How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

[ImaginaryPogue]

Should we take that into account? or should we just let the results of the upcoming Nats to decide?

Wrong conversation.

 

[Mathman]

The present rule depicts the the winner of the Nationals to be automatically a part of the Worlds Team...

The other method of selecting the Team is to have a review panel to decide who among the Ladies is consistent and good under fire irregardless of the in-house-Nats, and has shown good skating at the GPs..

Actually, that wouldn't be a bad way to do it. The National champion gets an automatic pass to worlds. For the second (and thrid) spots you could have some kind of point system. Something like

Last years Worlds: 1st place, 10 points. 2nd place, 5 points, 3rd place, 2 points.

Grand Prix Finals: 1st place, 10 points. 2nd place, 5 points. 3rd place, 2 points.

U.S. Nationals: 2nd place, 11 points. 3rd place 6 points. 4th place, 3 points.

That way you would still have U.S. Nationals as the winner take all Big Show. In fact, even more so, because now it truly is "win or go home" -- second place doesn't cut it.

The criteria for getting extra points (medaling at Worlds, medaling at GP Finals) is so stringent that a lot of the time no one would qualify, and the the U.S. silver (and bronze) medalist would automatically go, as it is now.

This would cover the situation where a defending world champion (like Lysacek last year) could still make the team with a fourth-place finish at Nationals. It would also give someone a leg up if they showed their mettle in the Grand Prix. Say, if Alissa got second in the Grand Prix final and third at U.S. Nationals, she would go to worlds over the National silver medalist with no international achievements.

On the other hand, someone who bombed Nationals (lower than fourth) could not trump the national silver medalist unless they either won world and also medalled in the Grand Prix Finals, or the other way around.

The drawback is, not everyone has a chance to compete at last years worlds. Or, for that matter, in the Grand Prix. So if you are the new whiz kid on the block, you better go all out to win Nationals.

 

[R.D.]

^ and what about skaters who take a year off, are injured, etc.? Perhaps 4CCs or something? Or just make them earn it back by competing regularly?

 

[Mathman]

Will she bring in the required points at the Worlds to allow 3 ladies to be on the Team next year? Does that matter to you?

To me, that is a secondary consideration. The primary goal at Worlds is to win.

Mirai, Rachael, and the rest did not grow up as little girls dreaming that maybe, just maybe, some day, they might go to the World figure skating championship and finish 6th. There is only one world champion. All the rest are...not the world champion.

So, does Mirai, for instance, have a chance not only to go to the world championship, but to win? Well, at last year's Worlds she was first after the short program. At the Olympics she was fourth overall, and the three ahead of her are all big question marks this year.

And if Mirai can do it, why not Rachael? Why not Alissa? Why not Ashley?

 

[Mathman]

^ and what about skaters who take a year off, are injured, etc.? Perhaps 4CCs or something? Or just make them earn it back by competing regularly?

I would say, anything over a year old doesn't count. Yeah, you might have been good once upon a time, but what have you done for me lately?

 

[Bluebonnet]

^ and what about skaters who take a year off, are injured, etc.? Perhaps 4CCs or something? Or just make them earn it back by competing regularly?

In such case, a test skate should be required and be evaluated by committee members. I thought Michelle Kwan was asked to do it in 2006 because she had to bypass the Nationals.

I also thought that Plushenko was asked by Russian Federation to do so. (Seniorita could confirm if this was correct.)

Here comes another round of pros and cons about committee ...... I think the best way is to let the committee do their job, and just follow Mathman's earlier hint that anyone could e-mail them nasty letters after January of next year if they want to. Everybody has his/her say.

 

[Jaana]

I think that the US Nationals is a good place to select the World team. Grand Prix results are kind of too early in the season to really count as Worlds are in March. Of course GPF might give some indication how a skater will succeed at the Nationals. And now for some years US ladies have had only two spots in Worlds, so I would hope that two most consistent skaters in international competitions (as those I see Nagasu and Flatt) will succeed in Nationals good enough to be selected for Worlds to earn the third spot in Worlds. That third spot is really important as because of it there will not quite as awful pressure in US Nationals as it is now for the ladies discipline.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

......... and U.S. Nationals does?

No it doesn't but argue that with the majority.

 

[PolymerBob]

Actually, that wouldn't be a bad way to do it. The National champion gets an automatic pass to worlds. For the second (and thrid) spots you could have some kind of point system. Something like

Last years Worlds: 1st place, 10 points. 2nd place, 5 points, 3rd place, 2 points.

Grand Prix Finals: 1st place, 10 points. 2nd place, 5 points. 3rd place, 2 points.

U.S. Nationals: 2nd place, 11 points. 3rd place 6 points. 4th place, 3 points.

That way you would still have U.S. Nationals as the winner take all Big Show. In fact, even more so, because now it truly is "win or go home" -- second place doesn't cut it.

I came up with a point system several months back. The problem with an automatic spot for the winner is .... what determines the winner? How much do ISU results, officially or unofficially, determine who the winner is?
( My head is starting to hurt thinking about this. )

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think that the US Nationals is a good place to select the World team. Grand Prix results are kind of too early in the season to really count as Worlds are in March. Of course GPF might give some indication how a skater will succeed at the Nationals. And now for some years US ladies have had only two spots in Worlds, so I would hope that two most consistent skaters in international competitions (as those I see Nagasu and Flatt) will succeed in Nationals good enough to be selected for Worlds to earn the third spot in Worlds. That third spot is really important as because of it there will not quite as awful pressure in US Nationals as it is now for the ladies discipline.

Sorry but I don't buy the early in the routine excuse. What ever the timing of the competition is an athlete is an athlete and should be ready for all competitions OR the athlete should not enter the competition. but then it is the only Sport which pampers its participants. No?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

In such case, a test skate should be required and be evaluated by committee members. I thought Michelle Kwan was asked to do it in 2006 because she had to bypass the Nationals.

I also thought that Plushenko was asked by Russian Federation to do so. (Seniorita could confirm if this was correct.)

Here comes another round of pros and cons about committee ...... I think the best way is to let the committee do their job, and just follow Mathman's earlier hint that anyone could e-mail them nasty letters after January of next year if they want to. Everybody has his/her say.

I am 99% sure the Committee will follow the results of the Nationals. The Committee can not prohibit the 1st place winner from going to Worlds. That's a RULE. If the Committe does not think the 2nd place skater as part of the strongest Team, it will reconsider anyway and allow the 2nd place skater to be part of the Team. It's the tradition and the argument is closed.

 

[janetfan]

Would the US Skating Championship serve any real sporting purpose if it was not also used as the World and Olympic qualifier?

If it were primarily used to showcase pretty costumes and nice music would it be little more than a pageant? Would Natls hold any excitement at all if we already more or less knew the make-up of our National team?

Would there be any reason for Amanda and Mark to have even competed last season at Natls - if the results they earned on the ice were then taken away by a "committee"?
They could have skated for pageant purposes - to wear nice costumes and try and entertain us with their skating - but I think they were competing with much more on their minds.

And wasn't it a very good thing that Mirai was sent to the Olympics last season rather than Ashley. Some want to argue that Ashley skating better in Oct and November at the GP is somehow more important than skating very well in January, a month before the Olympics.

I really believe skating is not easy to predict and basing Natl teams on what happened in the past will never be foolproof or even reliable.

Natls, due to it's time of the season and proximity to Olympics/Worlds seems to be the most logical choice. It is not foolproof either.

But atleast it is fair and lets us remember skating is not just about little girls in cute dresses and makeup - it is also a sport where the competiton determines the prize and not some federation boss or committee with their own per$onal/commercial agenda$.

I am for keeping all of that out of it and keeping it as competitive as possible.

BTW, I am a longtime Kwan fan - but was disappointed when she was given Emilie's spot on the '06 Olympic team.

Turns out the Natls competition was correct and Emily, who earned her spot on the ice also got a chance to experience the Olympics. Kwan was not up to competing at Natls and it was not rocket science to know she would have been far from her best had she skated in Torino. Thankfully she bowed out rather than trying to skate with an injury.

We all saw that Natls as the qualifier was right and the committee was wrong. Maybe they meant well - but NBC wanted Kwan and the whole thing reeked of money and politics.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

1. A number of countries use other events outside of nationals as qualifiers, but not all see a reduction in what Nationals means. In many respects, there's pleasure to be had in being the best in your nation, competing against the best your country has to offer, regardless of the roads afterwards. Would you argue that if World Championship didn't exist, that Nationals would have no need to exist either?

2. I agree that logic dictates that Nationals makes the most sense in selecting the world team. Early season wonders don't always follow through. And frankly, if you dominate the competition during the GP season, there should be no worry about Nationals - you should be good enough to take a top two/three spot.

3. The GP season is so fluke-y sometimes. Ashley Wagner got a spot at the GPF last season. But she did in large part due to Mao Asada floundering at CoR. Nationals might be fluke-y as well, but no one skater benefits or hinders by the luck of competition, etc surrounding it.

 

[janetfan]

1. A number of countries use other events outside of nationals as qualifiers, but not all see a reduction in what Nationals means. In many respects, there's pleasure to be had in being the best in your nation, competing against the best your country has to offer, regardless of the roads afterwards. Would you argue that if World Championship didn't exist, that Nationals would have no need to exist either?

2. I agree that logic dictates that Nationals makes the most sense in selecting the world team. Early season wonders don't always follow through. And frankly, if you dominate the competition during the GP season, there should be no worry about Nationals - you should be good enough to take a top two/three spot.

3. The GP season is so fluke-y sometimes. Ashley Wagner got a spot at the GPF last season. But she did in large part due to Mao Asada floundering at CoR. Nationals might be fluke-y as well, but no one skater benefits or hinders by the luck of competition, etc surrounding it.

1. If there were no WC then Natls would be just as good and even MORE important.
I like the WC - but if we only had the Olympics then it would certainly make being Natl champion - whether in USA, Canada, Russia, Japan, etc even more prestigious.

2. Mostly agree - and there is no way around it - ice is slippery - and skating can be very unpredictable.
Alissa is currently the top ranked US Lady in the GP - and yet those arguing hardest for the importance of the GP want a committee to replace her if she finsihes 1 or 2 at Natls.
What unusual logic.....:sheesh:

3. Also agree - Natls and the head to head direct competition between the skaters is a truer and more fair barometer than some of the flukiness we see at the GP.

 

[Tonichelle]

1. A number of countries use other events outside of nationals as qualifiers, but not all see a reduction in what Nationals means. In many respects, there's pleasure to be had in being the best in your nation, competing against the best your country has to offer, regardless of the roads afterwards. Would you argue that if World Championship didn't exist, that Nationals would have no need to exist either?

and yet skaters like Gordeeva and Grinkov - according to her book - didn't see the need to go to it, that it was just a break in their training, so they didn't attend knowing they were going to be named to the team anyway. Granted in their case they were the best in the world, but at the same time...

 

[R.D.]

Would the US Skating Championship serve any real sporting purpose if it was not also used as the World and Olympic qualifier?

I don't know about you guys, but I would think a National championship or medal carries a bit of prestige REGARDLESS of the event's status as an Oly trials event.

BTW, I am a longtime Kwan fan - but was disappointed when she was given Emilie's spot on the '06 Olympic team.

Turns out the Natls competition was correct and Emily, who earned her spot on the ice also got a chance to experience the Olympics. Kwan was not up to competing at Natls and it was not rocket science to know she would have been far from her best had she skated in Torino. Thankfully she bowed out rather than trying to skate with an injury.

We all saw that Natls as the qualifier was right and the committee was wrong. Maybe they meant well - but NBC wanted Kwan and the whole thing reeked of money and politics.

You know, if there was at least a video of that test skate, it would be much clearer what the motive was.

 

[Bluebonnet]

BTW, I am a longtime Kwan fan - but was disappointed when she was given Emilie's spot on the '06 Olympic team.

Turns out the Natls competition was correct and Emily, who earned her spot on the ice also got a chance to experience the Olympics. Kwan was not up to competing at Natls and it was not rocket science to know she would have been far from her best had she skated in Torino. Thankfully she bowed out rather than trying to skate with an injury.

We all saw that Natls as the qualifier was right and the committee was wrong. Maybe they meant well - but NBC wanted Kwan and the whole thing reeked of money and politics.

There was absolutely, 120% no way that USFSA could have done any way different than what they've actually done. US had to go through this and Michelle Kwan had to be the one who was first to try on the Olympic ice. The committee did the right thing at that time.

It seems to me now that we are arguing for nothing. How has this thread been generated to 19 pages and still no ending in sight? It's cute.

I agree with Joe. National Champions have earned their spots. He/She should be on the world team. The only arguement comes down to the second and the third spots. And Mathman's point system is one of the good ways to include the GP results into the consideration. If through this method, the bronze or even the silver medalists have been taken out of the world team, I'm so sorry. There is no absolute fairness. Then the nasty letters are in order. But we have to accept the results. Continue ...

 

[Tonichelle]

There was absolutely, 120% no way that USFSA could have done any way different than what they've actually done. US had to go through this and Michelle Kwan had to be the one who was first to try on the Olympic ice. The committee did the right thing at that time.

HOW was that the only course they could have taken? She didn't compete at nationals, she still had a long way to go after her test skate. They were banking on a dream, and a faulty one at that.

 

[R.D.]

Alissa is currently the top ranked US Lady in the GP - and yet those arguing hardest for the importance of the GP want a committee to replace her if she finsihes [sic] 1 or 2 at Natls.

She's made the GPF for a second time this year- and if she were to medal there, then make top 2 at Nats- I wouldn't have a problem with sending her- again. I may feel as if she may bomb again, but what she would have put out on the ice recently tells me it's a redemption of sorts. I'd be willing to give her chance #3. (See, I'm not so bad after all, am I?)

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

and yet skaters like Gordeeva and Grinkov - according to her book - didn't see the need to go to it, that it was just a break in their training, so they didn't attend knowing they were going to be named to the team anyway. Granted in their case they were the best in the world, but at the same time...

Oh, in France half the Olympic team skipped nationals (Joubert, P/B, DelSchoes) knowing the same thing. I think all were named to the team before Nationals was held. Savchenko/Szolkowy skipped their nationals last season. Yu Na Kim last competed in her nationals before she became a senior skater.