Flutzing

[drivingmissdaisy]

Watching some of the programs from the early 90s, I noticed that flutzing seemed to not be a problem at all for that generation of skaters. Yamaguchi, Ito, Kerrigan, Bonaly, Hubert, Baiul, Lu, Harding, Sato and Szewczenko all had correct lutz technique (from what I can tell). Why did things go wrong for the generations after that? Proper lutz technique seems to be the exception rather than the norm now, and I have no idea why.

 

[Vash01]

Good question. I would like to know too. Add to the list of correct lutz technique (edge):

Viktoria Volchkova
Maria Butyrskaya

Most of the skaters you mentioned had done some figures, even though it was not their strength. Baiul may be the only one from the no-CF era (Bonaly was skating in 1989, which was the last year for CF in competitions- in her case though she did not use edges in her skating, so it's a N/A, sort of). I am just wondering if the lack of correctness of edge on the lutz may have to do with the lack of doing compulsory figures, and getting into jumps too soon?

 

[dorispulaski]

Volchkova had a lovely lutz, but her flip was indistinguishable from it.

In those days, no one ever mentioned it when a skater had a "lip".

 

[gkelly]

I think figures was a big part of it.

I think another part was that skaters who couldn't do a proper triple lutz often didn't do any triple lutz at all. You've just named probably close to half the skaters who were trying triple lutzes at all as of 1992. (Plus Szewczenko, who didn't have it yet as of 93)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Yeah, figures must have been a big part of it because a very high percentage of skaters attempting lutzes back then were doing them with the correct take-off edge. Other than Marina Kiehlmann, who started off roller skating, I cannot think of another skater who flutzed.

One of the first people I noticed with a flutz was Bobek, and I actually remember at Nationals one year during her program Dick and Peggy were having a discussion about whether her lutz attempt was a flip or a lutz. Maybe the term "flutz" hadn't been coined until 1997, when Tara was criticized for her entrance.

 

[Vash01]

Volchkova had a lovely lutz, but her flip was indistinguishable from it.

In those days, no one ever mentioned it when a skater had a "lip".

Sokolova had the same problem with her flip. It was badly 'lip'ed. I don't remember her Lutz but I suspect she did it from the correct edge, since it seems she could get on the outside edge easily, but not on the inside (jump entrances)

 

[gmyers]

Was the flutz term around for Bobek? Why would the people be joking about her doing a "triple bobek" if the term flutz was around?

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes. In fact, the word "flutz" hit the commentary circuit just so commentators could use it about Bobek.

And it's interesting to remember Kielmann flutzed...as did Tara...I wonder whether starting in roller skatering (or perhaps just learning ice skating lutzes later in life as a result of starting in roller skating) had an effect?

 

[gkelly]

Was the flutz term around for Bobek? Why would the people be joking about her doing a "triple bobek" if the term flutz was around?

That term had been used in the skating world for years before Bobek hit seniors. But, as Doris Pulaski says, it hadn't been used in television commentary before that. Mostly because the skaters who had that problem didn't tend to make it to the top when double lutzes were all the ladies were doing.

But when it started being mentioned on TV, and also about the same time when the Internet allowed fans who had never set foot in a local rink to interact with people who spent their lives there, then some of the rink jargon started seeping into fan use. As far as I can tell, the "lip" term went the other way, with fans using it first online and then some coaches etc. picking it up in the actual training context.

 

[mskater93]

That's not completely true about figures as I have a friend who passed her 7th figure and flutzes (she knows it too) repeatedly. She also has had 5 girls, which might contribute to the Flutzing.

But, most skaters who pushed to pass at least some figure tests have better control of their edges than those who didn't. While MIF try and mimic the edge quality, nothing does. When I am having a particularly tough time with something, I will take it back to patch to fix it.

 

[Dragonlady]

There are two reasons for the proliferation of flutzes: Figures and age.

Skaters who grew up doing figures have much better blade control skills which enabled them to hold the outside edge on the take-off. Once skaters stopped training figures, they spent more time jumping and they were doing triple jumps at a much younger age than in the past. Pre-pubescent girls lacked the upper body strength to ride and hold the outside edge, which takes quite a bit strength. This trend to younger skaters attempting the 3Z resulted in an epidemic of flutzing, especially in the US where there was a lot of emphasis on very young girls with 7-triple programs.

As long as judges didn't deduct much for the flutz, it was worthwhile for coaches to turn a blind eye to it but with CoP punishing wrong-edge take-offs quite harshly, it now behoves the coaches to teach the girls the correct technique in the first place.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think it is going to be so interesting to see the next generation of skaters and see how their jumps develop. Clearly, the youngsters will not be spending nearly the amount of time on figures as they have in the past. I'm guessing if we do see lutzes taken off from the proper edge, the edge will not be held for long. (Kind of in the way Irina's lutz went from taking off in the corner after holding an edge prior to 1999 to taking off on the side from an abbreviated edge.) I always figured that made the jump harder because I thought skaters did that to precede the jump with footwork, kind of how Michelle would do. But now understanding how difficult edge control is, maybe a classic lutz entrance is harder, or at least requires better skating fundamentals. Unfortunately, the COP rewards footwork over control leading into any jump so we may not see classic lutzes in the future (and I think it's too bad, because skaters like Baiul, Ito, and Malinina really soared on their beautiful lutzes).

 

[gkelly]

Unfortunately, the COP rewards footwork over control leading into any jump so we may not see classic lutzes in the future (and I think it's too bad, because skaters like Baiul, Ito, and Malinina really soared on their beautiful lutzes).

I think it rewards both.

The tech panel will call takeoff edges that are unclear or clearly wrong and judges are supposed to reduce their GOEs, so the skater can't get away with bad takeoffs just because of preceding footwork. A flutz like Bobek's that really soared and was quite beautiful when landed IMO is still going to get negative GOE in the new system because it also really clearly changed edge.

On the other hand, preceding footwork that emphasizes a strong outside edge takeoff would be a good incentive for judges to give positive GOE. Or a preceding move like a spiral or spread eagle that really emphasizes the edge, although one such move alone would not be enough for the solo jump in a short program. If the skater can combine a strong entry edge with some other difficulty, why wouldn't that be rewarded?

 

[mskater93]

Kim has a classic entry Lutz, however, she often gets called on her flip for an edge.

I don't have any problem with a skater having a short entry edge to the Lutz or flip as long as that edge is correct.

 

[Dragonlady]

I think it is going to be so interesting to see the next generation of skaters and see how their jumps develop. Clearly, the youngsters will not be spending nearly the amount of time on figures as they have in the past. I'm guessing if we do see lutzes taken off from the proper edge, the edge will not be held for long. (Kind of in the way Irina's lutz went from taking off in the corner after holding an edge prior to 1999 to taking off on the side from an abbreviated edge.) I always figured that made the jump harder because I thought skaters did that to precede the jump with footwork, kind of how Michelle would do. But now understanding how difficult edge control is, maybe a classic lutz entrance is harder, or at least requires better skating fundamentals. Unfortunately, the COP rewards footwork over control leading into any jump so we may not see classic lutzes in the future (and I think it's too bad, because skaters like Baiul, Ito, and Malinina really soared on their beautiful lutzes).

I believe you're mistaken. Because of the -2 GoE the skaters are getting for a wrong-edge take-off, skaters can ill afford the loss of points so what we're seeing is skaters relearning their lutz to correct the take-off edge. With events being decided by a point or two, every little point counts and if you’re doing a lutz in the SP and two in the LP, that’s 6 points over the course of the competition.

As for your assertion about CoP valuing footwork, it is that footwork that is teaching skaters the blade control they used to learn doing figures. In fact, the Japanese federation is recommending that skaters be taught figures so that they have better blade control for the footwork and spins.

I’m happy to see the true lutz coming back, and skaters making an effort to do it properly.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I'm also happy to see lutzes starting to be done properly again, and I think wrong edge take-offs should be penalized because a flutz is a flip, and it should count towards your allotment of flips in your program (1 or 2, depending on the other triples you do).

I don't necessarily agree about footwork teaching blade control, at least how footwork is done these days. In the past, you saw skaters fly across the ice and using edges, even accelerating across the ice like Yuka Sato. Because the footwork sequences have to be so intricate now and contain some elements that really don't demonstrate mastery of skating skills, you have skaters taking 30 or 40 seconds to sludge across the ice twizzling, illusioning and toe-picking their way from one end to the other. In their own way, I think these sequences are as difficult as the fast footwork sequences of years past. But I don't think it demonstrates edge control because the deep edges aren't held for any period of time, nor are they done in conjunction with speed across the ice.

 

[mskater93]

Clearly you haven't done one of the current leveled step sequences. Previous footwork under 6.0, you could pick a couple turns to do along with some toe pick steps and a couple steps like Mohawks or Choctaws to fullfill the footwork requirement of a step sequence at whatever pace you thought you could control it. Current step sequences LOOK harder to execute because they actually really ARE more difficult to execute from my experience as a skater. Now, when you construct a leveled step sequence, you have to consider which turns you are going to do (and to get anything above a level 1, it has to be 5-6 types of turns from three, bracket, rocker, counter, loop, twizzles and 3-4 types of steps from Mohawks, Choctaws, Chasses, toe steps...) and which direction you are going to turn them (needs to be balanced between CW and CCW). The tech panel is particular about reviewing the quality of the turns and if the counters you planned change edge before turning, it's going to be called a three turn which reduces your variety of turns. The reason why the step sequences crawl is:
1) skaters are trying to show depth of edge on the turns to show clarity and avoid reviews
2) skaters are trying to complete the turns correctly (not pre-changing edge counters, brackets, and rockers)
3) to cram as much stuff as is required to get the higher levels, the skater HAS to crawl and compact as much as possible
4) the requirement for body motion hinders a skater's ability to fly through the step sequence

I like the direction of the second men's step sequence to be unleveled and choreographic (and the ladies' spiral sequence, too) and I would like to see ALL the step sequences to be unleveled and just have some basic requirements (x number of turns, x number of steps) with the GOE really weighting the difference between a good step sequence well connected to the ideal of the program and one that is there because it's required.

Most leveled step sequences are totally disconnected from the music trying to hit the requisite turns and steps along with seizure-like body motion to go with it or they contain 107 power pulls to move down the ice on one foot at least 1/2 of the step sequence. It's like trying to quantify how many shades of blue VanGogh used in Starry Night when you put all these requirements on the step sequence...

 

[gkelly]

You can look at Yuka Sato and a handful of other skaters in the 80s and 90s as an example of how quick step sequences should be done to demonstrate blade control, but even those sequences tended to use shallower edges and less variety of turns than is currently the case. Quickness and deep edges don't really go together.

Look at the majority of step sequences in the 90s, and you won't really see the same average mastery of skating skills that you see today in the slower, more complicated sequences. A lot of those pre-IJS sequences relied heavily on toe steps, half-jumps, and non-turning steps like cross-behinds. All of which are still useful in IJS to increase the "variety of steps" requirement for higher levels but do nothing to help the "variety of turns" requirement, which almost no pre-IJS sequences would ever meet.

To earn higher levels now, it is required to demonstrate some one-foot turns that are not three turns (or twizzles in the good direction, which were also somewhat common pre-IJS). There are a lot more brackets, counters, rockers, and loops being done in step sequences now than earlier eras. And to get credit for them, the entry and exit edges have to be recognizable. So you'll see a lot of skaters today who try to do those turns, can't hold the exits, and don't get credit for them. But you'll also see skaters who do hold them.

In the 90s, most skaters didn't try to hold exits of more than one non-three turn in a step sequence, because it wasn't easy for them to do so and also keep up speed, and the speed was more valued at the time.

Going back to the 80s or earlier, the skaters were better at showing clear edges and turns in their step sequences because they had all that figures training under their belt as well. But the design of the step sequences was usually not geared toward showing deep edges or difficult turns the way it is now. They showed those skills in the figures and sometimes in the in-between skating, and if they had strong edges than that strength supported their attempts at quickness in the step sequences with good edge quality.

To put it another way, the step sequences are designed to showcase deep edges and difficulty and variety of turns in ways that step sequences of the past were never designed to do. That means that the skaters who don't have the best edges and turn control still have to try to show them if they want higher levels. But the best skaters have both more difficulty and similar quality compared to their counterparts of 20 years ago. What they might not have is the quickness or musicality of the skaters who were best known for those qualities in their step sequences, because those qualities are not required to earn levels -- just GOEs. And because the levels are more objective, most skaters tend to aim at raising the levels first and worry about the quality afterward.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Hah I am very grateful not to have tried one of these step sequences, and I certainly don't envy the tech panel charged with having to examine the footwork in as great detail as you so kindly explained. (And if you are doing an illusion, please be careful! That move looks like a face-plant just waiting to happen )

Like you, I don't find the footwork that attains high levels entertaining at all. There is just too much going on and it rarely compliments the music. Unleveling, or at least reducing the quantity of moves needed to earn a higher level, seems like a terrific solution from a performance standpoint.

 

[BackStage Barbie]

Sarah Hughes was also known for her flutzing, it was highly discussed circa the 2002 Olympics. Here's my question, if a skater flutzes, why can't it be scored as a flip? Same thing with a lip being scored as a lutz.