Question on PCS/Presentation scores

[Arigato]

But you really think Trusova was refined and elegant?

No.

 

[TallyT]

I don't recall her costumes being odd, though. They were all sort of standard issue pretty dresses, weren't they?

Ummm, pretty is not the word I (or probably she) would use...



As I recall (and google) she really only had one dress I personally would call pretty - the green-purple one in 2020-21. I am very much not a fan of Team Tut's costume designer(s) but Trusova's at least mostly did (imo) very much serve her programs and her style.

 

[Mathman]

But you really think Trusova was refined and elegant?

Sure she was, in a Daenerys Targaryen fire-breathing dragon sort of way. Or is this "bossgirl."?

Danielle Earl Photography

Alexandra Trusova performs her Game of Thrones freeskate at the 2019 Skate Canada International. • ⛸ Alexandra Trusova 🇷🇺 📍2019 Skate Canada International 🗺 Kelowna, BC ©️ Danielle Earl/Skate Canada...

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[TontoK]

Ummm, pretty is not the word I (or probably she) would use...

As I recall (and google) she really only had one dress I personally would call pretty - the green-purple one in 2020-21. I am very much not a fan of Team Tut's costume designer(s) but Trusova's at least mostly did (imo) very much serve her programs and her style.

Ok, I concede the point, but only because my memory and my Google search isn't as good as yours.

When I googled to see "what am I missing?" none of these came up. In retrospect, I am sadly mistaken.

 

[Skating91]

There's nothing in the PCS guidelines that mentions costumes, even implicitly.

I think it's implicit in the Presentation criteria. The skater uses their body to convey expression, the body is covered by a costume that matches/complements the music/theme of the performance.

Beyond the scores, skaters wear what makes them feel good on the ice. If a costume helps a skater skate better or perform better, that will help their PCS.

Why do they practice in training gear rather than their costume if the costume makes them feel better and perform better on the ice?

And why do they go to great effort and expense to create a costume matches or complements the music or theme of the program? Rather than simply wear any costume that looks good, they go to great trouble to select or design a costume that matches the program . If it's just about wearing something that makes them feel good on the ice, they could wear anything that feels good.

 

[Skating91]

Ummm, pretty is not the word I (or probably she) would use...

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As I recall (and google) she really only had one dress I personally would call pretty - the green-purple one in 2020-21. I am very much not a fan of Team Tut's costume designer(s) but Trusova's at least mostly did (imo) very much serve her programs and her style.

Maybe this is why Trusova was so good.

While other skaters are wasting all this time and mental energy on a costume that supposedly doesn't provide any benefit other than it makes the skater feel good, Trusova was busy focussing her energy on jumping 5 quads in a program.

 

[gkelly]

Why do they practice in training gear rather than their costume if the costume makes them feel better and perform better on the ice?

When they're practicing they're not necessarily performing. Depending what they're practicing, they may expect to fall a lot.
Skating costumes are often fragile, and expensive. They could easily be damaged during strenuous practice sessions.

And why do they go to great effort and expense to create a costume matches or complements the music or theme of the program? Rather than simply wear any costume that looks good, they go to great trouble to select or design a costume that matches the program .

Some do, some don't.

Many skating dresses are just pretty dresses that don't particularly relate to a specific theme.

 

[TallyT]

While other skaters are wasting all this time and mental energy on a costume that supposedly doesn't provide any benefit other than it makes the skater feel good, Trusova was busy focussing her energy on jumping 5 quads in a program.

Errrrr... I never said she (and the team) didn't focus quite a lot on the costumes, just that they weren't pretty. They weren't meant to be, but like all the Team Tut costumes, they were often over-elaborate and tried too hard, clearly there was a hell of a lot of thought and mental energy went into them. Went all awry in my opinion, but Trusova's-MMV.

 

[frompolandwithlove]

I feel like adding points for the costume would make the sport even more elitist than it already is. Let's not do that. Costumes are expensive and visual aspects are too subjective to be judged.
And with that being said, judges are human, many factors influence their opinions (probably mostly subconcoiusly), so it makes sense for skaters to try and look their best. But it also leads to very conservative design choices, especially with women - they often go for something safe and as non-controversial as possible. So we end up with a lot of typical ice-princess themed costumes - very pretty, very boring. I'm always happy to see female skaters (and men of course! But it's a different issue) trying to break the mold and do something different. It would be far more risky if judges actually could take away some points because they didn't like your costume.

 

[Arigato]

I used to say Yuzu should skate a program in his practice clothes. Why? With his speed and technique, his jumps and skating skills look even better when wearing tight-fitting clothing. Recently, I watched the only junior skater I have any interest in win Cranberry. I cringed when I saw his costume in the FS. Why? It relates to what I just said about Yuzu.

This costume defeats the purpose. Baggy pants and a long, loose shirt can make it more difficult for judges to see how well he executes jumps. This is the first time I have seen his coach do this to him. I think it's a mistake. It's about GOE. Do what you can to make it easy for the judges to see how well you execute. Period.

 

[Mathman]

This costume defeats the purpose. Baggy pants and a long, loose shirt can make it more difficult for judges to see how well he executes jumps.

I think that it all goes back to Herma Szabo and Sonia Henie. They introduced short skirts in the 1920s. The reason? Full and ankle length dresses obscured the judges' views of their blade work.

Henie had prettier legs, forcing 5-time world champ Szabo into retirement.

Speaking of costumes that feel comfortable, Michelle Kwan didn't like the feel of excess material around her neck and always wore costumes with very simple necklines. As for spending a ton of money, she once commissioned a fancy bespangle and sequined dress for thousands of dollars that looked like an American flag. But it was so heavy that she never skatied in it and as far as I know, wore it only once, at the grand opening of her family's rink.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Actually Yuzuru is a case in point for how presentation is hard to judge. If you go back on the archives right here, in early 2013-14 people were confidently declaring that there was no way he could win anything major in that outfit (and apparently quoting Phil Hersch as far as the Olympics go) right up to when he took the triple crown. In that outfit. So people did and do, even if they don't admit it to themselves, think that the whole package makes a difference... until it doesn't. (And now of course most of his costumes both competitive and pro are considered works of art and regularly shown in exhibitions/galleries or art photo displays.)

Men's costumes are a rather different thing anyway as so many of them especially in NA show (and pretty much outright said, helllloooooo N Chen) that they fear the 'effeminacy' tag and so they have something to prove by dressing 'manly man'. Can't wholly blame them, I guess, so maybe this discussion is maybe more relevant to the women, who don't have anything like that in mind. I don't think we'll ever know until a Worzel Gummidge lookalike in sackcloth britches - of either sex - is up there with the best at Worlds.

As far as the women and makeup go, I think the point stands that it is expected. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a woman who didn't make up and wore as daggy outfits as some NA men would be unconsciously marked down because as a woman who doesn't the former and does the latter, I can tell you, people (who I don't care about thankfully) do.

Did people really say a skater wouldn’t *win* because of a costume choice? Do you have a source?

Yes. Frankly, I like his best.



Vera Wang designed for Nathan and other U.S. skaters.

Vera Wang Reflects on 30 Years of Olympic Figure Skating Fashion

Vera Wang initially turned down dressing Nancy Kerrigan for the 1992 Winter Olympics in Albertville. Eventually, the world-renowned fashion designer said yes – a decision that mended decades-long heartbreak.

www.nbclosangeles.com

When Vera Wang created Evan and Chen’s outfits some people were like “oh thats it?” If you know anything about Vera Wang’s aesthetic, or fashion in general, it’s that expensive can still look understated- and doesn’t have to look like you need maximum sequins and gold embroidery to get the most bang for buck. And a high-level skater shouldn’t be compelled to wear the most opulent looking outfit to legitimize them being elite. And of course rivalry sways people’s judgment. Interesting though unsurprising that the people most critical of Chen’s outfits as being boring are the ones who love Hanyu’s the most. Groundbreaking.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Actually Yuzuru is a case in point for how presentation is hard to judge. If you go back on the archives right here, in early 2013-14 people were confidently declaring that there was no way he could win anything major in that outfit (and apparently quoting Phil Hersch as far as the Olympics go) right up to when he took the triple crown. In that outfit. So people did and do, even if they don't admit it to themselves, think that the whole package makes a difference... until it doesn't. (And now of course most of his costumes both competitive and pro are considered works of art and regularly shown in exhibitions/galleries or art photo displays.)

Men's costumes are a rather different thing anyway as so many of them especially in NA show (and pretty much outright said, helllloooooo N Chen) that they fear the 'effeminacy' tag and so they have something to prove by dressing 'manly man'. Can't wholly blame them, I guess, so maybe this discussion is maybe more relevant to the women, who don't have anything like that in mind. I don't think we'll ever know until a Worzel Gummidge lookalike in sackcloth britches - of either sex - is up there with the best at Worlds.

As far as the women and makeup go, I think the point stands that it is expected. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a woman who didn't make up and wore as daggy outfits as some NA men would be unconsciously marked down because as a woman who doesn't the former and does the latter, I can tell you, people (who I don't care about thankfully) do.

Did people really say a skater wouldn’t win because of a costume choice? Do you have a source?

Yes. Frankly, I like his best.



Vera Wang designed for Nathan and other U.S. skaters.

Vera Wang Reflects on 30 Years of Olympic Figure Skating Fashion

Vera Wang initially turned down dressing Nancy Kerrigan for the 1992 Winter Olympics in Albertville. Eventually, the world-renowned fashion designer said yes – a decision that mended decades-long heartbreak.

www.nbclosangeles.com

Yuzu won because he hit his elements consistently and well, had good skating ability, and because he was a favourite - he could have been wearing a black leotard instead of frills and still scored well.

When Vera Wang created Evan and Chen’s outfits some people were like “oh thats it?” And if they knew anything about Vera Wang’s aesthetic is that she edits down. Expensive can still look understated and doesn’t have to look like you need maximum sequins and embroidery to get the most bang for buck. And the point is a high-level skater shouldn’t be compelled to wear the most opulent looking outfit to legitimize them being the best. Interesting the people most critical of Chen’s outfits as being boring are the ones who love Hanyu’s the most.

There's nothing in the PCS guidelines that mentions costumes, even implicitly.

But judges are human. So a costume that makes the skater look good will have an unconscious effect on the judges' perceptions of how good they look. And a costume that helps judges understand the mood or story the skater is trying to convey will affect how well they can appreciate the skater's interpretation and performance, vs. a costume that clashes with what the skater's trying to do and confuses the judges. Etc.

And there are official guidelines for when costumes violate rules and require deductions.

Beyond the scores, skaters wear what makes them feel good on the ice. If a costume helps a skater skate better or perform better, that will help their PCS.

And if skaters want to communicate with fans, or each other, through the language of clothing, the traditions of the sport give plenty of scope for doing so.

If that were the case Chen would have lost the Olympics because his Rocketman FS shirt was not the most aesthetically pleasing or Ilia Kulik’s giraffe.

Skaters wear what they are comfortable with. Costume violations (or violation deductions in general) are rare and they are so negligible that a skater will do what they want and risk the deduction if that’s what they want … see: Adam’s backflip.

Most judges care about how the skater skates - if I were a judge I should be fired if I prevented a skater from winning because I didn’t like their outfit. No where is costume in PCS or GOE.

I agree that a costume can mess up a skater’s lines - but if a skater can hit a triple axel more comfortably and reliably in a baggy shirt than a form fitting one, I think they’ll go with what they feel best in.

 

[Arigato]

When Vera Wang created Evan and Chen’s outfits some people were like “oh thats it?” If you know anything about Vera Wang’s aesthetic, or fashion in general, it’s that expensive can still look understated- and doesn’t have to look like you need maximum sequins and gold embroidery to get the most bang for buck.

Rhinestone Snakes around the upper body looks "understated"? I think it looks over-the-top absurd.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Rhinestone Snakes around the upper body looks "understated"? I think it looks over-the-top absurd.

Rhinestone Snakes around the upper body looks "understated"? I think it looks over-the-top absurd.

The rest of the costume was entirely black. The contrasting snakes were just intended to represent the duality of good and evil (which is in line with Scheherazade being a good person and protagonist but still having to be manipulative and deceptive).

If he and/or the designer were Japanese you’d probably be calling it avant garde and a glittering work of art.

And in spite of you thinking it’s over the top he SOMEHOW won!

 

[TallyT]

Did people really say a skater wouldn’t win because of a costume choice? Do you have a source?

Your post to me showed up twice, sorry. The comment about Yuzuru's R&J2 is in the 2013-14 archives right here. May take a little searching, I ran across a reference to it in the 2014 Words thread when I was browsing that and went back to see if I could find the original claims, found them but didn't (obviously, I was just being inquisitive!) bookmark. I will say that anyone who saw Kulik and Lambiel win in their notoriously awful getups should have thought twice.

Yuzu won because he hit his elements consistently and well, had good skating ability, and because he was a favourite - he could have been wearing a black leotard instead of frills and still scored well.

Yuzuru is probably - like Yuna Kim, Zagitova, Lambiel and others blessed by the visual gods - harder to fit into the OP's question for better or worse because they are naturally extremely beautiful in face and figure and even in plain black UA draw eyes everywhere even if standing stock still on the edge of the rink (hell, he does his Seimei encores in his own merch T-shirts) So they are not who we might wonder (or not) is being scored even a little more generously because they look better done up to the nines because they look just as good... not.

When Vera Wang created Evan and Chen’s outfits some people were like “oh thats it?” And if they knew anything about Vera Wang’s aesthetic is that she edits down. Expensive can still look understated and doesn’t have to look like you need maximum sequins and embroidery to get the most bang for buck.

I think the point for many is that Vera Wang's 'bang' is with exactly one exception (Kerrigan's oh-so-nineties sequins) mostly in the label and reputation. No one can seriously claim that that mismatched black Chen wore in his Pyeongchang SP will be held up as understated and elegant (and I have this feeling it is the one people will remember in decades to come) even if it cost a packet.

Interesting the people most critical of Chen’s outfits as being boring are the ones who love Hanyu’s the most.

Nope, that's just ad hominem arguing. It is true that many people who love sparkles like Yuzu's and Shoma's will find Chen's style boooooring (better than someone like Messing, but that's not saying much) and vice versa but go back and read the archives again here and elsewhere, plenty of fans disliked - and mocked - both. Personally, I don't know what these people wanted but whatever it was, the top men didn't share the want (and still don't, look at Malinin and Shaidorov).

 

[TallyT]

If he and/or the designer were Japanese you’d probably be calling it avant garde and a glittering work of art.

If they were French. Get your couture countries right

And in spite of you thinking it’s over the top he SOMEHOW won!

I don't think the OP or most of the folk here are saying that skaters won or lost based on costumes and makeup, that's absurd. What they might be wondering is if the judges lean just a little softer towards skaters who please their eyes or look more appealing in a program. I don't think so for the men (maybe for the women but hey, Kwan and Asada!) but like I said, until we have someone who is brilliant but really brings absolutely no aesthetic appeal... we will never know. The difference, if there is one, is apparently slight.

 

[Arigato]

If he and/or the designer were Japanese you’d probably be calling it avant garde and a glittering work of art.

Over-the-top rubbish is still rubbish, no matter what country the designer is from.

 

[Mathman]

Ummm, pretty is not the word I (or probably she [Trusova, post #42]) would use...

Eye of the beholder, I guess. The tall yellow and black leggy bumblebee look is cool!

As for skaters that are physically attractive, they all are. They're young, fit, trained to move gracefully. (OK, not everyone is Angelika Krylova or Adam Siao Him Fa... )

Rhinestone Snakes around the upper body looks "understated"? I think it looks over-the-top absurd,

Here;s Evan (another handsome devil) at 2008 Skate America, proving that contrary to popular belief, it is possible to look dissolved in a tuxedo. Later in the season he ditched this costume for a more conventional tuxedo look -- and presumably burned this one.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...kate_America_Men_Lysacek04.jpg?20190415110723[/I]

 

[TallyT]

Here;s Evan (another handsome devil) at 2008 Skate America, proving that contrary to popular belief, it is possible to look dissolved in a tuxedo. Later in the season he ditched this costume for a more conventional tuxedo look -- and presumably burned this one.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...kate_America_Men_Lysacek04.jpg?20190415110723[/I]

The Seventies called and would like their bomber jacket pattern back... please tell me this isn't another example of Vera Wang's 'understated'!