Question on PCS/Presentation scores

[Skating91]

Do costumes/make-up/hair contribute to PCS or Presentation scores...and if not, then why do skaters especially females go to such great expense spending thousands on a single costume, and hours preparing hair and make-up for an event if it has no influence on PCS?

For the record, I believe costume/make-up/hair contributes to PCS, is almost always reflected in the score, and a mistake has been made if it hasn't affected the score. However, I could be mistaken (along with many skaters).

I am interested to read your thoughts!

 

[Remilia]

If it actually mattered we wouldn't see so many men with half-assed "costumes." Unless you think it only matters for the woman?

 

[Arigato]

Last time I checked, Yuzu and Shoma aren't women. They both spent thousands on a single costume, designed especially for them by Satomi Ito. Oh, I just realized - Ilia had her make one for him as well.

To suggest costumes increase PCS is an insult to someone's ability to skate. I don't care what their gender is. Also, just because the costume costs thousands, doesn't mean it's pleasing to look at. Ilia's costumes are dreadful.

 

[ladyjane]

I suppose it helps when a costume is pleasing to look at, and fits the music. I mean I really liked Olivia en Tim's Dune costumes (I know the film and the books too). I am sure that made them express themselves better. I mean, watching a Dune programme while the skaters are wearing some kind of glittery costume would distract from the programme. Having said that, I don't think that if someone is skating badly (especially skating skills component) the constume would be magnifying scores. Reputation maybe, costume no. But it could work the other way round: a 'wrong' costume is too distracting from the programme.

 

[Mathematician]

Psychologically it is simply a fact that better looking skaters will be scored better.

Whether it should be this way or not, I dont know. It makes clear sense though why they try so hard to look good.

Otherwise I think it is an unspoken truth that skaters are expected to put effort into their appearance and especially their costume for the sake of the spectators.

The music is there for a reason. There is a reason we are not just watching skaters jump and get graded without music or choreography. Beauty is necessarily an aspect of figure skating. You could say it is just to demonstrate rhythmic capability. Ok, then just add a bland, highly complex rhythm as the music and let them all use the same track to get an even more objective grading. No? You prefer 18 separate programs from the classical to modern ballade? Ok. Beauty might be the most common attractor for people to watch the sport. It feels disrespectful and irreverent if a skater does not put effort into the aesthetic image. It can come off as quite arrogant.

I do not think there should be a separate category for costume or appearance. However the presentation PCS category is about the general impression and emotional engagement one can develop. It also somewhere mentions specifically about the believability and character of the program. To deny the visual appearance of the skater does not apply here is obscene.

So yes, it matters.

If it actually mattered we wouldn't see so many men with half-assed "costumes."

It is significantly harder to get a good costume as man. A dress is one light piece of clothing. It can be made entirely from athletic material and still be gorgeous. Add vibrant colours or some sophisticated design that won't affect performance at all and you have a fashion show. With men, even skating in a basic button-up and dress pants is a completely different challenge. It will take an expert to create properly skating-appropriate attire which indeed will cost one heavily. Some skaters even put on an entire suit for their program. This can get clunky and jarring extremely quickly if not done with the highest specialization and care. Think about standard fashion for men and women. When men are to look professional they have significantly more pieces of attire and it is significantly heavier. The variety is also greater. For women the dress is a universal piece of clothing which can fit the most sophisticated or casual circumstance. That being said I have seen plenty of great male skating costumes and it absolutely benefits the program. Yuzuru's costumes consistently looked great. If modern male skaters can't compare thats a them problem! It still matters. Denying that visual aesthetics matter is unbelievable.

 

[FlossieH]

The costume can help a skater to get into character for their programme and can also help make them feel good. Both of those can impact indirectly on their performance and thus the performance element of the PCS, but the costume does not in itself gain them any marks. Problems with a costume can lead to a mandatory deduction (from the total mark for the programme, not the PCS) e.g. if something comes undone or falls off. Kyrylo Marsak missed out on the final at Junior Worlds one season because a strap came loose at the bottom of his trousers and the referee stopped the programme for him to fix it, which incurred a deduction.

 

[TallyT]

Figure skating has a strong and absolutely vital aesthetic element, costumes are a part of it despite the odd call every so often for them to be ditched and everyone wear plain black UA; as is the music, the interpretation, the artistry despite other odd calls for them to just do jumping drills or go back to figures, and yes even the makeup (mind you, I know quite a few women who won't set foot out of their houses without the full do). Does it contribute to PCS/Presentation? Maybe not consciously, but at least in the women and ID disciplines I wouldn't be surprised if the way they look and the more or less appealing visuals do influence the judges at least a little. And maybe more.

And they are also playing to their public, aren't they? (Which is why some of the women wear makeup to competition practice, they are on display and it's part of the display.) It's less accepted these days to 'rate' the skaters on their beauty but it's still commented on when they are (hellloooo, Madison Chock) and costumes are an endless source of fascination and therefore publicity. Remember the wild excitement of audiences and social media any time Yuzuru - as mentioned above, his costumes and Shoma's, then and now cost a heap and it shows - revealed a new one, even at ice shows. Look at how people discuss and love the Korean girl's exquisite dresses, those of Lisa McKinnon and Satomi Ito.

 

[Arigato]

Yuzuru's costumes consistently looked great. If modern male skaters can't compare thats a them problem! It still matters. Denying that visual aesthetics matter is unbelievable.

When I watch Yuzu at Sochi skate his SP, I never say: "Would you look at how handsome he is in that blue shirt!" With his opening jump I shout every time, "Would you look at those in-air rotations! Christ!"

I couldn't care less what he is wearing. Some of us really do give a hoot about the skill. Especially Yuzu's.

 

[jenaj]

Psychologically it is simply a fact that better looking skaters will be scored better.

Whether it should be this way or not, I dont know. It makes clear sense though why they try so hard to look good.

Otherwise I think it is an unspoken truth that skaters are expected to put effort into their appearance and especially their costume for the sake of the spectators.

The music is there for a reason. There is a reason we are not just watching skaters jump and get graded without music or choreography. Beauty is necessarily an aspect of figure skating. You could say it is just to demonstrate rhythmic capability. Ok, then just add a bland, highly complex rhythm as the music and let them all use the same track to get an even more objective grading. No? You prefer 18 separate programs from the classical to modern ballade? Ok. Beauty might be the most common attractor for people to watch the sport. It feels disrespectful and irreverent if a skater does not put effort into the aesthetic image. It can come off as quite arrogant.

I do not think there should be a separate category for costume or appearance. However the presentation PCS category is about the general impression and emotional engagement one can develop. It also somewhere mentions specifically about the believability and character of the program. To deny the visual appearance of the skater does not apply here is obscene.

So yes, it matters.


It is significantly harder to get a good costume as man. A dress is one light piece of clothing. It can be made entirely from athletic material and still be gorgeous. Add vibrant colours or some sophisticated design that won't affect performance at all and you have a fashion show. With men, even skating in a basic button-up and dress pants is a completely different challenge. It will take an expert to create properly skating-appropriate attire which indeed will cost one heavily. Some skaters even put on an entire suit for their program. This can get clunky and jarring extremely quickly if not done with the highest specialization and care. Think about standard fashion for men and women. When men are to look professional they have significantly more pieces of attire and it is significantly heavier. The variety is also greater. For women the dress is a universal piece of clothing which can fit the most sophisticated or casual circumstance. That being said I have seen plenty of great male skating costumes and it absolutely benefits the program. Yuzuru's costumes consistently looked great. If modern male skaters can't compare thats a them problem! It still matters. Denying that visual aesthetics matter is unbelievable.

What proof do you have for these claims? How did Nathan Chen get such high PCS with costumes that look like he bought them off the rack? "Visual aesthetics" are for the audience. It is part of what makes people want to watch skating.

 

[Mathematician]

When I watch Yuzu at Sochi skate his SP, I never say: "Would you look at how handsome he is in that blue shirt!" With his opening jump I shout every time, "Would you look at those in-air rotations! Christ!"

I couldn't care less what he is wearing. Some of us really do give a hoot about the skill. Especially Yuzu's.

I definitely said it should not have its own category. I said it affects the believability and character of the program. Which is a criteria. If someone is skating a Tchaikovsky program and has a rock n' roll outfit, do you really think that does not matter? If it does, then you accept the premise. If you think it does not, you are in an extreme minority.

What proof do you have for these claims? How did Nathan Chen get such high PCS with costumes that look like he bought them off the rack? "Visual aesthetics" are for the audience. It is part of what makes people want to watch skating.

Which claim am I supposed to prove? That outfit affects the character of the program? See what I said above. Let me know what you think. Nathan Chen got high PCS because he can skate very well. Did I say that the outfit is supposed to take off 10 points or did I just say its logically a factor? Nathan's SP outfit at OLYs was fine, BTW. Nothing wrong about it at all. The FS outfit was lackluster but not that bad. I hope nobody derived somehow from what I said that a mediocre outfit should take you from first to third or kill your PCS single handedly.

 

[Arigato]

This costume was so distracting. A yellow giraffe. But he won gold. Poor Gershwin.

 

[Mathematician]

This costume was so distracting. A yellow giraffe. But he won gold.

But the criteria was completely different then. They just got a single number on the general artistic impression. PCS wasn't even a thing. There was no "presentation" category which specifically criticizes believability of the program. So I wonder still if you think a rock n' roll costume for, say, a Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy program would negatively affect the believability and character of the program? Using specific ISU language in 2025?

 

[Arigato]

But the criteria was completely different then. They just got a single number on the general artistic impression. PCS wasn't even a thing. There was no "presentation" category which specifically criticizes believability of the program. So I wonder still if you think a rock n' roll costume for, say, a Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy program would negatively affect the believability and character of the program? Using specific ISU language in 2025?

Oh, come on. You get my point and you know it. Sugar Plum Fairy? lol.

 

[Mathematician]

Oh, come on. You get my point and you know it. Sugar Plum Fairy? lol.

I do get your point. I am not denying it. You make the point that in spite of a mediocre outfit you can still win. Our discussion is not an exclusive binary in that one of us must be completely incorrect. My inquiry is more fundamental to that of the premise in itself. Its a true dichotomy. Either it affects PCS or not at all, as in non-zero or zero. The argument can be had on magnitude or degree of effect after the premise is established as either true or false. If you agree that a rock n' roll outfit in a Sugar Plum Fairy program should be reflected in the PCS for violating the believability of the program, then we agree on the premise, which is the main contention. If not, then the discussion is over, and you agree to be a dissident, which is fine; those are everywhere. Again, the program by Kulik was performed almost 30 years ago where believability was not a specific criteria. I am not being hostile or argumentative, I am genuinely trying to reach a logical conclusion. If the specific criteria in 2025 says the believability is a criteria, and an inappropriate outfit can, even if in the most comically extreme hypothetical, have a real effect on the scoring, then the answer to the question of this thread is: yes.

 

[el henry]

The criteria do not require in any way, shape or form that a skater needs to wear a certain costume or have a certain esthetic for presentation. Jason could wear a gunny sack and still get deservedly high marks for PCS, as could certain others.

However, I am a costume fan, and from a strictly personal perspective, would love to see far more of Anthony Paradis make-up and glam and Donovan Carrillo bling on skaters.

Of course, that is for the men. I tend to be a contrarian for gender expectations, so with women, don't really care.

 

[Arigato]

I do get your point. I am not denying it. You make the point that in spite of a mediocre outfit you can still win. Our discussion is not an exclusive binary in that one of us must be completely incorrect. My inquiry is more fundamental to that of the premise in itself. Its a true dichotomy. Either it affects PCS or not at all, as in non-zero or zero. The argument can be had on magnitude or degree of effect after the premise is established as either true or false. If you agree that a rock n' roll outfit in a Sugar Plum Fairy program should be reflected in the PCS for violating the believability of the program, then we agree on the premise, which is the main contention. If not, then the discussion is over, and you agree to be a dissident, which is fine; those are everywhere. Again, the program by Kulik was performed almost 30 years ago where believability was not a specific criteria. I am not being hostile or argumentative, I am genuinely trying to reach a logical conclusion. If the specific criteria in 2025 says the believability is a criteria, and an inappropriate outfit can, even if in the most comically extreme hypothetical, have a real effect on the scoring, then the answer to the question of this thread is: yes.

Skate naked. That solves it.

 

[jenaj]

But the criteria was completely different then. They just got a single number on the general artistic impression. PCS wasn't even a thing. There was no "presentation" category which specifically criticizes believability of the program. So I wonder still if you think a rock n' roll costume for, say, a Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy program would negatively affect the believability and character of the program? Using specific ISU language in 2025?

The second mark was called Presentation.

 

[Mathematician]

The second mark was called Presentation.

It was a single general artistic mark. What I said is correct. I see there is no engagement on the actual question. Which is understandable. I can be pedantic. People here tend to be more casual and ambiguous. However the dilemma is there for any dissidents who would like to truly engage and actually make a concrete claim on the influence of outfits on the believability of the program.

 

[Arigato]

The second mark was called Presentation.

Something Philippe Candeloro relied heavily on in the 6.0 era. He was a showman. Hit play. It's timestamped to show what the marks were called.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Last time I checked, Yuzu and Shoma aren't women. They both spent thousands on a single costume, designed especially for them by Satomi Ito. Oh, I just realized - Ilia had her make one for him as well.

To suggest costumes increase PCS is an insult to someone's ability to skate. I don't care what their gender is. Also, just because the costume costs thousands, doesn't mean it's pleasing to look at. Ilia's costumes are dreadful.

Nancy Pelosi clap for them being able to spend that much.
Shoma’s costumes were usually the right balance of opulent/elegant without OTT. Hanyu had some good well edited costumes (Chopin, PW) but man sometimes they threw every piece of embroidery and frills on him… made Weir look understated… and went from being a costume to “costumey”.

Malinin could have better costumes but I actually liked his SP one from the past season (hated his FS).

I did love how incensed people were that Chen usually wore simpler outfits (I mean you can’t even call them costumes) - it’s almost like he wanted people to focus on the skating instead of the thousands of dollars…

I do think a nice costume or a revised for the better costume (Smart/Dieck’s Dune comes to mind - although they also skated wayyy better since revising the outfit) can enhance the interpretation and the emotional journey because the skater “looks the part”.

IIRC Virtue and Moir’s Moulin Rouge initially had him in the Duke role wearing gray and it was all kinds of wrong - they switched him to match her and put him in the protagonist role and the difference was night and day.