All Things Canadian Ice Dance

[chuckm]

Agree the top 2 were WAY overscored.

Orford / Williams were fast but a bit sloppy. They have improved since the JGP, but not that much (they scored mid-70s in their best JGP performance).

I thought Gilles / Poirier were a bit ragged in their transitional moves and their spin was awful. Their music was fun, but I didn't like her costume which tended to make her look taller than Paul. I also got the feeling she was trying REAL hard to keep up with him.

I wonder if the inflated marks (especially for G/P) are intended to justify inflation of W/P's scores at Nationals. I wouldn't be surprised to see W/P break 100 on their FD at Nationals, with V/M 12-15 points higher.

 

[wasabi]

Agree the top 2 were WAY overscored.

Orford / Williams were fast but a bit sloppy. They have improved since the JGP, but not that much (they scored mid-70s in their best JGP performance).

I thought Gilles / Poirier were a bit ragged in their transitional moves and their spin was awful. Their music was fun, but I didn't like her costume which tended to make her look taller than Paul. I also got the feeling she was trying REAL hard to keep up with him.

I wonder if the inflated marks (especially for G/P) are intended to justify inflation of W/P's scores at Nationals. I wouldn't be surprised to see W/P break 100 on their FD at Nationals, with V/M 12-15 points higher.

W/P were very close to 100 internationally, so breaking 100 at Nationals would not be to surprising assuming they are going to continue improving their performances. On the other hand G/P should be not be anywhere that close to W/P. It is an insult to W/P. And G/P marks are HUGELY inflated for all the reasons mentioned above and in earlier posts.

 

[Ravensque]

The marks at Nats are somewhat irrelevent (any Nats, not just here in Canada). It's the placements that are of the utmost importance. G/P, however nice and fun they are, are not up to the level of W/P this year, but I would think that they might be a respectable 3rd or 4th at Nats...........think?

 

[scs]

Does anyone know why the new team of Kylie Knight and Allan Stoll did not compete?

 

[callalily]

The marks at Nats are somewhat irrelevent (any Nats, not just here in Canada). It's the placements that are of the utmost importance. G/P, however nice and fun they are, are not up to the level of W/P this year, but I would think that they might be a respectable 3rd or 4th at Nats...........think?

Top 5 yes, but it's the comparison with Ralph/Hill and Paul/Islam that will be interesting, IMO. Due to injury issues, Paul/Islam haven't been able to show their best work this year, but hopefully they will be in good shape by Nationals. They are lovely skaters. Ralph/Hill have been improving too. I get the impression that Gilles/Poirier are being welcomed with great fanfare. I hope that Ralph/Hill and Paul/Islam aren't lost in the shuffle.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Wow..this is the first chance I've had to jump in and spout.. Where to begin...

The Challenge marks are so misleading, it makes me want to scream. I know, we can say the placements are what counts..but I think the marks do create a perception. The trouble is , if perception counts (to whatever degree ) , there can also be a negative backlash when that perception comes up against reality.. I mean, not only are the international marks going to eventually level the playing field, which is fine ... but is there not the possibility of a certain amount of resentment coming into play ? ( As in , Have they been trying to sell us a bill of goods ? How dare they ? Take that ! ) I also know that with CoP , that sort of thing can't be really flagrant at the int'l level , either for outrageously marking up or down .. but when the placements are sometimes measured in tenths of a point , surely it can still come into play.

In the past some kind soul ( I forget who ) explained that there was a slight difference in the way Canada scored domestically as opposed to the ISU arrangement which explained, some inflation ( but not as much as we've seen here )...What with the ISU tinkering, that may not be the case any more , I'm not sure.

Whatever the case , anyone looking at these scores would have to think the skaters performed much better than what we saw on the ice. This can be used to contribute to the sort of fanfare callalily refers to . ( and to which I'm so opposed :scowl: )

I quite disliked G/P's SD, couldn't see much latin in it ( really dislike the music choices ), and agree with NorthernDancers that their FD seems like a show piece, a succession of tricks , and not really a dance... I think they're shaping up pretty well together, but there's not the sense of togetherness that we've seen with some new couples... e.g. Hubbell and Donohue , in the US , or that P/I displayed when they came together in Jr.'s. There's promise there , but at the moment, it's outweighed by hype.

I'm off to dog walk , but I do have more spouting to do.

 

[skatingfan04]

I quite disliked G/P's SD, couldn't see much latin in it ( really dislike the music choices ), and agree with NorthernDancers that their FD seems like a show piece, a succession of tricks , and not really a dance... I think they're shaping up pretty well together, but there's not the sense of togetherness that we've seen with some new couples... e.g. Hubbell and Donohue , in the US , or that P/I displayed when they came together in Jr.'s. There's promise there , but at the moment, it's outweighed by hype.

I was going to post about G/P, but there's no need. You've basically taken the words right out of my mouth.

Since G/P are ineligable for worlds this season, as far as I know, so the fight for that last world team spot will fall to R/H vs. P/I. I still don't think that R/H could ever beat a healthy P/I, but the fact of the matter is P/I are not healthy. I caught an interview that they had with CTV news earlier this week, and it seems that the injury she suffered at NHK has caused some trouble. It seems that she pulled a muscle in addition to recieving stitches, and that they are once again having to scale back their training to accomodate. One of their coaches also said that they have had to re-work some choreography because she is still unable to do a lot of the moves that require a lot of flexibility on her part. Unfortunatly for them, Paul's flexibility is one of their best assets. Honestly, this season has just been a nightmare for these two:disapp:. They're becoming the Dube/Davison of Canadian ice dance. I still say that if they skate clean and with some confidence at nationals they can overtake R/H, but I guess we'll have to wait and see what type of shape she's in.

 

[jcoates]

My only comment on the FD apart from what others have written is that this dance and so many others this season seem to have missed the mark of what the judges are really looking for, which is actual dancing on skates. D/W and V/M have achieved that goal brilliantly. Almost everyone else has taken a different approach. Some have chosen interesting themes based around a story (W/P, P/B, B/S, C/L). But the execution of that theme around an attempt to actually dance, has proven less successful by varying degrees. If this is in fact the direction ice dance is destined for in the next few years, then the teams behind the top two will need to make further adjustments to make their future programs more cohesively dance oriented rather than just a collection of elements and connecting tricks based around a theme.

 

[dorispulaski]

I have to single out Ralph & Hill's tango as another dance that is really a dance. I am sad that we will not see it again until Canadian Nationals. It was heart breaking that they missed the bronze at Skate America.

 

[jcoates]

That's a good point Doris. I had forgotten about them since it's been a while since I last saw them compete. The other three Canton teams have dancey programs, just not a well choreographed or presented as the top two. I'd also add the Hubbell and Donohue FD into the list of dancey programs.

 

[skatingfan04]

I just got around to watching the FD videos from Challenge, so I'll throw in my two cents...


Junior

I liked Poulin/Servant's FD a lot, and was honestly surprised that they placed so low. They have a more mature look than a lot of the others, but I guess they have some technical issues to iron out.

I still can't make myself like the Hasegawa's FD, even though I love the music.

I can't even comment on Dalmer/Firus, because I was so distracted by the music that I didn't really watch them. I absolutely LOVE Gershwin. He's my favourite composer of all time. Somehow these two managed to find the most hideous versions of two of the best Gershwin songs out there. Their version of Funny Face made me cringe, and I've Got Rhythm was actually painful. I'm not sure if I'll ever forgive these two for butchering such beautiful music.

It was really nice to see all of the novice medallists from last years nationals jump right to the top of the junior ranks. Its yet another crop of talented dancers that are making their way up the levels in this country, and its really great to see.

Bent/Mackeen looked off all the way through that FD. It's a cute program, but they struggled with the elements a bit, and seemed shakey at verious points throughout. Hopefully they're a little more solid at nationals.

I've been really impressed with Bruser/Lum and Edwards/Pang ever since last year's nationals, and today was no exception. Choreographically, I prefer Bruser/Lum's FD choreography, but Edwards/Pang seem to be more solid, powerful technicians. What impresses me most about both teams is their expression. Both know how to act, and there is an actual connection formed between the partners. That's so rare for teams this young. I think both will go on to do well down the line.

The champions left me sorth of underwhelmed. I didn't care much for their program. They did have nice lifts, though.

Senior

I've already commented on G/P, so I won't do that again. I will say however that Orford/Williams impressed me for the first time with this FD. It looked less choppy and spastic that it had during the JGP's, and they attacked it with a lot of speed. They seem to have improved in elegance and flow as well. I actually liked the choreography too...it was intricate without looking cluttered.

 

[colleen o'neill]

skatingfan... yeah , I saw that little blurb on P/I..what a rough go they've had ! I agree that healthy , they should be the best bet for 3rd, :disapp: but as things stand , R/H would be the next most obvious contenders .. unless their results at sectionals foreshadowed things to come . ( R/H have made real improvements this year , not just cosmetic ones, and I hope that's not ignored.)

In the P/I piece ,I at first thought the muscle pull they were referring to was the one she had over the summer. which they mentioned , as well as last year's rib injury , the POV of the piece being , " you might not think ice dance is risky , but..." ( Mitch even mentions he's played hockey and other sports and never been injured in those.. ). But the choreographic changes, and pulling back on flexibility moves seem to be directly related to the accident, which included another slight (?) muscle pull. And when you think about it , the cut having required some surgery , you wouldn't want to risk rupturing any of the sewn-together bits. Those bits will need time to heal and grow back together really well , too.

Continuing with Challenge, I have to diverge a bit from NorthernDancers... I like a lot of what I see in O/W. Yes , he has a deficit to make up in line , stretch and polish, in relation to his partner. But I see a big improvement over last year ( so obviously, W&L aren't neglecting the situation ), and most importantly , I can see no impediment to further improvement. He doesn't seem to have developed any bad habits , it's just a matter of not being finished. He has nice long legs to go with hers, moves without any stiffness, seems quite musical, and has a nice , easy demeanor on the ice. I think he does seem quite attuned to his partner.He pays attention to her , looks at her... I feel they could go a long way. I don't even feel they necessarily need to slow down ( though it wouldn't turn me off if they did) , as long as they can continue refining line , synchronicity , etc. at the same time ( like D/W have managed to do ).
If their programs are designed to show her off a bit at this stage of the game ,well..if you've got a star , let it shine. That doesn't mean that the recipe will stay that way. If we can still point out the same problems when they've been together 3 or 4 years instead of 1 1/2 ...I'll concede .

Van As / Shindle have been together for about the same length of time , but are really a little step back from O/W right now.

I liked the possibilities displayed by Lioudevinovitch / Mulder .

In the Juniors , I liked Paradis / Ouellette very much. Thought they had better control of their SD than their FD .I think D&L are doing some very good work.

I like all the young BC teams, and find lots to like in the Hasegawas and Bent / MacKeen...But Edwards and Pang.. ..I really like this young couple . Just up from novice , they won the FD , and deservedly so , IMO. I don't feel the same degree of apprehension over their height differential that I do for some of the other teams..At 15 ,she seems a more compact type of girl , not all arms and legs that she'll need to grow into.She may not grow much more. OTOH , at still only16, he could easily grow a good few inches..They only had one JGP , but it was a very tough field.They finished 4th in the FD, 5th overall . They had a couple of very slight bobbles at Challenge . Still, their FD score was only .65 higher than at Austria , so maybe the Junior scores weren't as out of line as the Seniors ?

ETA ; For those who haven't seen them ...
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/18890789

 

[skatingfan04]

skatingfan... yeah , I saw that little blurb on P/I..what a rough go they've had ! I agree that healthy , they should be the best bet for 3rd, :disapp: but as things stand , R/H would be the next most obvious contenders .. unless their results at sectionals foreshadowed things to come . ( R/H have made real improvements this year , not just cosmetic ones, and I hope that's not ignored.)

In the P/I piece ,I at first thought the muscle pull they were referring to was the one she had over the summer. which they mentioned , as well as last year's rib injury , the POV of the piece being , " you might not think ice dance is risky , but..." ( Mitch even mentions he's played hockey and other sports and never been injured in those.. ). But the choreographic changes, and pulling back on flexibility moves seem to be directly related to the accident, which included another slight (?) muscle pull. And when you think about it , the cut having required some surgery , you wouldn't want to risk rupturing any of the sewn-together bits. Those bits will need time to heal and grow back together really well , too.

I'm still hoping that they get the chance to go to worlds, because even if they're not 100% and can't skate their best, they can gain a ton of experience from competing at worlds. But I'm not opposed to R/H going. They're a good team, and they have improved a great deal. I was actually surprised that Gilles/Poirier surpassed them so easily. I really don't see how that could have happened. I much prefer R/H's lovely tango FD to G/P's.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

1. If it was general "lets-overmark-all-the-hometown-faves" that we see at Nationals, I'd be more forgiving. But this seems even more specious than that. Forget Weaver/Poje - Gilles/Porier's score is four points lower than the best Crone/Porier ever achieved in the FD! That's something nutty. And we saw last season, that the hype given to the Lane school proved all for naught by 4CC and Worlds. Is Lane that great at politicking locally? I'm very curious what they'll score at Nationals when they're next to W/P and V/M.

2. I have to admit, NorthernDancers, that I definitely do not share your apphrension about the BC teams - or more accurately, I hope they do remain together, but if they don't... well, that's what happens when you're young. It is interesting that the big BC teams (Bruser/Lum, Orford/Williams, Edwards/Kai Pang) have the lady as the star, but I don't think the guys are getting left in the dust. The one team I assume will have growth issues - Bruser/Lum - happen to be my favourite (she's like a Canadian Domnina), of course - but that is a really exciting dance. I don't share colleen's enthusiasm for Edwards/Kai Pang. One thing worth noting is that the senior teams have one additional element, as well, so the score is gonna be 4 points higher or so as a matter of course. Still too high, of course, but I actually quite like the dance.

 

[callalily]

^
The scores do seem out of line, though score inflation in general seems to be occurring throughout the sport.

My guess would be that Poirier's skills are well-recognized, and many may see long-term world podium potential for him and a suitable partner. He and Piper do seem to "click" in terms of personality, suggesting they may have an IT factor. This may be influencing perceptions and scoring.

 

[colleen o'neill]

I felt a bit bad for Bruser/ Lum having that mistake, and perhaps getting a bit rattled..That's a very good FD and they certainly "get" the tango.

During the JGP , I thought Skate Canada was a bit curmudgeonly toward them. At their JGP assignment , they managed to finish 2nd in the FD their first time out , which I thought might have been worth a mention on SC's news page..but no. I didn't like their SD, and unfortunately, it did hold them back, abroad as well as here... ( and the height thing is more of a nail-biter with them , as it is with Dalmer and Firus. )..we'll just have to cross our fingers.

 

[NorthernDancers]

I would say that Skate Canada was a bit "curmudgeonly" toward Paradis/Ouellette, who won Challenge, but didn't even get to go to a JGP assignment. I believe they will age out of Junior this year, which means they won't have any Junior international experience, except for maybe 1 appearance at Junior Worlds if they win Nationals. It's not too smart, since a JGP assignment or two would have allowed the judges to at least get to know them before worlds. When deciding between talented teams, the priority should be with the teams that will age out, not with the teams that still have years to go at Junior. I don't expect Canadians to place in the top 5 at Junior Worlds this year, but it could have helped a little.

As for the Junior event:

Paradis/Ouellette were the deserving winners. I liked their SD better than the FD, but they were very solid. They are a well matched team, and both are good dancers. They both move very well, have a great connection with each other, as well as the audience. They will be a hot and spicy addition to Senior next year. Edwards/Pang have really made some good strides this year. As is my comment with all the BC teams, I find the skating almost frantic. I think the actual skills are much better at Junior than Senior with the BC teams (with the exception of Nicole, who is wonderful), but we don't get to see much of them with all that busy-ness. Where's the dancing? Slow it down, folks! Let's see some interesting complex choreography, lines, speed from edges instead of cross cuts, etc. instead of a speed and twizzling contest. Bruser/Lum had the best FD program from the BC teams in my opinion. She has beautiful, long elegant lines. And I think she is the youngest girl there, so she will likely grow quite a bit yet - maybe into a tall, blond, lean beauty like Kaitlyn Weaver. He is also a very talented dancer. I just fear they will not be able to stay together over the long term. Only time will tell, I guess. Hasegawa's looked really disappointed after their FD. I loved their SD, which was really charming, but wasn't a big fan of the FD. It's a little much for them, I think. Bent/Mackeen put in a solid show. It wasn't the best I've seen them skate, but really still very good. I think their FD is very appropriate and suits them well. I'm sure they will be in the hunt for medal at Nationals. But like the BC teams, they are still very young, and have lots of time for medals at Junior. They made a big leap forward in improvement this year, and I think if they continue on that path to improvement, they will do very well internationally over the next few years. Except for some posture issues, they have some great basic skating skills. I feel a little bad for Poulin/Servant. They came on very strong a couple of seasons ago, but seem to have stagnated a little. They do look lovely, and I LOVE her FD costume. But they have not kept pace with the others. Dalmer/Firus should have changed their music. It is not good at all, and provides a direct comparison to Virtue/Moir, which they are not. As soon as coaches knew what was happening with Virtue/Moir, they should have changed the program. It's tough to do that when they probably started on this in April, but I'm sure they could have used some of the same elements to different music. It wouldn't have been a total loss. And they would have had the whole Summer to work through it. Other notables: I think Kirkland/Lettner have really done very well. I really like their FD. She is very elegant and talented. Chris Lettner has never looked so good. Although for longterm success I think she does need to find a tall guy at Senior. Maybe it will be easier for her at Senior, where the guys tend to be taller and all grown up. I think Soucisse/Smyth under performed here. I think they will do better at Nationals, but I do fear they will get lost in all the other really good teams. Carswell looks like a whole new skater with Tanguay. They are a good match, I think. I'm sure they will move up the ranks next season. The biggest shocker for me was that Nelles/Lettner finished just 0.05 points out of qualification for Nationals. I really do not understand that decision. The Clarke's were way overmarked for the SD and FD. While they may have gotten some levels, there should have been more minus GOE's, and the PCS should have been lower. They are not in the same ballpark as Nelles/Lettner, technically or performance wise. It really is a wrong decision.

 

[colleen o'neill]

..As I said, I like Paradis / Ouellette quite a lot , but I don't know what SC could have done in this case , short of breaking their own rules , because I don't think they were even at Nationals the previous year , and the year before that they were 13th and 14th with different partners...so I imagine there would have been a great outcry if they'd been given JGP assignments ahead of other teams who earned their spots last year in Victoria.

I liked their SD, but wasn't particularly moved by their FD.. which is not to say they didn't skate it well.( I'll vote for her costume, too.)If they can repeat this result at Canadians that would get them some kind of boost, and assignments for next season , wouldn't it ?

But I'll tell you who stood out to me as having a distinctive look and a lot of promise is Marieve Cyr and Benjamin Brisebois Gaudreau, they were only 9th here , but I think they're a pretty new team as well , aren't they ?( I don't know who coaches them..but I hope it's someone who can really bring them along )

 

[Dragonlady]

..As I said, I like Paradis / Ouellette quite a lot , but I don't know what SC could have done in this case , short of breaking their own rules , because I don't think they were even at Nationals the previous year , and the year before that they were 13th and 14th with different partners...so I imagine there would have been a great outcry if they'd been given JGP assignments ahead of other teams who earned their spots last year in Victoria.

Skate Canada does not rely on the results at Canadians for JGP assignments because growth spurts can play havoc with Junior skaters' development. They use the results of summer monitoring and summer comps to help determine who gets the spots.

 

[NorthernDancers]

..As I said, I like Paradis / Ouellette quite a lot , but I don't know what SC could have done in this case , short of breaking their own rules , because I don't think they were even at Nationals the previous year , and the year before that they were 13th and 14th with different partners...so I imagine there would have been a great outcry if they'd been given JGP assignments ahead of other teams who earned their spots last year in Victoria.

I liked their SD, but wasn't particularly moved by their FD.. which is not to say they didn't skate it well.( I'll vote for her costume, too.)If they can repeat this result at Canadians that would get them some kind of boost, and assignments for next season , wouldn't it ?

But I'll tell you who stood out to me as having a distinctive look and a lot of promise is Marieve Cyr and Benjamin Brisebois Gaudreau, they were only 9th here , but I think they're a pretty new team as well , aren't they ?( I don't know who coaches them..but I hope it's someone who can really bring them along )

Paradis/Ouellette were 5th at Junior last year at Nationals, I believe, in their first season together. There are a few things that I really like about this team, and why I think they are ones to watch:
- personality: she projects a bright, positive personality, and he is the leader. He has a star quality about him - a certain swagger, confidence, whatever you call it, combined with good looks. She's gorgeous.
- danceability: they both are very good dancers, and they move very well. There's a musicality to what they do.
- program development: they have very good substance in their programs - well balanced, less cross cuts and 2 foot skating than others, some real quality
- future prospects: they both are pretty much all grown up physically, which means when they go to Senior they will be able to continue on the good progress they are making, and will be able to remain a team over the long-term. Dealing with growth spurts can really hurt a team's development for a couple of years, which is why this is always easier to do at the lower levels where there isn't as much pressure for success.


Cyr/Brisebois Gaudreau were 20th at Junior at Challenge last year. That's a really nice improvement in a strong group of Juniors.