Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

[Boeing787]

The only thing Takahashi needs is more consistency on the jumps. He can do it too; let's not forget his epic display of jumping at 2008 Four Continents and 2008 Nationals. His 2006 NHK and 2007 Nationals performances were up there as well and 2007 Worlds was close.

You have to remember that performance was four years and one bad injury ago. Dai is a great skater, but he has past his peak.

 

[Violet Bliss]

You meant "2011 Canadian Nationals, or even 2012 Nationals", I guess?

Well, I was thinking more about the LP which was as good as it gets in 2010 when he doubled his 3A in the SP. His scores went up even more in 2011 because of a better SP and even higher PCS.

Per Patrick's own words early this season, his focus was on the representation side as well as skating skills. (And we can see progress on both fronts as well as his 3A.) The 4S just sort of happened on its own sometime later. He has shelfed it for now as he is a little behind in schedule, understandably as a result of a short and busy summer, and he is uncertain about going for 4S or 4F. He will put in a new quad only when it's 80% successful and without sacrificing choreography.

Both Chan and Takahashi have acknowledged being pushed on by the other. We and the sport are the lucky beneficiaries.

 

[seniorita]

The only thing Takahashi needs is more consistency on the jumps. He can do it too; let's not forget his epic display of jumping at 2008 Four Continents and 2008 Nationals. His 2006 NHK and 2007 Nationals performances were up there as well and 2007 Worlds was close.

That was before his one year break from the surgery but I think just the quad became unstable after that cause in all the rest he came back even better!

 

[periperi]

I absolutely agree with your last sentence. It's a privilege to watch someone like Chan just keep climbing. Even we who love Daisuke are lucky to have someone like Patrick skating right now, where we can watch his talent unfold. I'll be as happy about Takahashi skating his best and winning a silver as I would be with his winning the OGM, if it means that both these men will be giving us skating like we've never seen it before. Remember that wonderful final flight of women in the Vancouver Olympics, where everyone skated lights out and no one fell, and Mao gave us THREE triple axels while YuNa floated over the ice as if she'd trained in the gravitational field of Jupiter or Krypton and then found our paltry gravity a lark? That's what I wish for the men, in this year's worlds, next year's worlds, and the Olympics. And wherever Daisuke lands, if he skates the way only he can, I'll remember it forever with a smile, and if Patrick tops that, I'll be thrilled for the chance to witness it.

Olympia, you have such a lovely way with words! You seem like such a wonderful person. Never change!

 

[pangtongfan]

Definitely not. Far more likely is that Abbott, Hanyu, Fernandez, and Kozuka continue to close the gap on him. I wouldnt be surprised if he came 3rd or 4th at Worlds, that is about 10 times more likely than him coming 1st. I like Takahashi alot too but lets get real here. The only ones who might challenge Chan in the future are skaters younger than him with alot of improvement left.

 

[pangtongfan]

No. Not unless there happens to be a competition when Takahashi actually lands a quad and skates perfectly while Chan skates terribly (and by terribly, I mean REALLY terribly--like 4 falls and a Zayak).

Pretty much. Chan would have to do that and Takahashi would have to do that in both programs to boot. The LP of the GPF only showed a very bad Chan will be scored over even a very good Takahashi. The judges dont even consider Takahashi to have better performance and interpretation skills than Chan, which is frankly laughable, but it is what it is.

 

[Spun Silver]

Definitely not. Far more likely is that Abbott, Hanyu, Fernandez, and Kozuka continue to close the gap on him. I wouldnt be surprised if he came 3rd or 4th at Worlds, that is about 10 times more likely than him coming 1st. I like Takahashi alot too but lets get real here. The only ones who might challenge Chan in the future are skaters younger than him with alot of improvement left.

Abbott is almost a year older than Takahashi.

 

[pangtongfan]

Abbott is almost a year older than Takahashi.

I know but he is a super late bloomer. He wasnt even known at the National level until he was 23.

 

[skateluvr]

There are lots of opinions, but I think you have worded this in a way that is needlessly unkind to Patrick.

This is a sport. Under the rules of the sport Patrick scores more points than anyone else. That's why he wins.

(I like Daisuke's skating, too.)

No unkindness..and you think he should win with falls like that? I think from your posts you don't find it right, understandable, or good for the fans...

 

[hikki]

http://number.bunshun.jp/articles/-/195587

Interesting article by a respected sports journalist Akiko Tamura.
I don't have time now to translate but maybe someone on this forum could kindly do the job?

 

[glam]

I think the technical panel should explain to the skating audiences and to other skaters why Chan's fall in the SP wasn't marked as a fall. It is annoying that the panel can do whatever they want and they don't have any responsibility of what they are doing. In any other sport, the panel would have been interviewed in TV/magazine and they would have had some explaining to do!

 

[Mathman]

No unkindness..and you think he should win with falls like that? I think from your posts you don't find it right, understandable, or good for the fans...

What makes me sad is that people blame Patrick for the rules of the CoP. I think the rules should be changed to place a greater emphasis on a clean skate and a greater penalty on falls than is currently the case. But this has nothing to do with Patrick.

Patrick skates according to the rules, and he does so better than anyone else. If the ISU were to change the rules, presumably he would change his programs accordingly. The judges give him high marks not because he is a judges' pet or because Skate Canada is politically influential, but because Patrick does all the things that the IJS gives out points for.

So what I wish is that the discussion would focus on the IJS, pro and con, rather than on Patrick Chan pro and con.

 

[Olympia]

Exactly, Math. Besides the fact that Patrick is a wonderful skater, and plainly a strategic skater as well, he clearly skates with all his heart. There's no reason to speak as if he or his team has been underhanded in any way just because we don't always understand why his scores are what they are.

For quite a long time, because I was such a Michelle Kwan fan, I kind of resented Tara for winning the Olympic gold in 1998. Then one day I had a sudden understanding that she was an ambitious kid with a lot of talent who did what every skater does--skated to win. How the chips fell on that particular night was not in her hands at all after she finished skating, or before she started skating (Michelle's skate was judged and marked earlier in the evening). I thought that Michelle's artistry should have been weighted more heavily against Tara's jumps, but that was not the judges' evaluation, and the end result of the marks doesn't change the fact that I can continue to love Michelle's skating and admire Tara's.

If there's something questionable with the way moves are valued in this system, it's not the doing of anyone on the ice.

 

[Spun Silver]

IMHO, skateluvr said nothing untoward. I reread her posts and don't see them as attacks on Patrick but rather on the judges. She's basically calling him a judges' favorite. And they fuel that kind of thing by not counting a fall as a fall. In this case it's not the system but the judging that is frustrating.

That said, his FP was majestic.

And makes a Takahashi fan's heart sink.

 

[seniorita]

I dont like when skaters get accused of decisions that are not in their hands, I try not to do it myself although we are carried away by personal favs sometimes.I ve also tried the last couple of years to enjoy my favs regardless of the outcome and who won, but that took me some effort!

I thought that Michelle's artistry should have been weighted more heavily against Tara's jumps, but that was not the judges' evaluation, and the end result of the marks doesn't change the fact that I can continue to love Michelle's skating and admire Tara's.

So there is hope I might rewatch Evas's Lp from Vancouver. That needs a lot of process from my part.

For someone who watched 1998 ladies competition some 8 years later (YouTube) and was not emotionally involved since it was old news, I never understood the final outcome.

But what I cant really get over is ladies in SLC that I watched in real time , and no matter how many times I re-watched it I cant get over that Michelle or Irina didnt get the gold medal. Yes I know why they didnt, but I dont like the explanation.

 

[Mathman]

She's basically calling him a judges' favorite.

I guess it is human nature. When someone is the teacher's pet at school, the kids on the playground don't beat up the teacher, they beat up the pet.

 

[Spun Silver]

Point taken, MM, but I really don't think the posts in question constituted a beating up, and IMO it's unnecessarily sensitive to label them as such.

Fans will be fans. They should be restrained before they start stomping each other to death, but a little verbal enthusiasm on one side or the other is fundamentally good for the sport. Take it away and you take the fans away too.

 

[spikydurian]

I guess it is human nature. When someone is the teacher's pet at school, the kids on the playground don't beat up the teacher, they beat up the pet.

Not all fans 'beat up' their favourites' opponents. I don't (K, I only speak for myself). When MK lost the gold and Kurt didn't win in the Olympics, I was very very disappointed for them and my heart sank. But it didn't make me rant and spit venom on the other figure skaters. Life moves on, another competition another day. Perhaps different sports attract different types of fans. I see glaring different fan reactions in sports such as tennis and football. The former I am always amazed at the audience bi-partisanship (I am sure they all have favourites), the latter partisanship veering towards hooliganism.

 

[skateluvr]

IMHO, skateluvr said nothing untoward. I reread her posts and don't see them as attacks on Patrick but rather on the judges. She's basically calling him a judges' favorite. And they fuel that kind of thing by not counting a fall as a fall. In this case it's not the system but the judging that is frustrating.

That said, his FP was majestic.

And makes a Takahashi fan's heart sink.

Yes, you are right spun, and I'm getting picked on when several other posters in every men's thread say exactly what I said. Pang actually said "Patrick could fall 6 times with and take a dump on the ice, " and no mod said a thing. Pang has more influence than me-he must be a mod favorite LOL. And I did ask him to edit it out (the bathroom humor) since I started the thread.

I love to see Chan skate - clean. But he falls more than any "great" male WC I have seen. Still, I'm thrilled we have him currently.

No, Olympia, it is not because Dai is my fave. I love his style, but his jumps are failing. It is the fact that I can read the protocols, do the math, and that still does not justify the results we are seeing. I did not think Yuna should have so outscored Mao in Vancouver. She should have won, but because her programs were much better, and she skated them perfectly. i thought Mao's scores should have been much closer, but the system allows this hypperinflation, any mark can be padded and they add up to big scores. What shall we expect at next Olympics for a clean 7 triple program? Did Ashley really skate far better at 4cc or Nationals? I thought her two GP events pretty close, but look at the scoring differences. You have to really study all this like a pt job if you are not Mathman. Me, I am into enjoying the skaters, esp Chan, but unfair is unfair.

For those who care about fairness, tweaking is needed. And for those who value vertical programs, tweaking is needed. Sasha skated at the wrong time. She would be beating a clean MK a lot under CoP. How would we explain that to new fans?

In my wish list for 2012, I asked for GS with all the math geeks, avid fans, former/present skaters to design a better system from the ground up, or tweak the present to reflect falls as a bad thing, etc. To me, correct edges are good but a flutz should not be worthless if landed, so there have to be levels/points awarded here. Rewarding people for trying a quad or a 3x3 that they hardly land in practice if it's rotated mostly, or the edges were right seems crazy to me. A wipeout fall should be worth nothing.

I maintain that the best skating is always seen in icedance, blade to ice, and that is the place for the twizzles and the one foot long sequences. I am sick of the same CoP programs, the jumps strategic not musically placed, the ugly spins, and so much busyness which CoP rewards. Arm flailing, purposeless movement.

Yes, I have seen much more 6.0 skating. That makes me a dinosaur for all the young guys/gals here who check all the protocols (remember them!) and put the decimals in. Do decimals make this any more quantitative? More a sport? No.

6.0 got thrown out for the usual cheating. Now, we have had years of changes in the rules.

People here can redesign the system and should try- a GS position paper submitted to ISU as a document from fans. With so many very bright posters/skaters past and present, I think y'all could come up with fan freindly system fair to the skaters. why not?

 

[demarinis5]

Sorry to go off topic but since Michelle has been brought up in this thread I have to respond.

Sorry skateluvr I have to disagree with you about Michelle.

A song For You ( a non jump Michelle)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4MbfKSX10I