Was Czisny's Omission From The U.S. Team for The 4CC's A Snub?

[Blades of Passion]

Did someone else deserve the silver medal, because I haven't heard that argued.

I think a case could easily be made for Caroline Zhang deserving to win the Silver at Nationals.

 

[heyang]

I do think that the USFSA should be willing to discuss the situation with the skaters and coaches in private.

They might have had concerns about her injury - I thought she had a minor injury before Nationals that was mentioned on NBC. They might not want her to risk re-injury due to 4Cs'.

She seemed a bit tentative (again, perhaps due to the pre-Nationals injury) and being tentative causes a lot of poor performances. Maybe they think it might put a fire in her belly. or maybe they don't want her to lose confidence if she finished lower than some of her teammates....

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think a case could easily be made for Caroline Zhang deserving to win the Silver at Nationals.

Would you give her the silver or are you playing devil's advocate? I'm actually curious, because I knew there were those who were annoyed by Zawadski's bronze and thought that Zhang deserved it, but nothing else. (You do agree Ashely deserved the National title, right?)

 

[OS]

Given Phil's history he may just be stirring the pot. It has been to quiet for him. Why not focus on Ashley's win and her amazing score or Caroline's comeback or Ross Miner's Bronze medal, etc. Or how about the great medal count the US earned at this competition, why not talk about that, but Phil being Phil (he loves controversy real or imagined) instead focuses on how Alissa got flipped by the USFSA, please.

...But at the same time it is journalist's responsibly to report. If there's no story, then there's nothing to stir.

If USFS changed their selection process this year, they should have very well spoke with Alissa/team privately on why her spot was given away prior to the official announcement as a courtesy to her, and advice her to concentrate on the worlds and taking care of her injuries.

The federation's responsibility should not only manage US skating interest, but also manage expectations and relations with its hard working athletes, particularly Alissa who has been around for so long and contributed as much as she did. The fact there was no memo or even attempt to communicate to her is nothing short of neglect and even a little bit insulting. So no wonder ends up resulting this sort of article published that can hurt both parties and the sport.

Whether Alissa may harbour any resentment is another matter, personally I think she is much too mature and classy for it and it should make her more determined to prove herself at WC.

 

[FlattFan]

Would you give her the silver or are you playing devil's advocate? I'm actually curious, because I knew there were those who were annoyed by Zawadski's bronze and thought that Zhang deserved it, but nothing else. (You do agree Ashely deserved the National title, right?)

I was there. Have said a few times that Caroline deserved the silver medal. Ashley deserved the title.

 

[dorispulaski]

Of course Hersch is stirring the pot. Hersch has been a huge Alissa fan in print for years. I'm sure he feels the snub to Alissa is almost a snub to him.


There is no way Hersch would have talked about Ross Miner's bronze. Wasn't it Hersch who was particularly bitter when Ross was sent to World's last year? He talked about Ross's bronze last year as though it were something that would never happen in a million years, as though Ross did not deserve his bronze. So that Ross got a bronze on the GP, and at Nationals again, and at 4CC's is something that would make Hersh have to eat his words a little bit.

I'm hoping Ross gets a quad as beautiful as his 3A this next year and scores even better internationally. I'm sure he is tired of these bronzes and would like to move up to silver at at least one event And that he gets a really nicely choreographed set of programs.

I'm hoping his bronze at 4CC's will secure him two GP's this year.

 

[emma]

^ this! especially the last sentence (or maybe, at the very least, the last sentence).

 

[Mathman]

Hersh seems to be way more upset about this than Alissa is. The most he could coax out of her was "I was shocked," while Jason contributed "They never gave me an explanation."

Everything else is all Hersh.

The USFSA must be breathing a sigh of relief that Caroline Zhang performed so well at Four Continents. Still, they handled the whole situation clumsily. Why go to the trouble of ballyhooing a new set of selection criteria, only to ignore it the first time out?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Would you give her the silver or are you playing devil's advocate? I'm actually curious, because I knew there were those who were annoyed by Zawadski's bronze and thought that Zhang deserved it, but nothing else. (You do agree Ashely deserved the National title, right?)

Ashley definitely deserved the title, yes. I think it should have been close between Czisny and Zhang for 2nd and 3rd; I haven't yet gone through and done my exact protocol breakdown yet but as I've thought back on the performances, Caroline is coming out ahead. Czisny has much better basic skating and better overall spinning ability, but Zhang totally outjumped Czisny and I think her short program displayed superior performance quality and that the choreography of both programs was stronger.

Actually, here, I'm going to sit down and do the protocol breakdown of their performances at Nationals:

Alissa Czisny, SP:

3Lutz+2Toe ... 0 GOE ... 7.3
3Loop ... 0 GOE ... 5.1
1Axel ... -3 GOE ... 0.5
FCSp4 ... +1 GOE ... 3.7
SlSt3 ... +2 GOE ... 4.3
CCoSp4 ... +3 GOE ... 5.0
LSp4 ... +3 GOE ... 4.2

Skating Skills - 8.0 ... 6.4
Transitions - 6.75 ... 5.4
Performance - 7.5 ... 6.0
Choreography - 7.25 ... 5.8
Interpretation - 7.5 ... 6.0

Total = 59.7

Caroline Zhang, SP:

3Loop+3Loop< ... +1 GOE ... 9.4
3Flip ... -1 GOE ... 4.6
FCSp3 (was called as Level 2) ... 0 GOE ... 2.8
2Axel ... 0 GOE ... 3.3
CCoSp3 ... +1 GOE ... 3.5
SlSt3 ... +1 GOE ... 3.8
LSp4 ... +3 GOE ... 4.2

Skating Skills - 7.0 ... 5.6
Transitions - 6.75 ... 5.4
Performance - 8.0 ... 6.4
Choreography - 7.5 ... 6.0
Interpretation - 7.75 ... 6.2

Total = 61.3

Alissa Czisny, LP:

3Lutz ... -2 GOE ... 4.6
2Axel+2Toe ... 0 GOE ... 4.6
3Flip ... 0 GOE ... 5.3
ChSp1 ... +2 GOE ... 3.4
FCSp4 ... +1 GOE ... 3.7
3Lutz<< +SEQ ... -3 GOE ... -.05 x (after the fall deduction)
2Axel ... -1 GOE ... 3.13 x
3Loop ... 0 GOE ... 5.61 x
3Loop+2Toe+2Loop ... 0 GOE ... 9.02 x
CCoSp4 ... +3 GOE ... 5.0
CiSt3 ... +1 GOE ... 3.8
LSp4 ... +3 GOE ... 4.2

Skating Skills - 7.75 ... 12.4
Transitions - 6.5 ... 10.4
Performance - 7.0 ... 11.2
Choreography - 6.75 ... 10.8
Interpretation - 7.0 ... 11.2

Total = 108.31

Caroline Zhang, LP:

3Flip ... -2 GOE ... 3.9
3Lutz+2Toe ... -1 GOE ... 6.6
2Axel ... 0 GOE ... 3.3
CCoSp3 ... 0 GOE ... 3.0
FSSp2 (was called as Level 1) ... -1 GOE ... 2.0
3Loop ... +1 GOE ... 5.8
ChSp1 ... +1 GOE ... 2.7
3Flip+2Toe+2Loop ... +1 GOE ... 9.94 x
3Loop+2Toe ... 0 GOE ... 7.04 x
SlSt2 ... 0 GOE ... 2.6
2Axel ... 0 GOE ... 3.63 x
LSp4 ... +3 GOE ... 4.2

Skating Skills - 6.5
Transitions - 6.25
Performance - 7.25
Choreography - 7.0
Interpretation - 7.25

Total = 109.51

So that puts Caroline ahead by 2.8 points overall for me.

 

[Nadine]

This is all a tempest in a teapot, nothing more.

And I'm sure Alissa, et al, know this, and are way too busy preparing for Worlds to care about such an insignificant thing. Jmho.

 

[Bluebonnet]

If you are going to set criteria, stick to them. If not, just say you are going to pick whoever you want for any competition and be done with it.

Why? It IS in the rule:

"The team will be selected from those athletes who are ISU senior age eligible. Selection to the U.S. Four Continents Team will be based upon the results of the two most recent U.S. Figure Skating Championships, the most recent World Championship, the most recent Four Continents Championship and all other international events; however, the International Committee may consider extenuating circumstances."

 

[brightphoton]

Did someone else deserve the silver medal, because I haven't heard that argued.

Caroline definitely, Agnes could make an argument for.

 

[macy]

i understand why she would be upset and USFSA should have been honest with her about why they didn't choose her. but i hope she sees the positive that it will help her prepare more for worlds and continue to let that injury heal. i hope it works out to her advantage.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Was Czisny upset? I didn't get this feeling. Like someone has said, I don't think Czisny needs 4CC. I think USFSA made right decision to push younger ladies forward.

 

[Kissx3]

She has every right to be upset because in the end you skate for yourself moreso than for your country and she lost out on another opportunity to possibly look good internationally before Worlds and a good chunk of prize money. However, after the fact the federation clearly made the right choice. Caroline's next season would've been in jeopardy had she not been able to set this SB and push up her world ranking.

 

[seniorita]

4CC was not much deal in the past but recently it is since the federations send their best skaters, this year it was almost as a mini Worlds but I think year by year this changes depending on where the competition is held and if it is an Olympic year or not. In 2010 they didnt send their best skaters, they sent the one who wouldnt go to Olympics. Nevertheless Mao went because it was held in Korea, not much travelling. I think it is a difficult competition due to travel time for some competitors. In Euros it is rare that they would skip the event even if it is before Olympics but I think it is due to the event being old and established and the time travel is little.
Maybe Alissa wanted to go this time cause it was in USA. I didnt understand why she was there though, she was an alternative?

Someone asked about ISU Prize money, I think they havent published a new communication since then.

 

[mylastduchess]

Whats with all the attack on Alissa? All she said was that she was surprised and wanted to go.... read the whole article

 

[OS]

"The team will be selected from those athletes who are ISU senior age eligible. Selection to the U.S. Four Continents Team will be based upon the results of the two most recent U.S. Figure Skating Championships, the most recent World Championship, the most recent Four Continents Championship and all other international events; however, the International Committee may consider extenuating circumstances."

Well Alissa has certainly ticked all the boxes, and apparently extenuating circumstances means no memo or explanations are needed. So why bother write the rule to begin with? Weird. Might as well make it simple.

Rule: We will let you know.

 

[ivy]

Well part of the rule too is that the committee is to attempt to secure as many slots in future GPs, 4CCs and Worlds for US skaters as possible. Sending more skaters to more events helps up the rankings of the skaters that participate. If I understand it correctly they only use the results for 4CC/Euros or Worlds in determining rankings and ranking then determine GP invitations.

And even looking at the rule as quoted above, it just says assignments will be based on the last 2 years of competition, but it doesn't say how. You could look at Alissa's last 2 seasons and say 'well she peaked at GPF 2010 and has been steadily loosing ground ever since' and Caroline's and say 'hmmm....this girl is on an up swing'. Personally I'm glad there is discretion in team selection process. It will sometimes seem unfair, and some decisions will be wrong (re: Dornbush), but I prefer it to a straight forward ranking or point system for selection.

 

[Mathman]

It IS in the rule:

...however, the International Committee may consider extenuating circumstances."

Well Alissa has certainly ticked all the boxes, and apparently extenuating circumstances means no memo or explanations are needed. So why bother write the rule to begin with? Weird. Might as well make it simple.

Rule: We will let you know.

Well part of the rule too is that the committee is to attempt to secure as many slots in future GPs, 4CCs and Worlds for US skaters as possible. Sending more skaters to more events helps up the rankings of the skaters that participate. If I understand it correctly they only use the results for 4CC/Euros or Worlds in determining rankings and ranking then determine GP invitations.

"Extenuate: To lessen the magnitude or seriousness of, especially by providing partial excuses."

In this case the USFSA lessoned the seriousness of their list of competitive results that would guide their decision. The "partial excuses" were what Ivy said -- they want to give other skaters more international exposure, etc. Such considerations are not mentioned in the section on selecting the team for Four Continents. It is rather taken from the International Committee's mission statement.

When the USFSA calls me for my input , I will advise them to change the part about "extenuating circumstances" (really, this is a legal term that means, "yes, I committed a crime but I have an excuse") -- change this to something like, "the committee will also consider other factors consistent with its mission statement."

This basically says what os168 recommends: "Don't call us, we'll call you." But it takes away the appearance of untruthfulness that is now lapping at the heels of the federation chiefs.

JMO.