ISU World Team Trophy, April 2012, Tokyo

[Violet Bliss]

I like the Team event but hate for it to be held before the individual events at the Olympics, making some skaters risk what they have trained most of their lives for and also for the effect on the over all qualities of the individual events.

The annual competition is great to have for all kinds of reasons.

 

[Mathman]

What I like is the possibility that like the swimming relays, that good competitors who are not the top 3, could go to the Olympics and get a medal.

That would be cool, and I hope that the federations see it that way.

But they would definitely have some decisions to make.

Suppose Davis and White, Shibutani and Shibutani, and Hubbell and Donahue are going for individual medals in ice dance.

Who do we pick for the Short Dance and Free Dance in the team competition? We could go with Kriengkrairut and Giuliette-Schmitt (winning the cool names segment anyway) and Chock and Bates (Madison La'akea Te-Lan Hall Chock being no slouch in the names department herself).

But they might skate only so-so and lose the gold medal for the U.S. team, sacrificing solid efforts by Jeremy Abbott and Ashley Wagner for nothing.

Or should we send Hubbell and Donahue, figuring they will do fine in the team competition, and they are not going to win an individual medal anyway?

Or should we send Davis and White to the team thing, going all out to win the team gold medal and then hope that Meryl and Charlie will still be able to do their best later in the week?

Or do we wait to see whether Canada sends Virtue and Moir before we decide whether to throw down with D&W? (But what if Skate Canada is waiting, too?)

Yeah, this is going to be great!

 

[micnow]

That would be cool, and I hope that the federations see it that way.
But they would definitely have some decisions to make.
Suppose Davis and White, Shibutani and Shibutani, and Hubbell and Donahue are going for individual medals in ice dance.
Who do we pick for the Short Dance and Free Dance in the team competition? We could go with Kriengkrairut and Giuliette-Schmitt (winning the cool names segment anyway) and Chock and Bates (Madison La'akea Te-Lan Hall Chock being no slouch in the names department herself).
But they might skate only so-so and lose the gold medal for the U.S. team, sacrificing solid efforts by Jeremy Abbott and Ashley Wagner for nothing.
Or should we send Hubbell and Donahue, figuring they will do fine in the team competition, and they are not going to win an individual medal anyway?
Or should we send Davis and White to the team thing, going all out to win the team gold medal and then hope that Meryl and Charlie will still be able to do their best later in the week?
Or do we wait to see whether Canada sends Virtue and Moir before we decide whether to throw down with D&W? (But what if Skate Canada is waiting, too?)
Yeah, this is going to be great!

I think this would not be possible. As I understood the team event rules published on the ISU home page, a federation can only sent competitors for the team event, who also qualified for individual events, unless a qualified federation for the team event do not have a qualified competitor for an individual event. Only in such a case you can sent a non qualifier for the team event.

 

[seniorita]

Me too I can't find any reason to be held before the individual competition, I would wonder what is the benefit? After the end of competition the team event would be fun, a celebration and skaters who either won or not would enjoy it, being held before both audience and skaters won't enjoy it as much, everyone would wait individuals!
And if skaters who didn't qualify for the individual spots would be great choice, we would see more skaters than max 3!!!I hope isu rethinks of it all!

 

[Mathman]

I think this would not be possible. As I understood the team event rules published on the ISU home page, a federation can only sent competitors for the team event, who also qualified for individual events, unless a qualified federation for the team event do not have a qualified competitor for an individual event. Only in such a case you can sent a non qualifier for the team event.

I am a little confused now. Is that announcement still available on the ISU site?

They did recently announce the rules for the World Team Trophy.

For the Olympics, as far as I know individuals do not qualify to compete, countries do. Is this right?

 

[Mathman]

I like the Team event but hate for it to be held before the individual events at the Olympics, making some skaters risk what they have trained most of their lives for and also for the effect on the over all qualities of the individual events.

What I hope would happen is that over time the importance of the Olympics to skaters would diminish. If the purpose is to find out who is the best in the world, we already have a competition for that -- worlds.

The Olympics, on the other hand, are a big pageant for nations to propagandize and strut their stuff. The most-watched event in the Olympics is the opening ceremonies, where legions of athletes march in carrying flags while the host country shoots off fireworks. A team competition in skating fits right in.

 

[Skater Boy]

Wow, if the team events are being run that differently between the world trophy and OGM I predict hugely different results. With the world team trophy I think USA would be heavily favoured as they are solid in all four disciplines and could come up with two solid singles skaters both men and women unlike Canada. It also gives Japan a chance a medal they have a lot of talented singles skaters in men and women so it could make up somewhat for their weaker dance although in pairs they are coming up. Russia in a couple of years look strong but maybe not know (add Plushyalong with Gaschinski and two baby ballerinas to a solid dance and pairs team. France, Canada, Italy, China, Germany all have events they are powerhouses in coupled with major weaknesses in other disciplines. Canada would have a much brighter shot at a medal in the Olympics though especially if Joannie Rochette came back in reasonable form or Cynthia Phaneuf skated like she did in 2012 worlds.

 

[Mathman]

Wow, if the team events are being run that differently between the world trophy and OGM I predict hugely different results. With the world team trophy I think USA would be heavily favoured as they are solid in all four disciplines and could come up with two solid singles skaters both men and women unlike Canada.

Last time U.S.A. won with Lysacek (first) and Abbott (5th), Caroline Zhang (3rd) and Rachael Flatt (4th) (ahead of Miki Ando, fifth), Belbin and Agosto (first, ahead of Virtue and Moir), and Denney and Barrett, fourth.

On this page you can click on the results form that 2009 competition, and also the official rules ("Announcement") for the 2012 event.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-182502-199720-nav-list,00.html

 

[Nadine]

Honestly, the more I read the more confused I am about all the Team events , especially the difference between the World Team Trophy, which I've never taken seriously (reminds me of a pro-am; cheesy, but a good way to try out a new program & earn some $$$) versus the "Olympic Team Event", which has never been held before and therefore I have absolutey *no* idea how it will pan out. I just have hope is all.

And just think two more years of speculation, hype, positivity, negativity, fantasy, and reality. *sigh*

I just hope first & foremost it is a legitimate event, nothing cheesy like the pro-ams & pro competitions. Rather a serious event, one the skaters can be proud of earning a medal at, instead of being looked upon with an air of falsity. And it will be such in my humble opinion if a lower ranked skater earns an Olympic Gold Medal (let alone any medal) over a much more decorated worthy skater. This is why I feel the #1 & #2 skater(s) from each country will participate not only in his/her/their individual event, but also the Team Event to guarantee him/her/them an opportunity at winning an Olympic Medal of any color. Otherwise there will be h(double LL) to pay if said skater(s) are not given that opportunity by their federation. Not to mention the outraged fans and public. To me it is only fair and common sense.

That said, stranger things have happened and I keep going back to Cinquata's *spicy* reference... :think:

EDITED TO ADD: Mathman, I find it interesting you want the Olympics to be diminished in importance, it brings to mind what Frank Carroll said when a majority of Michelle Kwan fans were trying to diminish its importance because she never won an Olympic Gold Medal. He got angry and stuck up for the Olympics. That was then this is now. If one is really the very best one will be able to withstand the biggest pressure cooker of their career - the Olympics. Worlds doesn't even come close, it happens every year, and gives the skater more chances, whereas a skater only has one (or two if they're lucky; three if they are very very very lucky) to earn an Olympic Gold Medal or a medal of any color at the Olympics. Jmho.

 

[micnow]

I am a little confused now. Is that announcement still available on the ISU site?
They did recently announce the rules for the World Team Trophy.
For the Olympics, as far as I know individuals do not qualify to compete, countries do. Is this right?

On the ISU homepage under the sochi2014.ru link there is another link about qualifying system in all isu events including figure skating as a zip-file with information about the olympic team event too (right now I cann't open this file because winzip license problems but maybe you can). I can post the link here.

http://ajax.sportcentric.com/vsite/...205502-222725-19296-68634-custom-item,00.html

But as I remembered when I had a look the last time, the entry rules for the team event are about as I posted above. 10 (or only 8?) teams for short program 5 teams for free skating. But maybe you can have a look yourself to compare it and post if I understood something wrong.

Another interesting point as I remembered: A team can also compete, if only competitors for 3 events of the team are available. This could be interesting for Japan if Mervin Tran isn't eligible.

 

[Mathman]

On the ISU homepage under the sochi2014.ru link there is another link about qualifying system in all isu events including figure skating as a zip-file with information about the olympic team event too (right now I cann't open this file because winzip license problems but maybe you can). I can post the link here.

http://ajax.sportcentric.com/vsite/...205502-222725-19296-68634-custom-item,00.html

But as I remembered when I had a look the last time, the entry rules for the team event are about as I posted above. 10 (or only 8?) teams for short program 5 teams for free skating. But maybe you can have a look yourself to compare it and post if I understood something wrong.

Another interesting point as I remembered: A team can also compete, if only competitors for 3 events of the team are available. This could be interesting for Japan if Mervin Tran isn't eligible.

Thank you so much!

Yes, I can open this file. To everyone, if you can open the file linked by micnow it explains in great detail all of the rules about th Olympic team event that we have been speculating about. (The other two files in the folder are about speed skating and short track.)

The IOC Executive Board accepted the inclusion of the Figure Skating (Single & Pair Skating, Ice Dance) Team Event at the 2014 Olympic Winter Games (OWG) in Sochi based on the notion that only athletes that are already qualified for the individual events will participate in the team event. For exceptions please refer to point 3.2.1 below.

The Skaters/Couples competing in the Free Skating must be the same as those having competed in the Short Program/Short Dance, however each Team has the option to replace up to two (2) entries (two Single Skaters or one Single Skater (Lady or Man) plus one couple (Pair Skating or Ice Dance) or both the Pair Skating and Ice Dance Couples) between the Short Program/Short Dance and the Fee Skating/Free Dance provided such Skaters/Couple is part of the accredited delegation on site of the OWG.

 

[Mathman]

EDITED TO ADD: Mathman, I find it interesting you want the Olympics to be diminished in importance...

I was agreeing with this post:

Like I said at the beginning, in all honesty it's the Olympic Team Event I'm most looking forward to, which imho might even overshadow the individual events in the coming years.

The Olympics, compared to worlds, has more of a "team spirit/patriotism" vibe.

 

[Skater Boy]

Thanks for the explanation. Looking at the upcoming world team trophy then who would be the favourites?

USA they have Rippon and Abbott with Abbott potentially winning it all and Rippon top 8 or 10; Alyssa and Ashley who could be 1 and 2 or 12 and 13 ; Davis and White who will be 1st or at worst 2nd; pairs a lower top ten team one would think this would beat the Russians with inconsistent men and underaged ladies. Their pairs are dance teams will do respectably. The Canadians are short three singles skaters who are competitive (a guy and two ladies unless one of the ladies flukes out. Japan is super strong in singles but weak in paris and dance. France has two relatively strong men and a decent dance team but could get slaughtered in ladies and pairs China is strong in pairs and has up and coming men and women but not soon enough. Italy has a strong lady, guy and dance but not enough experience. USA looks solid bet for gold

 

[Nadine]

On the ISU homepage under the sochi2014.ru link there is another link about qualifying system in all isu events including figure skating as a zip-file with information about the olympic team event too (right now I cann't open this file because winzip license problems but maybe you can). I can post the link here.

http://ajax.sportcentric.com/vsite/...205502-222725-19296-68634-custom-item,00.html

But as I remembered when I had a look the last time, the entry rules for the team event are about as I posted above. 10 (or only 8?) teams for short program 5 teams for free skating. But maybe you can have a look yourself to compare it and post if I understood something wrong.

Another interesting point as I remembered: A team can also compete, if only competitors for 3 events of the team are available. This could be interesting for Japan if Mervin Tran isn't eligible.

Thanks for the link!

I read the whole thing, and at first it started out cut/clear/dried, just the way I like it. But then it started getting "havey-cavey", open to manipulation and shenanigans.

One thing that comes across loud & clear though is that the year 2013 counts the most in terms of qualifying for the 2014 Olympic Team Event. I like the chart that shows the order of precedence in terms of qualifying enough points for the Team Event, with 2013 Worlds being most important (1200 pts.), then 2013 Europeans & 4CC (840 pts.), GPF (800 pts.), WJC (500 pts.), GP (400 pts.), JGP (250 pts.). Totally straight forward. :thumbsup:

However, where it starts to get confusing & open to manipulation, et al, are those "stand-by skaters". I mean at first the document stated only those *qualified* for the individual events would be allowed to participate in the Team Event (btw the best 1 skater(s) from each country), but then after the SP a country has the opportunity to basically have one skater skate the SP, the other the LP, et al (so that's actually more than the stated 1 skater(s) allowed for the SP, then after that it becomes 2, hmmm). Additionally, if one is injured/illness/etc., then an unqualified "stand-by" can be sent in his/her/their place. Lol somebody that hasn't even qualified for an individual event can now be allowed to skate the Team Event. Come on, this just gives me the feeling of being underhanded.

Now if it were up to me I would make EVERYTHING cut/dried/clear, just as the chart was, with no special exceptions. Once you start doing that it opens a whole new can of worms (e.g. witness jrs. being allowed to do the Sr. GP, but not Worlds/Olympics). Also, I wouldn't allow a Team to participate if they don't have skater/couples qualified in each event, but the document above allows a country that does not have 4 qualified discplines to enter 3 instead. And on & on & on...

On the (+) side, there is still 2 more years to go before the next Olympics, and hopefully during that time the rules will be revised to cut out any ambiguity/special exceptions. One can hope.

ps: thanks for your explanation, Mathman, that was me. And I stand by my words, I hope that in the future the Team Event will overshadow the individual events, but in order to do so it has to be legitimate. No havey-cavey shenanigans, rather cut & dried & straightforward.

 

[Mathman]

Additionally, if one is injured/illness/etc., then an unqualified "stand-by" can be sent in his/her/their place. Lol somebody that hasn't even qualified for an individual event can now be allowed to skate the Team Event.Come on, this just gives me the feeling of being underhanded.

I think it has always been like that. The U.S. sends the team of Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, and Kimmie Meissner to the 2006 Olympics. Michelle comes up lame, so they replace her on the team with the next in line, Emily Hughes.

The whole thing is, individuals do not qualify for anything. The country qualifies to send so many skaters, then it is up to the national federation which skaters they send. There is no such thing as an "unqualified" stand-by, if the national federation wants to send her. Michelle Kwan was a "standby" at the 1994 Olympics just in case Tonya Harding was arrested or something.

But the ISU could have a rule that says if you withdraw from the team competition because of injury, etc., then you have withdrawn from the whole Olympics and cannot compete in the individual events either.

 

[fairly4]

i hate to burst everyones bubble 0---- but the OLYMPics aren't the end all be all.
i can think of three things as to why that is given

1) birth of a baby
2) death of veteran -death in general
3) the cheating in the olympics because of drugs , steroids and aribritation commitee letting the cheaters getting their medals back, the money, overall attitude of atheletes, big business that is now olympics -money, cheating not only in judging, but in nonadherence to rules, regulations, overlooking rules -bending to favor one athlete over another.
has diminshed the olympics big time,
4) major illness in family
so for me and my family friends olympics is a non big deal.

 

[Nadine]

I think it has always been like that. The U.S. sends the team of Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, and Kimmie Meissner to the 2006 Olympics. Michelle comes up lame, so they replace her on the team with the next in line, Emily Hughes.

The whole thing is, individuals do not qualify for anything. The country qualifies to send so many skaters, then it is up to the national federation which skaters they send. There is no such thing as an "unqualified" stand-by, if the national federation wants to send her. Michelle Kwan was a "standby" at the 1994 Olympics just in case Tonya Harding was arrested or something.

But the ISU could have a rule that says if you withdraw from the team competition because of injury, etc., then you have withdrawn from the whole Olympics and cannot compete in the individual events either.

I just read the whole thing all over again, and I'm still confused, lol. I wish we could just post the document in its entirety right here so everybody has a chance to interpret it word-for-word. Because I bet you each one of us will have our own interpretation. Jmho.

I'm done interpreting the rules, least for now. In the meantime I'll just sit back, relax, and enjoy watching the World Team Trophy this year.

 

[Mathman]

^ Best plan. They will probably change the rules a s few more times before the Olympics anyway.

By the way, comparing the official announcement with the previous one, it looks like the International Olympic Committee had some objections to the ISU's original proposal, precisely on the issue of whether the same skaters have to participate in both the team event and the individual events.

The wording in the latest document says:

The IOC Executive Board accepted the inclusion of the Figure Skating (Single & Pair Skating, Ice Dance) Team Event at the 2014 Olympic Winter Games (OWG) in Sochi based on the notion that only athletes that are already qualified for the individual events will participate in the team event.

 

[bigsisjiejie]

I am against any rule or regulation that forces a skater to compete in the team competition as a condition of being able to skate in their normal individual discipline. There is something just so wrong and coercive about that. It they would just schedule the team competition after the standard events, it would potentially solve some critical issues.

Since the Olympics is done on a country basis under the auspices of each country's Olympic Committee, what would happen if a country just refused to enter the figure skating Team Competition at all? What would/could the ISU do? Or the IOC? Banning an entire country's athletes from participating in any event in that sport because they didn't field a team for the team part of the competition would make for some "spicy" Sporting news.

 

[Mathman]

Since the Olympics is done on a country basis under the auspices of each country's Olympic Committee, what would happen if a country just refused to enter the figure skating Team Competition at all? What would/could the ISU do?

Only ten countries will qualify to compete in the team event. If one of those counties is "unable or unwilling to compose a Team with Skaters/Couples competing in at least 3 disciplines," then that country will be replaced by number eleven on the qualifying list. No penalty as far as the individual competitions are concerned.

As for individual skaters, if a skater is assigned to the team event by his national federation, then he is expected to compete, except for provisions for "stand-by" skaters to step in in the case of injury. I assume that in the extremely unlikely case that an individual skater simply refuses to skate, then that skater's country would be kicked out of the team competition and very likely that skater's national federation would kick the skater off the individual team, too. I expect that this is certainly in the contract that Olympic team members sign with their federations and national Olympic committees -- that they will participate in all the Olympic events that the federation signs them up for.

(Although there was the famous case of speed skater Shani Davis who refused to compete on the relay team because he was saving himself for his individual event.)