Skating Commentating: What "should" or "should not" be said?

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think this question needs to be contextualized in a larger debate (meaning, how should the ISU in concernt with media corporations market figure skating) but I think this specific example of two commentaries have different effects on the audience is the clearest I can think of to demonstrate the difference between good and bad.

The Skate: Rahkamo/Kokko, 1995 Worlds, FD

The Bad: BBC Eurosport
Right of the bat, they signal a pretty massive bias with their "Spot of trouble comment." They're actually silent throughout the entire performance and they you enjoy it which is a definitely plus. But there's so little content in what they actually say. They keep emphasizing how the audience reacts ("are they all wrong?"), how nice they are ("just for their character they should win it"). There is massive booing from the audience ("not one of the judges has given them the verdict) and they say "needs no more words from Chris and I."

WRONG. We need to know why the judges (unanimously, I might add) prefered the G/P over the Finns. Leave it dangling like they did, you're inclined to view it as an unfair result.

The Good: Sandra Bezic (yes, I said Sandra Bezic)
They talk more during the performance, but it's not bad chatter. And they don't talk that much (just that the Eurosport guys were dead silent). But listen to what she says after the performance was over: "It was well skate and lots of fun to watch but far too simple.... I love watching them , but this is too simple" and "they [the judges] have rules to follow." Even when her co-announcer tries to goose the tension or tries to make it seem like more than it is, she won't have it. The same program, the same audience, the same result. But for the television viewers, you leave Sandra Bezic understanding that yes it was fair.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Kurt Browning and Dick Button commentating together is great. Dick Button can occasionally infuriate you (American bias) but he really does provide a supreme understanding of what the essence of skating is, not to mention hilarious comments at times. Kurt is all-around knowledgeable and fun and will take jabs at performances as needed, plus he's one of the few who doesn't back down from Button's opinions.

 

[evangeline]

I often find Judy Blumberg's commentary very informative in ice dance, particularly when she gets into the more technical minutiae of ice dance that most commentators skim over. Blumberg's background as an ISU tech specialist definitely helps here.

Terry Gannon may not have the strongest skating background (esp. when it comes to tech), but it's kind of heartwarming when his love for the sport shines through in his commentary when he gets excited.

I think Tracy Wilson is generally OK but she's definitely had her moments of extreme bias (cough, Nagano ice dance, cough).

I also thought Josee Chouinard was hilarious when she commentated at Canadian Nationals a few years back

 

[Blades of Passion]

Oh God, Chouinard. :disapp:

Her and PJ Kwong together is one of the worst things ever. I laughed so hard, in the worst way possible, when they commentated on Patrick Chan's performance at Canadians last year and talked through EVERY FREAKING SECOND of it (with some of the most reductive and useless chatter possible) and then after the one second they do stop talking, Chouinard suddenly starts talking again, saying "I don't know about you PJ, but I just had to be quiet and enjoy the performance." What a gross, annoying mess.

 

[evangeline]

LOL, Chouinard was terribad to the extent that it was funny. My favourite moment was when she found out what a cantilever was called and breathlessly told the audience, all excited

 

[Tonichelle]

Paul Wylie didn't know what hydroplaning/shoot the ducks were... he was commentating during Nicole Bobek's skate one time and said he didn't think the move had a name so "let's call it a Nicole Bobek"... roz sumners had to explain what it was...

 

[Olympia]

He didn't? That was one of Kerrigan's specialties and they trained together for years. How odd. Well, I missed that exchange. I still like his commentary. Ignorance is curable.

As for Sandra Bezic, I have a soft spot for her, and I can't be too down on her. When I look back at her contributions to skating, I'm in awe. That "Singin' in the Rain" program of Kurt's that we love so much is hers, I believe. So is the torrid duet, Casi Un Bolero, that Gordeyeva and Kulik did in Stars on Ice in about 2000. So are the OGM-winning programs by Brian Boitano, Kristi Yamaguchi, and Tara Lipinski, as well as Underhill/Martini's World Championship-winning program, not to mention Carmen on Ice (the Emmy-winning TV program with Witt and the two Brians).

Here's the Casi un Bolero, with commentary from Sandra as Katia and Ilia rehearse and then perform

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-dpKl10DLg

 

[Tonichelle]

It was during the Pro compeition "Grand Slam" which was kinda like the grand prix, but not lol It was during her "I Need To Know/Let's Get Loud" number iirc... unfortunately youtube only has her COI version of that... gotta see if I still have my tape and maybe I can upload it myself...

it aired on FOX in 2000.

 

[blue_idealist]

LOL, Chouinard was terribad to the extent that it was funny. My favourite moment was when she found out what a cantilever was called and breathlessly told the audience, all excited

YES, that was hilarious! It was during a Shawn Sawyer program that I watched over and over so I remember it well.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Was this Scott and Sandra at their best or worst?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRWHwt91oj0

It certainly helped shake up skating when they told us something was wrong.

Here are their comments leading into the medal ceremony:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iphqlCJoVmo&feature=related

That was an unfortunate result - to have two Olympic gold medals.

My heart went out to Anton and Elena. If I were the judge, I'd have given the Russians the gold. So you know I couldn't be a judge. Anton and Elena's program, even though had a few tiny flaws, had higher quality and much more artistic beauty than Sale&Pelletier's program. I agree that was Sale and Pelletier's best performance. But their best performance did not mean that they were the best. The French judge wasn't the only one who gave Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze the first place. China, Poland, and Ukrane gave them first too besides the Russian judge. How do you explain their motives for giving the Russians the gold and the Canadians the silver?

Even though the final outcome has turned out to prove that Scott and Sandra called out correctly, I still don't like their style of calling out things before and after the results come. Even the judges on the same panel have different opinions. The commentators are not on the panel even if they are as good as the judges. Why should they call out the results if they are not on the judge panel in that paticular competition? The worst thing is the commentators could use their platform to influence the viewers and listeners. Even if their opinions counted in the result, they were maximum one or two opinions (one or two commentators). There were nine judges on a panel. Who's opinions do you think the viewers, especially the viewers who watch skating once in a while and don't know much about skating, would likely accept, the judges' or the commentators'? Most likely the commentators' because they are the one who are talking.

I like Kurt's commentating very much!

 

[Mathman]

China, Poland, and Ukrane gave them first too besides the Russian judge. How do you explain their motives for giving the Russians the gold and the Canadians the silver?

China. Poland, Ukraine and Russia supporting the Russian team? I can't account for it for the life of me.

 

[Puchi]

B/S were the better team, no doubt in my eyes. But they made several mistakes here and there and that effected their overall performance. After they skated, S/P had to skate perfectly in order to beat them. The problem is that S/P were actually perfect in their delivery of the program that night and still lost. That was anticlimatic at best. IMHO S/P deserved the gold based on their flawless performance under such pression. That doesn't mean they were the better team. But they performed better that night.

 

[Buttercup]

Please return the dead horse to its grave to rest in peace. The season has started, there is enough skating to discuss and no reason to resort to this.

As for the actual topic...
Do: Tell viewers a bit about the skaters and the program before it begins, point out key elements during the program, discuss levels, scoring, etc. during the replays as we're waiting for the marks. In short: be informative but don't talk over the performance. And share your opinions and expertise - I like announcers with a point of view - but try to be unbiased as possible, or at least acknowledge your bias if you can't.
Please don't: Talk over the program, engage in blatant homerism, whine about how 6.0 was better while complaining that math is hard, call 13 year olds sexy.

The good: Chris Howatch from Eurosport generally does well, though the Eurosport guys seem to have some opinions and comments in recent years. I also like the Youtube videos from the Spanish channel, I don't know how good the commentary is but there doesn't seem to be an excessive amount of it, and what little I can pick out sounds to the point.
The bad: Italian and French broadcasters who won't shut up; some of the very biased American announcers.

 

[janetfan]

China. Poland, Ukraine and Russia supporting the Russian team? I can't account for it for the life of me.

If we can leave the judges out of it (they are not the announcers) my question was whether Scott and Sandra acted appropriately that evening.

Should they have kept quiet and told us everything was fair and square - or was it part of their job to let us know they thought something was wrong?

Were Scott and Sandra over the top that evening - should they have kept their true opinions to themselves?

Or was it better they showed they have the integrity to call it like they see it?

 

[Mathman]

I think Scott and Sandra got caught up in the emotions of the moment, and then proceeded to fan the flames for everyone else. I don't know whether it was good or bad. They certainly had seen many figure skating contests before in their lives which had not gone the way they expected.

For that matter, I still can't see why the Salt Lake City thing is harped on, even today, as being the the atom bomb that blew up figure skating. Nothing happened in 2002 that hadn't been going on since 1902. Everyone has always known that the judging is sometimes suspect, whether it is the Austrian world champion refusing to skate in Sweden against Ulrich Salchow because he can't get a fair shake, or Sonia Henie's father physically threatening the judges, or the North American Championship being cancelled because both the U.S. and Canada thought the judges for the other side were cheating, or the entire Russian complement of judges being banned from all events for a year in the 1980s because of systematic bias.

Yet when a French judge apparently collaborates with other judges on the panel, well, we are SHOCKED. Just shocked! Bring on anonymous judging quick!

 

[Bluebonnet]

I think Scott and Sandra got caught up in the emotions of the moment, and then proceeded to fan the flames for everyone else. I don't know whether it was good or bad. They certainly had seen many figure skating contests before in their lives which had not gone the way they expected.

It was bad because it was bias regardless whether the result would be later altered or not.

For that matter, I still can't see why the Salt Lake City thing is harped on, even today, as being the the atom bomb that blew up figure skating. Nothing happened in 2002 that hadn't been going on since 1902. Everyone has always known that the judging is sometimes suspect, whether it is the Austrian world champion refusing to skate in Sweden against Ulrich Salchow because he can't get a fair shake, or Sonia Henie's father physically threatening the judges, or the North American Championship being cancelled because both the U.S. and Canada thought the judges for the other side were cheating, or the entire Russian complement of judges being banned from all events for a year in the 1980s because of systematic bias.

Yet when a French judge apparently collaborates with other judges on the panel, well, we are SHOCKED. Just shocked! Bring on anonymous judging quick!

I can't see why the SLC thing is worse than all other under the table things going on before either - even though I don't know much about the previous under the table things but I've suspected that much. I think the French judge was sooooo stupid! Either you do it but don't say it, or you say it but don't do it. You don't do it and say it. Of course, preferably say it but don't do it, or just don't say it and don't do it.

But it surely lead up to a positive outcome - to change the judging system.:thumbsup: So this should be praised as of 2010 Lysacek's quadless Olympic win.

 

[FSGMT]

It was bad because it was bias regardless whether the result would be later altered or not.



I can't see why the SLC thing is worse than all other under the table things going on before either - even though I don't know much about the previous under the table things but I've suspected that much. I think the French judge was sooooo stupid! Either you do it but not say it, or you say it but not do it. You don't do it and say it. Of course, preferably say it but not do it, or just don't say it and don't do it.

But it surely lead up to a positive outcome - to change the judging system.:thumbsup: So this should be praised as of 2010 Lysacek's quadless Olympic win.

I know this is off-topic but I think that the 2002 scandal was so positive for figure skating: it forced everyone to admit that most of the judges were biased and it forced the ISU to change the judging system, and this is something for which I will be always grateful to Le Gogne! (we should maybe create a thread about the IJS?)

 

[janetfan]

I know this is off-topic but I think that the 2002 scandal was so positive for figure skating: it forced everyone to admit that most of the judges were biased and it forced the ISU to change the judging system, and this is something for which I will be always grateful to Le Gogne! (we should maybe create a thread about the IJS?)

As Dick Button points out - does changing the system but keeping the same rascals in charge of ISU, the federations as well as most the judges make any difference?

It seems like a giant leap of faith to believe so.

Back to announcers since someone brought up Evan - after Plushy finished Scott said, "this is gonna be close."

I listened to the Brit EuroSport clip the other day and their announcer said something like, "he did it, Plushenko won."

This was his call before Plushenko's score had been posted.

 

[Mathman]

I think the French judge was sooooo stupid!

I don't think she was stupid. I think she was emotionally fragile and overwrought. She had been solicited and badgered by both the Canadian and Russian contingents for months leading up to the competition. Her own federation president was in the mix, as well as her best personal friend in skating, a Russian official and judge. When she was rushed at by Sally Stapleford in the hotel lobby immediately afterward she broke down in tears. She later said that she truly believed that Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze gave the better performance, but when confronted by the "irate mob" she ended up not knowing what she truly believed.

By the way, here is a reference to the French judge thing from the 2012 summer Olympics, about boxing.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/olympic...rsy-fix-referee-boxing-london-summer-paid-off

 

[Bluebonnet]

I don't think she was stupid. I think she was emotionally fragile and overwrought. She had been solicited and badgered by both the Canadian and Russian contingents for months leading up to the competition. Her own federation president was in the mix, as well as her best personal friend in skating, a Russian official and judge. When she was rushed at by Sally Stapleford in the hotel lobby immediately afterward she broke down in tears. She later said that she truly believed that Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze gave the better performance, but when confronted by the "irate mob" she ended up not knowing what she truly believed.

I sympathize her. So that has proved my belief - the second gold medal shouldn't have given out. And 6.0 was too vague to distinguish which was the correct judgement.