At Worlds last year, she had one of her "bad days" and she got a 65 in the PCS portion for her FS. No one else in the ladies was coming close to that range during the Grand Prix this season. In fact, hitting 60 was already a feat. As a Olympic champ, she does have an advantage over others in terms of reputation. The same can be said for Virtue/Moir. This is not necessarily a bad thing since there are reasons for her having a higher reputation, which you obviously have listed in your argument.
Who Can put the Pressure on last years medalsist ladies Champions?
- Thread starter Skatetomusic
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At Worlds last year, she had one of her "bad days" and she got a 65 in the PCS portion for her FS. No one else in the ladies was coming close to that range during the Grand Prix this season. In fact, hitting 60 was already a feat. As a Olympic champ, she does have an advantage over others in terms of reputation. The same can be said for Virtue/Moir. This is not necessarily a bad thing since there are reasons for her having a higher reputation, which you obviously have listed in your argument.
I don't quite understand this rep thing.
How you skated yesterday has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to do with how you will skate today.
Rep should be abolished. Otherwise, why bother to hold the competition? Just FedEx the Gold to whomever is statistically favored to win.
How you skated yesterday has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to do with how you will skate today.
Rep should be abolished. Otherwise, why bother to hold the competition? Just FedEx the Gold to whomever is statistically favored to win.
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Only in an ideal skating world would that happen!
I think reputation comes into play because the top skaters are known to have better skating skills and choreography (to an extent) than the rest of the field. However, I do think the marks should vary in the execution and performance sections depending on the performance on that day.
"Known to have"?? Come on man- it's like giving the LA Lakers an automatic 20-point lead over, say, the Memphis Grizzlies to start the game because the Lakers are "known to be" a better team. So why is the game being played? PROVE IT TO ME!!! PROVE that you're the better team! (Now, as far as refs go, that's an aside and beyond the scope of my point.)
Why is a skating competition held? To see who is...the BEST skater, right? let me re-phrase that so it's clear...to see who is the BEST skater THAT NIGHT, right? When you throw in something as arbitrary as "reputation" in the mix...no wonder people think the results are fixed. I've been this close to quitting FS altogether due to certain skaters being propped up on bad days, receiving inflated scores even when someone who may not have the "clout" outskates them.
Why is a skating competition held? To see who is...the BEST skater, right? let me re-phrase that so it's clear...to see who is the BEST skater THAT NIGHT, right? When you throw in something as arbitrary as "reputation" in the mix...no wonder people think the results are fixed. I've been this close to quitting FS altogether due to certain skaters being propped up on bad days, receiving inflated scores even when someone who may not have the "clout" outskates them.
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- May 15, 2009
If Miki, Mao or Yuna do not skate well enough to medal I would look at Alissa and Kanako.
Kanako won a GP gold and a bronze at the GPF and another bronze at Natls. So far in her first season as a senior she has shown good consistency and the abilty to win medals. Sometimes the younger skaters don't feel the nerves as much and with lower expectations they are not under as much pressure.
I look for Kanako to have a top 5-6 finish, but if a podium spot opens up I would not be surprised if she claimed it.
I think this young Lady is a good competitor under pressure and that can never be overlooked.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Yu-na Kim has never finished off the podium. Never. Ever. Not in beginners, not in novices, not in juniors, not in seniors. Not in any grand prix event or junior or senior grand prix final, not in any four continents, not in any world championship, not in the Olympics. Not ever. Ever.
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- Dec 29, 2004
Yu-na Kim has never finished off the podium. Never. Ever. Not in beginners, not in novices, not in juniors, not in seniors. Not in any grand prix event or junior or senior grand prix final, not in any four continents, not in any world championship, not in the Olympics. Not ever. Ever.
Didn't say podium finishes. I said consistent. BIG difference.
But on a side note: its quite interesting being on the receiving end of one of your '"I'm waayyy too nice to be rude but your opinion is WACK!" comments... so glad to be back!!!:yay::yay:
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- Jan 23, 2004
I think the general consensus here is that YuNa most probably will finish on the podium. I am just not sure it will be the top spot. I am not disputing the fact that YuNa has the talent and skills to win. My predictions are based on what I have seen take place on the ice this season.
Yu-na Kim has never finished off the podium. Never. Ever. Not in beginners, not in novices, not in juniors, not in seniors. Not in any grand prix event or junior or senior grand prix final, not in any four continents, not in any world championship, not in the Olympics. Not ever. Ever.
For real, Math? Wow. What a statistic. No wonder she's considered a phenomenon. When you put it like that, she's like the Edwin Moses of skating.
For myself, I hope she's every bit as good this year as she ever was. I love to see people rise to the occasion. I also want Mao to finish on the podium. So I'll leave the third spot open for chance and surprises (and maybe Alissa!), but I do hope those two ladies shine as brightly as they are capable of.
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- Oct 19, 2009
Yep. We can fairly say that YuNa is one of the most consistent podium finishers. Don't know how that point of yours got misinterpreted...sometimes I feel that some people (not anyone in particular) look for reasons to kind of put her down. I'm guessing that the lavish praise of YuNa fans contribute to making others want to do that, but YuNa's accomplishments and track record stand on their own.
hwell:
'Scuse me while I geek out on CoP/IJS stats. 
Personally, I find the numbers fascinating and a heck of a lot more insightful than the meaningless placeholders under 6.0. (Though, I loved the beauty of a 6.0...)
Your original claim has two parts: 1) Yu-Na has a reputation that puts her into medal contention even on her worst days and 2) this is "more so than other skaters." So she got 65 at last year's Worlds for one of her own weaker skates and this year's ladies haven't...but I don't see how this supports your argument. The question is did PCS--which is the mark that is more subjective than TES, and more susceptible to influence by reputation--place her into medal contention when she otherwise would not have been? And if so, has this happened more frequently than other skaters? The answer is a resounding no to both questions.
At 2010 Worlds, Yu-Na won the silver with a margin of 12 points over 3rd, and was very far off from 1st by a margin of 7 points. You could take away 12 points from her PCS, leaving her with the PCS total that Ksenia Makarova (8th in the LP) or Rachael Flatt (9th in the LP) got, and Yu-Na still would have won the silver. Why wouldn't taking away such a large chunk of PCS make a difference in the medal result? First, because this competition stunk, and a large number of top skaters had "bad days." :sheesh: Second, because even in one of Yu-Na's "bad days" (which is relatively speaking, of course), she accomplished difficult jumps and combinations that no other skater at that competition (or this season, actually) did: 3Lz/3T, spread eagle into a 2A/3T, Ina Bauer into a 2A/2T/2Lo, which helped her base value, garnered GOE and contributed to a high technical score, high enough to completely justify her ending placement on the podium, with or without any help from the judges in components. Yu-Na's overall placement (2nd) is identical to her TES-only placement (2nd).
Even if it hadn't been the same, Yu-Na, like other top skaters, arguably does deserve high components even if a performance has a few mistakes, but I don't have to make that argument because Yu-Na has earned her results technically without needing the generosity of the judges (i.e. reputation points) to boost her overall. I doubt you will be able to find a single past competition where Yu-Na earned a higher placement on the podium than what her overall TES total indicated, even on any of her bad days, which she hasn't had a lot of. Not Worlds 2010, Skate America 2009, or 2008 GPF. Her TES score placement matched her podium finish every time, with the only few exceptions being where she was arguably underscored in components and got a lower podium finish than her TES placement.
But how about other skaters? Other skaters this season, non-Olympic champions, have been quite generously rewarded in components when their performances appeared less than worthy. And as a matter of fact, their placement would have been different had they not received higher PCS versus other skaters who had a higher TES.
A few examples:
Patrick Chan: 2010 Skate Canada (TES placement = 3rd; actual = 1st)
Daisuke Takahashi: 2010 GPF (TES pl = 6th; actual = 4th)
Mao Asada: 2010 NHK Trophy (TES pl = 11th; actual = 8th)
Alissa Czisny: 2010 Trophee Eric Bompard (TES pl = 5th; actual = 3rd)
Carolina Kostner: 2009 Worlds, 2010 Olympics
eek
I tried to pick a cross-section of skaters, as I am not trying to single anyone out. This kind of thing does happen and not just for Olympic champions, and it is not necessarily bad (see below). But the evidence shows that it happens more frequently for non-Olympic champions than the current ladies Olympic champion, and there are more examples out there.
Just be clear: the skaters above had total TES scores (SP+LP) that indicated a different placement than what they actually ended up getting, which indicates that PCS played a significant part in positively improving that skater's placement. This does not necessarily mean that the placement was unearned or that they did not deserve high PCS, it just means their placement relied more on the judges' determination that they deserved higher components than other skaters who delivered more technical content. It is very well possible that they deserved every point of that PCS, but that is a separate debate.
But my point is that every one of the skaters above has arguably benefited in terms of placement from alleged "reputation" scoring by the judges in terms of final placement, more so than Yu-Na ever did. Actually, the only part of the original argument that I can agree with is that Yu-Na has a reputation, period. But it certainly hasn't put her into medal contention by itself and it certainly is not more of a factor than for other skaters.
Personally, I find the numbers fascinating and a heck of a lot more insightful than the meaningless placeholders under 6.0. (Though, I loved the beauty of a 6.0...) Your original claim has two parts: 1) Yu-Na has a reputation that puts her into medal contention even on her worst days and 2) this is "more so than other skaters." So she got 65 at last year's Worlds for one of her own weaker skates and this year's ladies haven't...but I don't see how this supports your argument. The question is did PCS--which is the mark that is more subjective than TES, and more susceptible to influence by reputation--place her into medal contention when she otherwise would not have been? And if so, has this happened more frequently than other skaters? The answer is a resounding no to both questions.
At 2010 Worlds, Yu-Na won the silver with a margin of 12 points over 3rd, and was very far off from 1st by a margin of 7 points. You could take away 12 points from her PCS, leaving her with the PCS total that Ksenia Makarova (8th in the LP) or Rachael Flatt (9th in the LP) got, and Yu-Na still would have won the silver. Why wouldn't taking away such a large chunk of PCS make a difference in the medal result? First, because this competition stunk, and a large number of top skaters had "bad days." :sheesh: Second, because even in one of Yu-Na's "bad days" (which is relatively speaking, of course), she accomplished difficult jumps and combinations that no other skater at that competition (or this season, actually) did: 3Lz/3T, spread eagle into a 2A/3T, Ina Bauer into a 2A/2T/2Lo, which helped her base value, garnered GOE and contributed to a high technical score, high enough to completely justify her ending placement on the podium, with or without any help from the judges in components. Yu-Na's overall placement (2nd) is identical to her TES-only placement (2nd).
Even if it hadn't been the same, Yu-Na, like other top skaters, arguably does deserve high components even if a performance has a few mistakes, but I don't have to make that argument because Yu-Na has earned her results technically without needing the generosity of the judges (i.e. reputation points) to boost her overall. I doubt you will be able to find a single past competition where Yu-Na earned a higher placement on the podium than what her overall TES total indicated, even on any of her bad days, which she hasn't had a lot of. Not Worlds 2010, Skate America 2009, or 2008 GPF. Her TES score placement matched her podium finish every time, with the only few exceptions being where she was arguably underscored in components and got a lower podium finish than her TES placement.
But how about other skaters? Other skaters this season, non-Olympic champions, have been quite generously rewarded in components when their performances appeared less than worthy. And as a matter of fact, their placement would have been different had they not received higher PCS versus other skaters who had a higher TES.
A few examples:
Patrick Chan: 2010 Skate Canada (TES placement = 3rd; actual = 1st)
Daisuke Takahashi: 2010 GPF (TES pl = 6th; actual = 4th)
Mao Asada: 2010 NHK Trophy (TES pl = 11th; actual = 8th)
Alissa Czisny: 2010 Trophee Eric Bompard (TES pl = 5th; actual = 3rd)
Carolina Kostner: 2009 Worlds, 2010 Olympics
eekI tried to pick a cross-section of skaters, as I am not trying to single anyone out. This kind of thing does happen and not just for Olympic champions, and it is not necessarily bad (see below). But the evidence shows that it happens more frequently for non-Olympic champions than the current ladies Olympic champion, and there are more examples out there.
Just be clear: the skaters above had total TES scores (SP+LP) that indicated a different placement than what they actually ended up getting, which indicates that PCS played a significant part in positively improving that skater's placement. This does not necessarily mean that the placement was unearned or that they did not deserve high PCS, it just means their placement relied more on the judges' determination that they deserved higher components than other skaters who delivered more technical content. It is very well possible that they deserved every point of that PCS, but that is a separate debate.
But my point is that every one of the skaters above has arguably benefited in terms of placement from alleged "reputation" scoring by the judges in terms of final placement, more so than Yu-Na ever did. Actually, the only part of the original argument that I can agree with is that Yu-Na has a reputation, period. But it certainly hasn't put her into medal contention by itself and it certainly is not more of a factor than for other skaters.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
I think Alissa can land in the broze medal spot this year. So often that 3rd spot goes to an unexpected skater (like Laura last year) and Alissia proved that she is being taken seriously by the International Judges at the GPF this season. If she skates clean, it won't be that easy to beat her unless you are Mao or yu-na.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
Virtue and Moir will win if they skate clean imo. I hope both they and Marlie skate well and that Marlie wins this one, but I don't see Voir placing below them unless they make a drastic error somewhere. Yes, they have not competed all season, but their SD at 4cc seemed to be very well received. Their coaches know what's up.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
This is becoming a prediction thread. No?
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
If both are clean, the judges will give D/W the benefit of the doubt in PCS, I think.
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- Nov 12, 2009
Miki and Kanako are much more consistent with their jumps than Alissa this season, and will get comparable PCS, so I think it's more likely Alissa will finish in the 4th-6th range. Of course, Miki and Kanako are capable of bombing, but I don't think they will, based on the way they have been performing recently. With Miki not going for the 3-3 or 3f in the SP, I'm pretty convinced she'll skate two very solid programs and land on the podium. Alissa doesn't get great GOE on her jumps and doesn't always rotate them either. I tend to think she'll finish ahead of Rachael and Kiira, though, and as for Carolina I'm not even going to guess.
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2008
ITA. What holding Alissa always has been her jump. Even if she didn't fall, her jumps are prone to underrotation. On average she falls and/or < jump at least once (of course she did a few programs with 6 triples) and in world championship she cann't afford this kind of mistake.
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- Nov 8, 2008
On one though, I hope Kanako win the title so everyone can shutup about the whole Yuna-Mao-Miki cat fight. lol
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