2011 Four Continents & World Championship Teams

[chuckm]

I believe Bradley, Dornbush and Miner WERE asked and they declined 4CC. Bradley and Miner have both recently recovered from pretty serious injuries. Dornbush has had an extremely busy season (two JGP events and the JGPF) and another competition before Worlds might be one too many.

One concern: ISU World Rankings. Bradley is #27, Dornbush #42 and Miner #48. These rankings may get lower after 4CC points are added for the men who participate. SP start order is based on ISU World Rankings. The earlier Dornbush and Miner start in the SP, the lower their PCS scores may be.

 

[Layfan]

I believe Bradley, Dornbush and Miner WERE asked and they declined 4CC. Bradley and Miner have both recently recovered from pretty serious injuries. Dornbush has had an extremely busy season (two JGP events and the JGPF) and another competition before Worlds might be one too many.

One concern: ISU World Rankings. Bradley is #27, Dornbush #42 and Miner #48. These rankings may get lower after 4CC points are added for the men who participate. SP start order is based on ISU World Rankings. The earlier Dornbush and Miner start in the SP, the lower their PCS scores may be.

Wow, interesting. Is the way the Olympics does it too? I always thought Mirai was underscored in her Olympic SP.

I agree it's a concern. PCS for Dornbush and Miner was already concern given they are newbies.

 

[bigsisjiejie]

Oh my bad. As bad as the IOC is, I don't mean to hang any undeserved accusations on their warty necks.



I know that the non-Olympic competitions are beyond the USOC's reach regardless. My theory is that the USFS doesn't make clear its guidelines on even non-Olympic team selection to avoid giving the USOC any ammunition in a lawsuit about the Olympics qualifier. I can't tell if you agree or disagree with that part of my theory. Can you clarify?

Agree vs disagree is rather stark choice. I think you may be working too hard to connect dots that aren't logically connectable. I thought the USFS is relatively clear on its selection process for ISU championships, which boils down to: "We will send the National Champion to Worlds, any other slots to be filled we have discretion to send who we want." Although as a matter of custom, the 'who we want' slots have normally defaulted to the next highest finishers at US Nationals, with the USFS Selection Committee apparently unable or unwilling to inject executive discretion into the mix. Whether that's the best process is subject of much debate on this board. The USOC has no relevance to this.

My understanding of the Olympic team selection by the USFS is (paraphrasing by me): "Based on a variety of criteria including results of US Nationals, we can send who we want." And yes, this leaves a lot of purposeful wiggle room for the USFS to avoid the USOC's establishment of any tentacles of control over the US Olympic figure skating team selection.

After some observation, my guess is that the USFS wants to leave itself maximum space legally possible to make decisions, then absolve itself of having to actually make any decisions. I doubt if the USFS has fending off potential USOC lawsuits as one of its top worries these days.

 

[Serious Business]

After some observation, my guess is that the USFS wants to leave itself maximum space legally possible to make decisions, then absolve itself of having to actually make any decisions. I doubt if the USFS has fending off potential USOC lawsuits as one of its top worries these days.

Thanks for clearing that up! In that case I think the USFS owes it to the athletes and fans of the sports to lay down clear established guidelines on how world teams are to be picked. A sport needs to have basic rules and fairness for fans to be vested in it.

 

[Mathman]

I think the criterion is quite clear to the skaters. Finish at the top at Nationals, go to worlds.

There seems to be a lot of "committee worship" on this board. Why would anyone want to empower a "committee" to take away what the skaters earned on the ice?

Committees, bad. Skaters, good. :yes:

 

[gimmethekick]

I think the criterion is quite clear to the skaters. Finish at the top at Nationals, go to worlds.

There seems to be a lot of "committee worship" on this board. Why would anyone want to empower a "committee" to take away what the skaters earned on the ice?

Committees, bad. Skaters, good. :yes:

I don't think anyone wants to take away what was earned or worship the committee, but what is the point of the USFSA pretending to have this big "meeting" where they decide who's going to go to the WC, if there just going to send the top 3 every time? Dornbush and Minor were very good, but I think it would be a good idea to consider sending them, along with Abbott, to the 4CC. It would at least give us some idea of how these guys would stack up internationally. I'm concerned that if we send them to Worlds now, they'll just get eaten alive. Then, next year, when these junior skaters have developed their artistry, improved their skill set, and actually have a legitimate chance of not only performing well but being scored well for their performance, one or two of them won't even be able to go because we won't have the spots for them.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think the criterion is quite clear to the skaters. Finish at the top at Nationals, go to worlds.

There seems to be a lot of "committee worship" on this board. Why would anyone want to empower a "committee" to take away what the skaters earned on the ice?

Committees, bad. Skaters, good. :yes:

You make it sound like evaluating what the skaters do on more than one ice (aka, using more than one competition) means that the skaters didn't earn it on the ice. Not sure how that computes.

 

[Serious Business]

You make it sound like evaluating what the skaters do on more than one ice (aka, using more than one competition) means that the skaters didn't earn it on the ice. Not sure how that computes.

Using a committee to do it behind closed doors with nebulous rules (if any at all) is almost the antithesis of how skaters earn their marks on the ice (except of course the ISU favors anonymous judging).

 

[Mrs. P]

You make it sound like evaluating what the skaters do on more than one ice (aka, using more than one competition) means that the skaters didn't earn it on the ice. Not sure how that computes.

Let's think of it this way -- the World Championship is one competition. It doesn't matter if you won the GPF (Czisny, Chan, Davis White, S/S), totally dropped the ball during that one circuit (Mao Asada) or if you didn't go at all (ala Yuna Kim or Virtue/Moir). What matters is how you do those two programs during that competition.

The ISU won't be saying things like "Well so-and-so had a bad skate at Worlds, but they did so well at this other competition so they should get the silver medal instead of the other guy who had a great two skates but sucked the rest of the year."

I think this is where Mathman is going with all his comments about letting the skaters going for it on one ice. You know that Nationals is where you can win it or lose it. Then you should train accordingly and strive to be consistent.

Also one should considered that this luxury of "depth of competitions" is not available to those moving up the levels. Take Leah Keiser, for instance. She was the 2010 Novice champions, but ended up placing 6th at sectionals this year, and therefore, not qualifying for nationals this year. Yes, it's not comparable -- but I make this point to stay that outside of the senior ranks and junior ranks, most only have "one competition," one chance.

Also Johnny Weir isn't the only bronze medalist who was passed on after doing poorly at Nationals:
In 1990 Holly Cook finished 3rd, but managed to get a spot on the World team. She ended up being the second highest finisher with a bronze medal. But then she went and bombed nationals in 1991. No one thought for a second that Cook should go to worlds (or maybe they did at the time, can anyone remember?) instead of Kerrigan, who won bronze and who up to that point had very little international experience.

That said, i think the USFSA does allow for exceptions, but exceptions, like anything else, should only be used for the rarest of occasions and require some special cases. (i.e Nancy getting whacked in the knee; Michelle going to 2006 Olympics due to injury but required to do a test skate later).

The one thing I do find funny with the USFSA is how they choose their Junior Worlds team. Now that is a bit inconsistent. Why send someone like Agnes Z, who has been doing seniors? It makes sense to send Christina again because she hasn't moved up yet. But then again Agnes is still within junior level, so I guess you could make the case there.

 

[Mathman]

...what is the point of the USFSA pretending to have this big "meeting" where they decide who's going to go to the WC, if there just going to send the top 3 every time?

The reason this committee exists is because that's what organizations do, they form committees.

The reason the committee has a big meeting is because that's what committees do, they have big meetings.

You make it sound like evaluating what the skaters do on more than one ice (aka, using more than one competition) means that the skaters didn't earn it on the ice. Not sure how that computes.

It is more a question of who should be allowed to arrogate to themselves this evaluative power.

There is something in me that does not love committees. I do not like dictators, I do not like Piseev. I do not like Gailhaguet. (At least, I do not like the way the Russian and French federations conduct their affairs.) I do not like a system where you win the prize by currying favor with the lord high potentate.

Who died and made "the Committee" Pope?

If there is a prize to be won, hold a competition. Come one come all.

I should add that I think this actual committee does a great job (an appropriately minimal one when it comes to selecting the world team. They also determine team envleopes, send skaters to Grand Prix events, etc.))

The people who serve are unpaid volunteers who contribute their time to their passionate love, figure skating in the U.S. Personally, I recognize only one name on the list of committee members (the athlete representative), but she is a dynamo. She just organized a sold-out showing of the movie Rise in the Detroit area. :thumbsup:

So I have no complaint about the actual committee. I think they are doing a wonderful job in not trying to throw their weight around making proclamations from on high. Keep up the good work! :yes:

 

[Trewyn]

I'm sorry if this is random; but I'm beginning to understand why Ashley is first alternate for four continents... Is it because if Gao and Zawadzki were to do 4CC they'd lose their eligibility for Jr Worlds because of the new rules? Zawadzki surely would, because she's done the Sr GP?

I hope Ashley will get to go... It would be sad if here season were to be over..

 

[demarinis5]

Anyone know if Dornbush and Miner will have skate the qualifying round at Worlds?

 

[Mathman]

No. The U.S. has three direct entries.

 

[demarinis5]

No. The U.S. has three direct entries.

Thank you.

 

[gimmethekick]

The reason this committee exists is because that's what organizations do, they form committees.

The reason the committee has a big meeting is because that's what committees do, they have big meetings.

HA HA! Fair enough.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Mrs. P, I understand that. No one is suggesting that competitions award the medals (aka, the direct prize) based on previous results. And truthfully, I agree with Mathman essentially - there's an elegance to letting all the eligible folks compete against each other for those slots. It gives Nationals more prestige. But if Nationals is in fact the be-all-and-end-all, why bother with 4CC/Worlds/Olympics etc. Why bother with international competition at all if it's essentially a three month denouement? Because it is more. The US Federation by definition should be sending those that best represent it. Is one competition really enough to determine that?

I'd also point out that the "committee" this season would have a fairly easy job. In ladies, pairs and dance, the most successful skaters would be the exact same as at Nationals, virtually corresponding to the rankings . Only men's, with it's randomness provided something different. And ideally, that should be the case - the guys you send out to compete against the world early on (and are successful) should be the best your nation has to offer.

Mrs. P, Virtue/Moir aren't National champions this year, but they are going to Worlds. Do you think that if D/W had to withdraw from Nationals, that spot should go to the Hubbells? Belbin/Agosto were able to skate at Worlds 09 despite missing Nationals. Is that wrong?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't think anyone wants to take away what was earned or worship the committee, but what is the point of the USFSA pretending to have this big "meeting" where they decide who's going to go to the WC, if there just going to send the top 3 every time? Dornbush and Minor were very good, but I think it would be a good idea to consider sending them, along with Abbott, to the 4CC. It would at least give us some idea of how these guys would stack up internationally. I'm concerned that if we send them to Worlds now, they'll just get eaten alive. Then, next year, when these junior skaters have developed their artistry, improved their skill set, and actually have a legitimate chance of not only performing well but being scored well for their performance, one or two of them won't even be able to go because we won't have the spots for them.

It's ok, MM is very hard pressed on the one comp tells all about the skaters. He is one of the leading adversaries of sending in the strongest team to Worlds unless it shows up in the Nats. Has concern over the Committee's honesty, but not the Tech Callers.

As much as I admire Bradley, I do not believe international judges will appreciate his humor.
The smaller comps through the season did not show Miner as being top notch but he gave a very impressive Nats performance of determination which is what I look for as part of the strongest team. Likewise, with all his successes throughout the season, Dorbush should lead the Team.

I would replace Bradley with Abbott, but that selection has not been made so I'll root for the Team as is.

 

[Spun Silver]

As much as I admire Bradley, I do not believe international judges will appreciate his humor.

I think it all depends on how he skates (as I think MM has said). If he hits the quads and 3As AND is cute, no problem. They've liked Contesti, Preaubert and Murakami. But he'll have to hit the jumps. I'm fairly hopeful about Ryan even though I don't think he should have won Nationals. He has high-point programs and the crowd will be on his side. After a year out of competition, Nats was his warmup and Worlds will be his peak - let's hope.

Likewise, with all his successes throughout the season, Dorbush should lead the Team.

Yes. Make way for the next generation. But he can do just fine from the #2 spot. I'm hoping for a *** moment on the part of the Worlds judges for Richard! [/QUOTE]

ETA: Hmm, I just got auto-edited for indecency. That was a 3 letter acronym starting with W.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
Maybe I have been too hard on Bradley, but then again, I have seen him in International Comps before and his humor just doesn't go over as well. If he hits the quad toe and combo, so will Oda, Chan, Joubert and many iffys like Verner. It will be expected of Bradley to hit his because the humor won't make up for it. I also do not see the stroking in his skating, particularly the Mozart number. The aforementioned boys all have lots of better flow over the ice than Ryan.

You and me both are pulling for Richard. I believe the International judges will make a note of him for next season.

 

[Spun Silver]

^^^
Maybe I have been too hard on Bradley, but then again, I have seen him in International Comps before and his humor just doesn't go over as well. If he hits the quad toe and combo, so will Oda, Chan, Joubert and many iffys like Verner. It will be expected of Bradley to hit his because the humor won't make up for it. I also do not see the stroking in his skating, particularly the Mozart number. The aforementioned boys all have lots of better flow over the ice than Ryan.

Oh, but that was before he was US Champion. Now they'll know he's famous for his humor and they'll love him. But only if he hits the jumps. I agree, he won't get the PCS scores that he did here.

Don't you think it's better for Richard mentally not to go in as US champ? That would be some insane pressure. Hopefully he has just the right amount now - he's going to Worlds and he's got to be a little mad that he's not going in as No. 1 because the sentimental favorite was overscored.