Rachel Flatt Competes Injured Again

[pangtongfan]

You make no sense. There was ONE US judge on the panel, and the technical panel was RUS-ITA-LAT. There couldn't have been a concerted effort to crown anyone. If anything, Sotnikova got the gentlest treatment from the judges, with ultrahigh PCS scores despite major mistakes in both SP and FS.

Agree. Sotnikova was definitely gifted in LP PCS as the mistakes were jarring and really affected the performance. While normally Sotnikova would deserve much higher PCS than Gao, with Sotnikova's performance and Gao being more inspired than usual, I thought the PCS between them should have been roughly tied.

I do agree on Christina deserving to win the SP or atleast be closer to Wagner and Sotnikova than she was. Wagner had a mistake and a much easier program jump wise, Sotnikova had the same jumps and a big mistake, so while those two have some stronger elements and much better presentation qualities they shouldnt have been 4 points ahead.

 

[Mrs. P]

Or compare Flatt's GP's last year, a tenth place finish at SC with a 74 in the FS and 128 total, and a 9th place at Rostelcom with a 147 total. Three GP's in a row with 3 poor performances.

I don't dispute that she had poor performances in the past, all I'm saying is that she didn't do bad considering she had an injury. And that she has fared better at this SA then other skaters at this same event have.

 

[Tonichelle]

OT -- Hey, Toni, cool new avatar!

thanks... I did a fast job on it, so it doesn't look as it could... I love her dress though most don't.

 

[Buttercup]

I think we will be seeing more & more of skaters skating injured. Here's why:

The new minimum TES rules for 4CC's, Worlds & Europeans pretty much assure that all skaters who have a single assignment from their Fed, whether to a Senior B or a GP, pretty much have to skate regardless of their physical condition. They have to take advantage of that one assignment to try to make their qualificaiton.

For example, Pang & Tong were skating injured at Skate America (Tong has knee problems), as was Jeremy Abbott (who is having a serious back problem). P&T were absolutely lovely, particularly in their exhibition program. Jeremy was not particularly lovely, and someone else could have used the spot...however, Jeremy needed it himself to get the qualifying TES for Worlds and 4CC's. He got the SP score for both Worlds & 4CC's, but not the LP TES for Worlds.

Douglas Razzano got the LP score, but not the SP score for Worlds. His SP did not qualify for either event. I have no idea whether he was injured, but he skated a dreadful SP.

As others have noted, skaters do not have to achieve the minimums in the current season if they did so at ISU-recognized events last season. There are quite a few skaters who already have the minimum for this season's Championships, including Abbott and P/T.

This can be a concern for lower ranked skaters, however, as they are less likely to get the needed scores in the preceding season and less likely to get GP assignments this season to make up for it (senior Bs would still be an option, of course). Also for skaters returning after a year off, which is even more worrisome if the reason they missed a season is due to injury.

 

[Olympia]

I looked up "Rachael Flatt Skate America 2012" and got her skating Firebird in that lovely dress from last season. Did I get the correct program? If so, her jumps look solid, but as some of you have said, nothing else stands out, except the lovely Ina Bauer.

 

[dorispulaski]

Olympia, that's a fair assessment. And she was very slow. I had heard how badly she had done at some club competition and was surprised at how nice her jumps were.

 

[janetfan]

You make no sense. There was ONE US judge on the panel, and the technical panel was RUS-ITA-LAT. There couldn't have been a concerted effort to crown anyone. If anything, Sotnikova got the gentlest treatment from the judges, with ultrahigh PCS scores despite major mistakes in both SP and FS.

If I make "no sense" about this I am hardly alone. If I had a nickel for everytime I read "homecooking" or "home ice advanatge" "hometown decision" etc.....I would have many nickels. Let's not leave out the often mentioned "federation lobbying" or "that federation has alot of power and influence."

Alissa's SA win last season over Caro was dismissed by many as a "home ice" decision. There are many examples of this and for you to try and preach to the board about the fairness in skating juging is what makes "no sense."

Are things like "reputation scoring" and "homecooking" just made up by fans when their favorite loses - or is this a continuing problem in skating?

Does anybody really believe that if Alissa and Caro had skated the same in Paris the result would have been the same as it was in USA at Skate America?

If you are right that Adelina's score was inflated at SA you would be a minority as more posts said Ashley and Christina's scores were inflated.

Anyway, my "coronation vs competition" comments are based more on the Ladies selected to compete at SA. It was a very weak field which was no accident.

Add in a little scoring boost for the favorite and voila.......we have our new SA champion.

I hope Chuck is right and I am wrong. I hope there is no unfair boost for skaters on home ice and that reputation scoring is a myth.

Just as I hope every judge is completely honest and there are never any deals being made about how to score certain skaters at certain events.
And let's hope being from a major federation offers no advantage over skaters from smaller federations.

 

[ice coverage]

......and quit trying to pass of your bizarre OPINIONS as facts.

Thankyou

Here's a crazy idea, janetfan:
How about setting a better example and living up to your own request? Then some of us will thank you.

I am American, and you do not speak for me when you insist that the American public has not embraced Ashley Wagner. That is merely your opinion, to which you are perfectly entitled. But repeating it over and over does not make it a fact.
I am cheering for Wagner, and will be very happy for her if she has another successful season.

That does not mean that I am writing off other American ladies. For example:
I would love for Mirai Nagasu to have a good season too.
And I'm thrilled for Christina Gao (who has shown that higher education can be compatible with competitive skating).
I have not drunk the Gracie Gold Kool-Aid, but look forward to seeing whether she deserves the pedestal on which many others already have placed her.

 

[janetfan]

Here's a crazy idea, janetfan:
How about setting a better example and living up to your own request? Then some of us will thank you.

I am American, and you do not speak for me when you insist that the American public has not embraced Ashley Wagner. That is merely your opinion, to which you are perfectly entitled. But repeating it over and over does not make it a fact.
I am cheering for Wagner, and will be very happy for her if she has another successful season.

That does not mean that I am writing off other American ladies. For example:
I would love for Mirai Nagasu to have a good season too.
And I'm thrilled for Christina Gao (who has shown that higher education can be compatible with competitive skating).
I have not drunk the Gracie Gold Kool-Aid, but look forward to seeing whether she deserves the pedestal on which many others already have placed her.

Fair enough - and my comment - taken out of context here - has been resolved.

Nebelhorn is indeed an ISU senior Intl event.
And Mirai did win it.

At the moment the American public has not embraced Ashley or any of our other current skaters.

Maybe the difference between us is that I remember when US skaters were embraced by the American public.

To think Ashley or any of the others (yes, that includes Mirai ) have the recognition that Peggy, Janet, Dorothy, Brian B, Michelle, Sasha and countless others received over the years is simply not true.

It doesn't matter to me if you are American or from somewhere else - perceptions may differ but reality is the same. Sorry if you don't like it or feel differently about the state of skating in USA.

For what it's worth -I don't think of you as part of the "general American public" but rather as a pretty serious and devoted skating fan.

Understanding the difference might make my point more clear to you and others.

BTW , I like Ashley well enough and typically like skaters trained by Mr. Nicks. Ashley seems up to it...seems to want it and besides training hard she has been making a few promotional appearances which I applaud her for.

If Ashley does well in Sochi her public profile will definitely get a big boost - and will be well deserved.

For now she is still relatively unknown in USA -and probably better known in Japan.

 

[Mrs. P]

Olympia, that's a fair assessment. And she was very slow. I had heard how badly she had done at some club competition and was surprised at how nice her jumps were.

She was quite slow, I definitely agree with that.

But like Doris, I was expecting her to double every jump based on all the reports. She actually did six of them cleanly during this competition (the 3L in the SP and five in the FS).

 

[Mrs. P]

I have a ton of non-skating friends in Seattle who saw her appearances on KING 5 and did the live chat on seattletimes.com and were very impressed by her.

No she does not have the name recognition of some past skaters -- but come on, why should one expect that out of someone who just one national championship? I will say this -- within the skating community and skating fans she is very much embraced as a champion, no doubt about that.

 

[cornell08]

You missed my point . If I was judging Christina would have won the SP ....and by a comfortable margin.

But that was never gonna happen in a "sport" like figure skating.

The coronation took precedence .....

Sadly, must agree. I didn't think Ashley's presentation or technical elements were better in either the short or long program..

 

[AlexRus]

Olympia, that's a fair assessment. And she was very slow. I had heard how badly she had done at some club competition and was surprised at how nice her jumps were.

I loved Rachael very much when she was world level skater.
Now I don't understand why she takes place in competitions of high level. Her level of skating is too low for such kind of competitions.
If she wants skate "for herself" - there are very many local competitions in USA.
If she wants to take place in national and world level events - she must be much higher level. He may obtain this level if skating in her life will be at first place. Her jumps were at Skate America better than Leonova's (who is not extremely talented, but works very-very hard), and trainings (6 hours a day at least), diet and so on may give her needed level.
Rachael should choose - world level or "skating for herself".

 

[mskater93]

Americans love (and love to hate) a winner (or at least someone who can hit the podium consistently in championship events and the Olympics). This is why Tiger Woods, the Williams sisters, Lance Armstrong (before his fall from grace) and the Yankees are loved (and hated). When an American lady is consistent and back on the podium and challenging for the gold medal, then the American public will embrace her.

 

[chuckm]

One of the problems with ISU judging is that the judges tend to reputation-score: skaters who have achieved high international results in the past will get higher PCS scores than skaters who so far haven't reached the same level internationally.

Sotnikova is a former JGPF and JW champion who won two medals in the GP last season. Ashley Wagner is the 2012 4CC champion who finished 4th at 2012 Worlds. Christina Gao hasn't done much internationally since she moved up to Senior competition.

Judges will tend to score past winners high even if they don't skate completely cleanly. That is not the way the system was supposed to work, as judges should be scoring based on what they see in front of them in the moment, not on what the skater has done in the past. But that is the reality.

 

[janetfan]

Sadly, must agree. I didn't think Ashley's presentation or technical elements were better in either the short or long program..

I was talking about the SP......

I happen to like Ashley's choreographer and Mr Nicks has always been so good at presenting a skater in a way that highlights their stengths.

I like Ashley's LP......very dramatic, and she does a good job selling it.
But tech-wise there was no 3x3, no 2A+3T and in the second half she managed to hold onto a few landings - as opposed to really nailing them.

Did she really earn that high score or was this just another of the endless examples of" homecooking" at a figureskating event?

BTW, I thought Ashley won fair and square and that the podium was right.

I wonder about the numeric scores we get from the CoP........

In 6.0 it was always enough when the podium seemed right.

Today it feels less sure and by that I mean we see controversy even when we agree with the podium.
Not sure how much that helps the already tainted reputation of skating in USA.

ETA: I agree with Chuck's preceding post #55 - maybe someday the problems he outlined will be addressed by ISU.

But pretty certain it won't happen until a new regime is running ISU. We know what the current group has been more than willing to put up with over the years.

 

[Mrs. P]

Ashley had about the same layout at SA as she did at 4CC. However at SA, she definitely had more power in her jumps, even at the ones she saved at the end. And judges gave her the appropriate GOE for those later jumps -- for the leaning 3F and the wonky 3L-2A sequence, she got several zeros and even a few -GOE, so I don't think she was gifted any points.

Ashley got averages in the 7s and 8s at SA. I don't think she deserved to have PCS in the 6s, certainly. She was powerful out there and full of energy and expression from beginning to end. I think that is reflected in the strong PCS scores.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Judges will tend to score past winners high even if they don't skate completely cleanly. That is not the way the system was supposed to work, as judges should be scoring based on what they see in front of them in the moment, not on what the skater has done in the past. But that is the reality.

It works exactly as it sets out to. When Christina skates clean and Adelina makes mistakes, that doesn't automatically make Christina's skating skills superior. It means she executed her elements better, and that is reflected in the TES scores.

 

[Mrs. P]

It works exactly as it sets out to. When Christina skates clean and Adelina makes mistakes, that doesn't automatically make Christina's skating skills superior. It means she executed her elements better, and that is reflected in the TES scores.

I agree. Christina definitely had the skate of her life, but as I said somewhere, Adelina has great ice coverage and skates big even with the mistakes. The PCS margin is just about right. And really Christina won on TES, which is right too.

 

[fairly4]

i am not going to tell you what i really think, and should be stated, because the sport couldn't handle it.