Was Suzuki twice a victim of underscoring and pageantry in PCS?

[bigsisjiejie]

Mao was second in FS, and won overall by slim margin. I do not understand the fuss about unfair judging on her. Her jumping mistakes did not affect her overall performance, and she performed nearly perfectly for all other elements. it is not like she fell for multiple times and took time to go back to program or slowed down out of exhaustion. Even with a few jump mistakes, her performance was well executed and deserves high PCS.

Well, she could have performed it even better and maybe got even higher PCS, if she'd just cut out the doubles and performed all single jumps! This is a point being lost by many in the discussion: when your program is watered down on the jumps (whether you intend it or not), then it makes some of the PCS components easier to achieve. I see this as one of the unaddressed problems with this judging system.

 

[mskater93]

Mao was second in FS, and won overall by slim margin. I do not understand the fuss about unfair judging on her. Her jumping mistakes did not affect her overall performance, and she performed nearly perfectly for all other elements. it is not like she fell for multiple times and took time to go back to program or slowed down out of exhaustion. Even with a few jump mistakes, her performance was well executed and deserves high PCS.

I disagree that her performance was "well executed". If it was well executed, she would not have popped three jumps and the program, to me, with those mistakes came across flat in how it was presented. I personally have issues with the way PE is scored as I believe it should be a relative score as opposed to another number in the "correct PCS range for a given skater" that is expected of the judges. While I would have a hard time quibbling with any individual component score within IJS based upon the scoring criteria in either the SP or the LP for both Asada and Suzuki, I personally felt Suzuki's overall (both programs) was >>>> than Asada's but there is no method of quantifying that in IJS.

 

[jenaj]

Mao was second in FS, and won overall by slim margin. I do not understand the fuss about unfair judging on her. Her jumping mistakes did not affect her overall performance, and she performed nearly perfectly for all other elements. it is not like she fell for multiple times and took time to go back to program or slowed down out of exhaustion. Even with a few jump mistakes, her performance was well executed and deserves high PCS.

I wonder how many other times judges have given positive GOE for a triple popped into a double? I'm not saying it has never happened, but it seems odd. I would think that the base score should be the best a skater could get for a popped jump.

 

[mskater93]

On a relative scale, GOE is much less for singles and doubles than for triples, but if even ONE of those popped jumps gets BV, Asada loses...

 

[gkelly]

I wonder how many other times judges have given positive GOE for a triple popped into a double?

In short programs, never, unless the judges made a mistake (or unless it's a double axel instead of a triple as the solo axel jump, more likely in the men's event) because if a triple is required in the SP, the GOE is required to be -3.

I'm not saying it has never happened, but it seems odd. I would think that the base score should be the best a skater could get for a popped jump.

What do you mean by "popped"?

In long programs, skaters are allowed to do whatever jumps they want, as long as they have at least one axel, don't repeat more than they're allowed, and don't do more combinations than allowed. They're allowed to do doubles. Below the top elite levels, it's expected that some senior ladies will plan some doubles because they don't have enough different triples in their repertoire to fill seven jumping passes -- the very weakest senior ladies won't try any triples at all in their freeskates.

So even for the elite skaters, male and female, who are expected to do the six or seven or eight triples (and maybe a quad or two), they have the option of turning a planned triple into a double on purpose whenever they want during a freeskate, if they're slightly off balance or feeling fatigued or don't have enough speed or the ice doesn't feel right or they're running out of room, etc., etc. If it comes out as a good-quality double then it deserves positive GOE.

A "popped" jump in which the skater intends to do a triple but the body doesn't cooperate in the air is more likely to have an awkward air position, which would be a case against positive GOE and maybe a reason for -1. But if there are other good things about the jump compared to a just-OK intentional double (or triple) -- e.g., speed, height, distance, difficult entry, etc., then it would make sense for a judge to think "There were enough things about that jump that were better than just OK to deserve +2 GOE, but the rhythm and air position were not well controlled, so I'll reduce it to just +1."

That's why when a skater does a big popped single jump we often see GOEs ranging from -1 to +1, depending how many judges focus on the awkward air position and rhythm and how many focus on the size and speed of the jump which would usually be much more impressive than the average single jump by skaters at a level where single jumps are expected.

If it looks like a good double (or good single) and you would have to know the skater and know the planned program content to know for sure that a triple was planned there, then positive GOE is absolutely appropriate. There's no GOE reduction required for "I know that skater is capable of triples and was planning a triple here so that double was a mistake."

 

[StellaCampo]

Well, she (ie Mao) could have performed it even better and maybe got even higher PCS, if she'd just cut out the doubles and performed all single jumps! This is a point being lost by many in the discussion: when your program is watered down on the jumps (whether you intend it or not), then it makes some of the PCS components easier to achieve. I see this as one of the unaddressed problems with this judging system.

I'm glad some one has brought up this issue.
When a skater has a high number of triple jumps in an LP, transitions, entries and exits into/out of the jumps, can only be so difficult as to allow successful execution of triple jumps. If an elite skater elects to skate an LP with nearly 40% of jumps in doubles and singles, that LP must be a programme with greater emphasis on artistry than athleticism. Transitions, entries and exits must be all the more difficult and artistically more satisfying than an LP with only triples. And the double/single jumps themselves must be of higher quality in terms of height, distance, air position, choreography whilst in the air, etc. I'd love to refer to 1As executed by John Curry and Robin Cousins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKh7XS54gBg at 0.37 onwards; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEec6XAhsUg at 0.32 onwards).
Now, Mao's LP has been structured to accommodate 5 stand-alone triples with the degree of difficulty of transitions, entries/exits commensurate with this jump content. But in the actual skate, instead of 5 triples she executed 1 triple, 3 doubles and 1 single, WITHOUT CHANGING THE DEGREE OF DIFFUCULTY OF TRANSITIONS ETC. No wonder audience is not impressed. With that number of doubles and singles, we are entitled to expect an exceptional level of artistry, if not athleticism. In fact if a skater came up with a programme with a mixture of triples, doubles and singles with creative and original transitions, etc, etc, skated with superb skating skills and musicality, this would be a significant challenge to the current ISU regime.

 

[pangtongfan]

Suzuki was not undermarked in either of her events. She was victimized by the fact Osmond and especialy Asada were OVERmarked. Had she rotated her loop in the short and not URed one triple in the long, she would have scored about 130 in the LP and over 190 overall. That is as high as her numbers should realistically ever go. Asada though would not match her SP or LP score anywhere else with the same performances. If she skates like that in the GP final (meaning Asada) she is in for a rude awakening as it aint Japan anymore.

 

[gkelly]

If an elite skater elects to skate an LP with nearly 40% of jumps in doubles and singles, that LP must be a programme with greater emphasis on artistry than athleticism. Transitions, entries and exits must be all the more difficult and artistically more satisfying than an LP with only triples. And the double/single jumps themselves must be of higher quality in terms of height, distance, air position, choreography whilst in the air, etc.

Yes, good point -- with lesser jump content, the skating between the elements would need to be more complex to deserve the same high transitions, execution, or choreography component scores.

Since we have seen from a few of the top men, especially P. Chan in his best performances, complex well-executed programs that include top 21st century jump content, we have an idea of what a program that deserves scores of 9-10 for those components. The same program with lesser jump content, or several failures on the difficult attempted jumps, might only deserve 8s or even 7s.

With the ladies, we haven't really seen anyone attempting that level of complexity AND jump content. When Asada or, a few years ago, Kostner have tried, they haven't succeeded in executing everything successfully. Mostly the most complex women's programs still tend to be simpler than the most complex men's programs.

How can judges calibrate what a given program layout would deserve with all clean doubles or with all clean triples and then parse out the difference when they get some clean doubles, some clean triples, and also some singles or failed/flawed triples? Gut feeling? Should there be a formula all can use, for more consistency?

In fact if a skater came up with a programme with a mixture of triples, doubles and singles with creative and original transitions, etc, etc, skated with superb skating skills and musicality, this would be a significant challenge to the current ISU regime.

I'd love to see that.

If a rejuvenated Janet Lynn came out in 2012 and performed her 1972 free skate, with one so-so triple and the rest of the jumps good doubles including a couple of axels, what kind of PCS should she deserve given that everyone else is doing simpler programs with more difficult jumps?

Ditto with John Curry's 1976 performance, as is but with 30 seconds edited out to meet today's rules?

 

[Skater Boy]

Back to Akiko. Because of her short program I can see how she could lose both SC and NHK. It was close; the luck wasn't with her but who knows about the gpf - though I think Wagner will win and show she is the one to beat this year. If Akiko can be consistent she'll earn silver; maybe gold if Wagner makes a slip. Then comes world she can battle yuna who might not be in fighting shape to beat Ashley. Wagner is the one to beat this year I think.

 

[OS]

Beauty is the eyes of the beholder. Besides with the vast majority of those judges being women, I highly doubt that played much of a factor.

What a nice and lovely thing to say. Unfortunately it is also far form reality.

Should it matter in sport? No. Does it matter in figure skating, unfortunately it Yes.

May be my view is different than yours because I went to an all girl school (yeah that should do it ), and i know beauty absolutely matters in everything regardless if you are in the company of women (and arguably in particularly in the company of women). This is a sport where aesthetics are appraised, that is why skaters wear nice make up, pay attention to their hair, costumes, themes, and most skater would prefer pretty music that are going to flatter their presentation. But should it matter to over ride everything else? Absolutely not. That is why TES is the most important credible part of the COP. Why do you think Miki was never as popular as Mao in Japan? She even had the quads earlier in her career which arguably was just as impressive.

I am curious if we show the 2x2 performances from NHK to a bunch of 12 years olds IN Japan, and ask which skator should win, I bet 9/10 will pick Mao. It seems to me some ISU judges at NHK 2012 were't that much different from a bunch of 12 years olds by 0.05 at least.




To answer the question: Was Suzuki twice a victim of underscoring and pageantry in PCS?

Answer: Yes, but more than twice actually. Something I noticed since her Olympics, but I just love the fact she keeps on going, even putting up 2 lutz in her FS just to make it a point. I love the fact there seems to be hardcore figure skating fans always support her which shows how underrated she is relative to her actual results. Given this is a sport that is a human judged one (humans by nature can be fickle though we try not to be), I think her attitude will get her far not to mention she made so many personal breakthroughs these past 2 seasons.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think Akiko should have won both events (despite her weaker SPs). I think she was marked accurately, but I think the two women who beat her were overmarked. Mao benefitted from marginal UR calls and +GOE on jumps she popped into doubles. Kaetlyn IMO was overmarked in PCS. The important thing is that Akiko doesn't put herself in trouble after the SP, because the skaters' marks are higher if they can be near the top going into the LP.

 

[hohoho]

Compared to Asada at NHK, I don't see where Osmond was overscored at SC. Suzuki done it to herself with her short program. Osmond basically scored the same as Nebelhorn (which I thought was undermarked) and she was definitely undermarked in the short at SC to allow for Suzuki to score well. But that didn't happen. If Suzuki had a FS at SC similar to NHK she would have won. Her programs seemed slow at SC and, I think, not well executed. I actually lost interest watching.

 

[wallylutz]

What a nice and lovely thing to say. Unfortunately it is also far form reality.

Should it matter in sport? No. Does it matter in figure skating, unfortunately it Yes.

May be my view is different than yours because I went to an all girl school (yeah that should do it ), and i know beauty absolutely matters in everything regardless if you are in the company of women (and arguably in particularly in the company of women). This is a sport where aesthetics are appraised, that is why skaters wear nice make up, pay attention to their hair, costumes, themes, and most skater would prefer pretty music that are going to flatter their presentation. But should it matter to over ride everything else? Absolutely not. That is why TES is the most important credible part of the COP. Why do you think Miki was never as popular as Mao in Japan? She even had the quads earlier in her career which arguably was just as impressive.

I am curious if we show the 2x2 performances from NHK to a bunch of 12 years olds IN Japan, and ask which skator should win, I bet 9/10 will pick Mao. It seems to me some ISU judges at NHK 2012 were't that much different from a bunch of 12 years olds by 0.05 at least.

Beauty matters in everything we do, except it's hard to rank it. The argument here is that Suzuki doesn't do as well because she is not as pretty as Asada. I find that argument to be weak. In singles skating, I haven't found the "beauty" of the skaters to matter greatly, even less so in men. Was Ando pretty? Was Kim or Meissner considered beautiful? To be honest, they all more or less look the same to me. They are all fine, it's rare to find a female skater who really stands out physically. The only example I can recall in recent years is Kiira Korpi where I have even heard people commenting that she looks like an actress at the Olympics Games in Vancouver. Every other girl, Asada, Suzuki, Kostner, you name it, just nothing special. So I am having a hard time understanding why some people believe Asada won it on her "beauty". It's such a personal choice.

Rather, I think some skaters can be more charming than others. Take example of Daisuke Takahashi. Undoubtedly, he is extremely popular with a lot of female fans. Then again, is it because he is considered beautiful for a man? I am not sure. I am confident many find him very attractive but not necessarily all physical. If I have to take a guess, from a pure physical standpoint, you either adore him or you don't because his style is very particular so it's either you get it or you don't. But the fact he displayed good sportsmanship, a great showman and down to earth - all make him very charming. With that said, I think Asada have qualities that Suzuki doesn't have off ice that makes her more marketable in eyes of certain stakeholders. But from a pure physical standpoint, I am not convinced she is that much different from Suzuki if you omit the fact she is much younger than Suzuki but that's about it.

 

[gkelly]

I think the "beauty" that is rewarded in skating is often more related to carriage and body lines (most of which is related to skills that skaters can intentionally develop, but they can't do much about body proportions) and to the quality of movement ("soft knees", flowing edges, relaxed controlled use of the whole body). Facial structure is probably less important, although it can have a subconscious effect in skating as in all areas of life.

 

[wallylutz]

I think the "beauty" that is rewarded in skating is often more related to carriage and body lines (most of which is related to skills that skaters can intentionally develop, but they can't do much about body proportions) and to the quality of movement ("soft knees", flowing edges, relaxed controlled use of the whole body). Facial structure is probably less important, although it can have a subconscious effect in skating as in all areas of life.

I think your characterization is fairly accurate as far as singles skating is concerned. Given this thread is regarding : pageantry in PCS, I doubt the OP meant simply that Asada has better body lines or fluid movement.

It's hard enough to deal with national bias and potential reputation influence on scoring, adding pageantry into the mix just seems to makes thing a lot more complicate. Who would want that?

 

[gkelly]

I'm confused by what is meant by "pageantry" in this context.

Definitions of the word: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pageantry

Do any of these apply? Or is the word being used to mean something like "judging a sports contest as if it were a beauty contest (beauty pageant) instead"?

 

[chloepoco]

What a nice and lovely thing to say. Unfortunately it is also far form reality.

Should it matter in sport? No. Does it matter in figure skating, unfortunately it Yes.

May be my view is different than yours because I went to an all girl school (yeah that should do it ), and i know beauty absolutely matters in everything regardless if you are in the company of women (and arguably in particularly in the company of women). This is a sport where aesthetics are appraised, that is why skaters wear nice make up, pay attention to their hair, costumes, themes, and most skater would prefer pretty music that are going to flatter their presentation. But should it matter to over ride everything else? Absolutely not. That is why TES is the most important credible part of the COP. Why do you think Miki was never as popular as Mao in Japan? She even had the quads earlier in her career which arguably was just as impressive.

I am curious if we show the 2x2 performances from NHK to a bunch of 12 years olds IN Japan, and ask which skator should win, I bet 9/10 will pick Mao. It seems to me some ISU judges at NHK 2012 were't that much different from a bunch of 12 years olds by 0.05 at least.

I also attended an all girls' high school; thankfully, my experience must have been different from yours. We were judged, both by peers and teachers, on our capabilities and accomplishments, not on our physical attributes.

As far as the judges at NHK, you and I may not agree with the results, but that doesn't mean that the judges were swayed by Mao's "beauty". And as someone said, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder ~ I find both Mao and Akiko equally attractive.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think the "beauty" that is rewarded in skating is often more related to carriage and body lines (most of which is related to skills that skaters can intentionally develop, but they can't do much about body proportions) and to the quality of movement ("soft knees", flowing edges, relaxed controlled use of the whole body). Facial structure is probably less important, although it can have a subconscious effect in skating as in all areas of life.

I agree. There have been some (facially) very attractive champions and some who have been average looking. Akiko's marks are fine she just needs to skate a better SP because she isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt when she makes mistakes. It isn't because she isn't pretty, but rather her skating skills frankly are not as good as Mao's. For her to be 2 points behind Mao in PCS for the LP puts her easily within reach of the title had she skated a good SP.

 

[Mrs. P]

I agree. There have been some (facially) very attractive champions and some who have been average looking. Akiko's marks are fine she just needs to skate a better SP because she isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt when she makes mistakes. It isn't because she isn't pretty, but rather her skating skills frankly are not as good as Mao's. For her to be 2 points behind Mao in PCS for the LP puts her easily within reach of the title had she skated a good SP.

ITA. Akiko has always been a weak SP skater who has had to come from behind in the FS. Does anyone remember when she was 20th at 2010 Worlds and had to skate in the first group but managed to finish 7th in the FS and got 11th overall? That's probably the worst example.

At Japanese Nationals, 2009 4th (6;3) 2010 2nd (4;2) 2011 4th (7;4) 2012 2nd (3;1).
Worlds: 2010 11th (20;7) 2012 3rd (5th;2nd)
4CC: 2009 8th (9;8) 010 2nd (1;2) 2011 7th (6;7)
GPF: 2009 3rd (5;3) 2010 4th (4;5 )2011 2nd (2;3)
GP events:
NHK: 2008 2nd (4;2) 2011 1st (1;2);2012 2nd (5;1)
SC: 2009 5th (8;5) 2011 2nd (4;1) 2012 2nd (5;1)
COC: 2009 1st (4;1); 2010 2nd (1;2)
COR: 2010 2nd (2;2)

Now with the exception of Worlds 2010, she doesn't bomb as badly like Ashley Wagner did and is usually within striking distance to easily get a medal and even win; but it would give her some buffer if she did not make mistakes in the SP.

 

[OS]

Beauty matters in everything we do, except it's hard to rank it. The argument here is that Suzuki doesn't do as well because she is not as pretty as Asada. I find that argument to be weak. In singles skating, I haven't found the "beauty" of the skaters to matter greatly, even less so in men. Was Ando pretty? Was Kim or Meissner considered beautiful? To be honest, they all more or less look the same to me. They are all fine, it's rare to find a female skater who really stands out physically. The only example I can recall in recent years is Kiira Korpi where I have even heard people commenting that she looks like an actress at the Olympics Games in Vancouver. Every other girl, Asada, Suzuki, Kostner, you name it, just nothing special. So I am having a hard time understanding why some people believe Asada won it on her "beauty". It's such a personal choice.

Rather, I think some skaters can be more charming than others. Take example of Daisuke Takahashi. Undoubtedly, he is extremely popular with a lot of female fans. Then again, is it because he is considered beautiful for a man? I am not sure. I am confident many find him very attractive but not necessarily all physical. If I have to take a guess, from a pure physical standpoint, you either adore him or you don't because his style is very particular so it's either you get it or you don't. But the fact he displayed good sportsmanship, a great showman and down to earth - all make him very charming. With that said, I think Asada have qualities that Suzuki doesn't have off ice that makes her more marketable in eyes of certain stakeholders. But from a pure physical standpoint, I am not convinced she is that much different from Suzuki if you omit the fact she is much younger than Suzuki but that's about it.

What is aesthetic if it does not account for beauty?

Bare in mind I am not talking about whether something you or I find beautiful, but about subjective within the context of NHK taking place in Japan how Mao, Miki and Suzuki are perceived by JSF as #1. #2, #3 etc where media/commercial pressure certainly have played a large part too (Sport popularity, ice shows, sponsorships and so forth).

It is my feeling it is this perceived ranking spilt onto PCS scoring and made the difference in the ranking. If beauty doesn't matter, why isn't Akiko favoured like Hanyu (who's certainly beautifu/skated beautifully, at least to me) seems to have over taken Kozuka this year as Japan's #2? (or Why Kozuka seem to have lost his PCS he deserve) And similarly why is the media there always obsessed with Mao when it is Miki who won the WC, and Akiko was the one podiumed last year?

If this NHK competition took place in another Grand Prix say TEB, can you honestly say the results would have been same? That is my whole argument. There's no doubt Mao is their perceived #1 favourite for the last quads and their big skater for Sochi as was the Vancouver, and while she is a great skater, Mao benefit a great deal from her beauty (yes including skating) that is practically a nice litte cottage industry in Japan that the sport benefit from. There's nothing wrong to acknowledge this because it happens to be true, it undoubtly benefited her through out her career.

I also attended an all girls' high school; thankfully, my experience must have been different from yours. We were judged, both by peers and teachers, on our capabilities and accomplishments, not on our physical attributes.

As far as the judges at NHK, you and I may not agree with the results, but that doesn't mean that the judges were swayed by Mao's "beauty". And as someone said, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder ~ I find both Mao and Akiko equally attractive.

Sorry for being blunt, but if your school did not educate you ALSO on the importance of physical attribute then, then it seems it hasn't taught you a well rounded view of the real world as you should. Certainly things should be learnt not from text books or syllabus, but also from peers with common sense. If your head girl do not make an effort for nice presentation including physical appearance, sorry, I just don't buy it.

Apart from that while I can understand why acknowledging of beauty / pageantry in this sport might annoy some people who prefer to see competition won entirely on the sporting merit of the performance and the skater, but to me it is one big fallacy when a key judging criteria of the sport includes aesthetics. Otherwise why people present themselves certain ways, and smile to the judges? It is no accident certain popular and well 'reputable' performers do look certain ways in anything having to do with performance art in which I consider figure skating is part of.