachael Flatt probably eats very healthily to keep the figure she has now just looking at how her parents are built, but seeing all that girl excells in it doesn't surprise me, she is obviously very disciplined and determined.

 

[feraina]

I guess Irina wasn't considered super thin by skating standards, but she was certainly super fit. Apart from that though, yeah, most of the female world champions recently have been really thin, so I guess there's this notion of if you want to be world champion you're supposed to look a certain way (thin). It's too bad.

I respectfully disagree. I think you got the cause and effect backwards here. Those girls/women won world championships when they were at the peak of their fitness. In fact, the data you've put together here argue forcefully for the idea that a certain level of fitness is essential for world-class athleticism in figure skating. And yes, that often involves looking thinner than the average American girl that age. Because you know what, U.S. is the most obese nation in the world by any measure, and what looks like "normal" weight in this country, because we are so used to it on a daily basis, is at a fitness disadvantage compared to other countries. And yes, that also means that to stay at a healthy athletic fitness level, it requires extraordinary self-discipline and effort, because the typical American diet is so incredibly unhealthy. I've lived in Asia and Europe besides the U.S., and I can tell you that "dessert" is not a standard course in the Asian diet and teenagers snack on dried fish and fruits instead of candy bars or chips, and the same brands of cereals and yoghurt that sell in Europe and the U.S. taste completely different, because there is often 3 times as much glucose in the American version -- just as some examples.

It's not easy to be an elite-level athlete from the U.S., especially in a sport like figure skating where a little bit of extra body fat can really affect performance, since the athletes are doing incredible, near-super-human feats that are the very edge of what is physically humanly possible. The odds are all stacked against an American teenage girl athlete. They are constantly under temptation and peer pressure with all the junk food ads constantly on TV and billboards, and at friends' birthday parties and sleepovers...

And no, being at a peak level of physical fitness is not sufficient to get to elite world level, but it is more or less a pre-requisite.

 

[feraina]

Now, I'm not encouraging eating disorders by any means, but in figure skating, just like in ballet and presumably other sports, there is an ideal body type which some people have, some people need to work to have, and others will never have it without developing an eating disorder.

I like how you put it. Caroline does not seem to be genetically endowed as, say her older sister, who's not even an athlete but has a willowy figure like Yu-na's. She looks to take more after her mother, and that probably means she belongs to the category that'll either have to work really hard to be fit, or the type that wouldn't be able to get to that level without developing an eating disorder. I hope the former and not latter, but genes are genes, what can you do? Hopefully she has the right coaching team around her to give herself the best chance to get to her top fitness level (among other things).

And if it is the latter, at least she's only 17 and she can quit after this season and go to a very good university. With her athletic achievements and smarts (she did very well in school before she became online-homeschooled for high school, and her dad a Harvard graduate, her sister an MIT graduate), she can definitely get herself into a good school and excel academically.

It might be a sad end for us skating fans who love her skating so much and hoped to see her getting to (bigger, better) places, but it needn't be a sad end for her. She's so young, she has her whole future ahead of her, and it doesn't have to be skating.

 

[silverlake22]

It's not easy to be an elite-level athlete from the U.S., especially in a sport like figure skating where a little bit of extra body fat can really affect performance, since the athletes are doing incredible, near-super-human feats that are the very edge of what is physically humanly possible. The odds are all stacked against an American teenage girl athlete. They are constantly under temptation and peer pressure with all the junk food ads constantly on TV and billboards, and at friends' birthday parties and sleepovers...

And no, being at a peak level of physical fitness is not sufficient to get to elite world level, but it is more or less a pre-requisite.

The thing is though, you can be an elite athlete in a sport other than figure skating and still have a little body fat on you. I go to a Division 1 athletic college and a lot of my friends on the soccer and field hockey teams aren't stick thin and do have some body fat on them. Now they are definitely very fit, but you don't have to be bordering too thin to be fit or a good athlete. I'm just making the point that in some sports, being 5'2" and 130 pounds is ok, but figure skating is not one of those sports.

 

[feraina]

The thing is though, you can be an elite athlete in a sport other than figure skating and still have a little body fat on you. I go to a Division 1 athletic college and a lot of my friends on the soccer and field hockey teams aren't stick thin and do have some body fat on them. Now they are definitely very fit, but you don't have to be bordering too thin to be fit or a good athlete. I'm just making the point that in some sports, being 5'2" and 130 pounds is ok, but figure skating is not one of those sports.

I totally agree with you. Think football. Think sumo wrestling.

I think I said somewhere that in the sports where even carrying a little extra body fat matters, such as figure skating, is where American athletes (girls in particular) are especially at a disadvantage.

ETA: in case someone thinks I'm picking on girls, I'm not. Just stating a scientific fact. Women more often than men have a sweet tooth, and their body is great at incorporating carbs and sugars and turning them into fat. This was probably adaptive in our evolutionary history, since young, fertile females needed to be ready to get pregnant, support the growth of another little human being inside, and then nurse -- in short, storing enough bodily fuel to support more than one human being. I say "was" because never before modern times have women had such easy and constant access to high-fat, high-sugar foods... The modern diet is totally wrong for our bodies, especially the American diet; it presses all the wrong buttons, built to help survival in a much scarcer environment.

 

[Olympia]

Feraina, though I hate to talk about weight on girl athletes for all sorts of reasons, I have to concede that each sport has one or two ideal body types because of the demands of the sport. That doesn't mean that someone with another body type can't excel, but it could be a bit harder. (One exception that crossed my mind in skating is Shue Shen, who's rather tall for a pair skater and not quite as starved-looking as either Pang or Ms. Zhang (Dan?), and yet she magically is able to perform the most demanding lifts and throws.) One ideal body type for ladies' singles skating is lean and narrow, preferably petite. The other ideal type, though, seems to be muscular and compact, like Midori Ito and Tonya Harding, so there are other possibilities for skaters.

Your other point, about American foods in terms of both quality and quantity is, alas, right on the mark. It's hard to resist the siren call of junk food, especially as an adolescent. We're also a lot more sedentary as a society. Interestingly, Asian Americans tend to be taller and bigger than their counterparts in Asia. That's got to be diet.

As this applies to Caroline, I hope she can figure things out (pun not intended) and resume her climb upward in skating. It's hard watching youngsters falter on the way to their goals, especially in sports where the peak age comes so early, giving them no second chances.

 

[feraina]

One exception that crossed my mind in skating is Shue Shen, who's rather tall for a pair skater and not quite as starved-looking as either Pang or Ms. Zhang (Dan?), and yet she magically is able to perform the most demanding lifts and throws.

Are you thinking Xue Shen? Her partner Hongbo Zhao famously said to Yao Bin to let her eat more, he would rather work out twice as hard in the gym, if need be, to lift and throw her. But Xue Shen (5'3) is a little shorter than Qing Pang (5'4) and Dan Zhang (5'5). Zhao (5'9) is also smaller than the other two guys, Jian Tong (5'11) and Hao Zhang (6'0). So what's really impressive about Shen & Zhao's throws and twists being so big is Zhao's size. He must be a really fit guy! Especially when you consider that he won the Olympics at 36!

What's impressive about Pang & D. Zhang is that they can land those triple jumps, especially D. Zhang, who can easily reel off a 2A-3T, which even most elite female singles skaters cannot do without UR.

 

[aftertherain]

Are you thinking Xue Shen? Her partner Hongbo Zhao famously said to Yao Bin to let her eat more, he would rather work out twice as hard in the gym, if need be, to lift and throw her.

Did he really say that? When was this?!

Oh, that's so sweet! They really are right for each other.

And I get scared every time Pang or Zhang get thrown in the air. Their legs are just so darn skinny!

Interestingly, Asian Americans tend to be taller and bigger than their counterparts in Asia. That's got to be diet.

'Taller' does not apply to me. I cry a little on the inside.

 

[luckyguy]

... It's hard watching youngsters falter on the way to their goals, especially in sports where the peak age comes so early, giving them no second chances.

Amen.

By the way, Zhang reached her peak at the age of 13/14. Now is she seventeen. This thread and the devotion of her fans are for me a phenomenon.

 

[feraina]

Amen.

By the way, Zhang reached her peak at the age of 13/14. Now is she seventeen. This thread and the devotion of her fans are for me a phenomenon.

Yeah, I know, it's really impressive. Year after year, there is a special thread devoted to Caroline, no matter how disappointing her competitive results. Not even Mao can compare, and I think it's the first year Yu-na's thread is longer -- and that's largely because of the whole Yuna-Brian split. I guess the early promise Caroline showed, that precocious "it" factor, had us all fall in love with her and continue cheering for her when things didn't go so well. This is the first year that there's a crack appearing in her fan base, maybe the first dawning for many of us that perhaps her best years are already behind her...

God, I hope she will prove us wrong. I saw a seriousness and a determination in her eyes at NHK that I hadn't really seen before. I hope that means she's determined to do whatever that's necessary to dig herself out of her current hole, no matter how impossible the task seems. I hope it's not too late...

 

[sunny0760]

...I think it's the first year Yu-na's thread is longer -- and that's largely because of the whole Yuna-Brian split.

Mmmm... this is simply not true. The split caused the biggest threads for some time but another thread other than Yuna's News thread. I don't follow this thread so I don't know this thread has been largely for Caroline's fans or not. But I believe that Yuna's News thread has not been just for fans and some controversies and debates have made it more crowed and helped it longer.

Asian Americans tend to be taller and bigger than their counterparts in Asia. That's got to be diet.

Not picking on your comments Olympia but I want to add something. Young Koreans/Asian people are much taller and bigger than older generation. Senior people also getting stockier because of the age and nutrition. Globalization and globalized food comsumption and most of all, economic development in this country have influenced (younger) people's height and overweight problems on the all generations. I think you would be surprised to see Korean youngsters are almost as tall as Americans, only an inch or so shorter on average.
(By the way, average Korean males are a little(one inch?) taller than Japanese/Chinese counterparts.)

I guess the early promise Caroline showed, that precocious "it" factor, had us all fall in love with her and continue cheering for her when things didn't go so well.

Seeing Caroline at NHK, I thought she can express music better than many other skaters and adored her determination to improve her issues like mule kick.:thumbsup:

 

[Medusa]

I cannot imagine how Zhang must have felt in the last months. You notice it when you gain weight like this, she certainly must have noticed it. And she knew that once she stepped on the ice with the new body, people would talk. Judges, competitors, other coaches, officials, fans... And she still went to Japan, showcased her new, not finished, technique, yes, she crashed and burnt in the freeprogram, but she certainly has courage and spunk.

Arakawa was 22 when she became World Champion, she was at the peak of her jumping ability, in contrast to lots of other Asian skaters these days she had a butt and powerful tighs back then. Even as a tiny teen she never jumped that well.

Arakawa probably had better basic technique than Zhang, but Zhang certainly has talent and I am quite sure that she could get to a good place with lots of patience and discipline.

 

[Olympia]

Are you thinking Xue Shen? Her partner Hongbo Zhao famously said to Yao Bin to let her eat more, he would rather work out twice as hard in the gym, if need be, to lift and throw her. But Xue Shen (5'3) is a little shorter than Qing Pang (5'4) and Dan Zhang (5'5). Zhao (5'9) is also smaller than the other two guys, Jian Tong (5'11) and Hao Zhang (6'0). So what's really impressive about Shen & Zhao's throws and twists being so big is Zhao's size. He must be a really fit guy! Especially when you consider that he won the Olympics at 36!

What's impressive about Pang & D. Zhang is that they can land those triple jumps, especially D. Zhang, who can easily reel off a 2A-3T, which even most elite female singles skaters cannot do without UR.

Thanks, Feraina. I did mean Xue. Generally, especially with Chinese names, I Google as I write to verify spelling, but this time I was tired and didn't. What a lovely story about Zhao asking that Shen be allowed to eat more. I realized seconds after I posted that what I should have added was that the size differential between these partners (both height and build) seems less than that between other pairs (notably the Zhangs). This visual unity, for want of a better word, adds to the idea that this is a pair of adults skating an emotional narrative.

Sunny, you make a great point about the "globalization" of food. It's true that people in many parts of the world are forsaking traditional diets as their economies improve. This has advantages but also disadvantages, especially when it comes to type 2 diabetes. China and India are considered in real danger because of an increase of this disease, which is a direct result of the change in eating patterns. I know I'm venturing really far off-topic, but it's a significant point.

Back to skating! I wonder whether there has been a major lady skater who went through a serious slump and returned to a high quality of skating. I suppose we could count Shizuka (the exception to almost every known rule in skating, including the one about sixteen-year-olds winning the Olympics). Anyone else?

 

[bigsisjiejie]

Back to skating! I wonder whether there has been a major lady skater who went through a serious slump and returned to a high quality of skating. I suppose we could count Shizuka (the exception to almost every known rule in skating, including the one about sixteen-year-olds winning the Olympics). Anyone else?

Guess it depends how you define "slump." I'd put Maria Butyrskaya in that category--she had some comparatively discouraging seasons in the mid 1990's including a reputedly very strained relationship with the Russian Federation, before regaining some momentum, getting back on track, and having a better time at the closeout of the decade, with a World Championship in 1999 (at 27, oldest woman to win, including beating out Michelle Kwan).

 

[seniorita]

I didnt think she got fat when I saw her in sp and fat is a stupid used word when talking about an elite athlete, sorry. My first thought, wow she has changed a lot, she is like a woman now, I really didnt recognise her! The girl is fine, she just grew up.
What I didnt like is her Lp dress, like Flatt's , they should choose the dresses to compliment their bodies, not wear something like Kostner would wear when they have different body type than her, I think it will help their lines and extention and whole effect the appropriate dress (for Rachel the appropriate colour in leggings as well).
Also Caroline looks like she doesnt like being on ice, i dont know why but I have to see more of her exhibiition to see if this is a general thing or just in competitions. If she has so good spins / spirals she should sell them!

 

[PROKOFIEV]

My best friend who lives in California has a daughter who skates where Caroline and Mirai skate. According to her, Caroline is not fat in person at all. She has a body of really healthy mature young lady and she was telling me me how TV makes a person look so much bigger. Only thing she noticed about Carolione is that she does not seem to practice intensively on the ice. Mirai gets on the ice and never waste time for practice. But Caroline had a tendency to stroke around without doing anything. (She was talking about this summer)My friend says Caroline is a skater with so much of talent and charisma. She wishes that one day something will trigger her motivation and she will start train harder. Then her body , her skating and everything will improve.. If she can fix her mule kick jumps, I am very sure she will be able to fix everything else. Maybe it takes a little time.
I just want to say, Caroline, do not give up!! GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CAROLINE!!!