Question on PCS/Presentation scores

[Arigato]

Nancy Pelosi clap for them being able to spend that much.

Shoma’s costumes were usually the right balance of opulent/elegant without OTT.

Yes. Frankly, I like his best.

I did love how incensed people were that Chen usually wore simpler outfits (I mean you can’t even call them costumes) - it’s almost like he wanted people to focus on the skating instead of the thousands of dollars…

Vera Wang designed for Nathan and other U.S. skaters.

Vera Wang Reflects on 30 Years of Olympic Figure Skating Fashion

Vera Wang initially turned down dressing Nancy Kerrigan for the 1992 Winter Olympics in Albertville. Eventually, the world-renowned fashion designer said yes – a decision that mended decades-long heartbreak.

www.nbclosangeles.com

 

[TallyT]

Hanyu had some good well edited costumes (Chopin, PW) but man sometimes they threw every piece of embroidery and frills on him… made Weir look understated… and went from being a costume to “costumey”.

Actually Yuzuru is a case in point for how presentation is hard to judge. If you go back on the archives right here, in early 2013-14 people were confidently declaring that there was no way he could win anything major in that outfit (and apparently quoting Phil Hersch as far as the Olympics go) right up to when he took the triple crown. In that outfit. So people did and do, even if they don't admit it to themselves, think that the whole package makes a difference... until it doesn't. (And now of course most of his costumes both competitive and pro are considered works of art and regularly shown in exhibitions/galleries or art photo displays.)

Men's costumes are a rather different thing anyway as so many of them especially in NA show (and pretty much outright said, helllloooooo N Chen) that they fear the 'effeminacy' tag and so they have something to prove by dressing 'manly man'. Can't wholly blame them, I guess, so maybe this discussion is maybe more relevant to the women, who don't have anything like that in mind. I don't think we'll ever know until a Worzel Gummidge lookalike in sackcloth britches - of either sex - is up there with the best at Worlds.

As far as the women and makeup go, I think the point stands that it is expected. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a woman who didn't make up and wore as daggy outfits as some NA men would be unconsciously marked down because as a woman who doesn't the former and does the latter, I can tell you, people (who I don't care about thankfully) do.

 

[TallyT]

Vera Wang designed for Nathan and other U.S. skaters.

So it wasn't an austere disdain for 'thousands of dollars'. It was as much an aesthetic choice and just as lavish as anyone's. I'm more critical of the 'fish Greatuncle's old duds out of the wash' school of menswear myself.

 

[gkelly]

There's nothing in the PCS guidelines that mentions costumes, even implicitly.

But judges are human. So a costume that makes the skater look good will have an unconscious effect on the judges' perceptions of how good they look. And a costume that helps judges understand the mood or story the skater is trying to convey will affect how well they can appreciate the skater's interpretation and performance, vs. a costume that clashes with what the skater's trying to do and confuses the judges. Etc.

And there are official guidelines for when costumes violate rules and require deductions.

Beyond the scores, skaters wear what makes them feel good on the ice. If a costume helps a skater skate better or perform better, that will help their PCS.

And if skaters want to communicate with fans, or each other, through the language of clothing, the traditions of the sport give plenty of scope for doing so.

 

[Magill]

I'm a bit torn on this one. On one hand, I would often say I could not care less what they were wearing and I'm absolutely positive it should not affect scoring at all, especially that - just like many other things in this sport and in life - what they wear depend a lot on their financial capabilities and when they are young, also on the tastes of those around them. And well, fashion tastes are personal and should not get into scoring anyway.
OTOH, I know people statistically tend to score slightly higher those they find attractive, or whom they like, and this is scientifically proven in research so not to be debated, a very human kind of bias. What we wear does affect how other people judge us. And of course, judges are humans. OTOH, the more professional you get as a a judge, the more you should be able - and trained - to get over such a bias and stay objective, but who knows how it really works in any particular case... although I would think reputation, fed politicking and such are much stronger interference factors here than costumes, frankly speaking.
On yet another aspect, I agree that a costume is a part of the performance itself, and in some cases it might fit the music and character very well or very ill. I mean, it does not matter when you're skating to " Je suis malade" or some uncharacteristic pop, but with some other choices it could actually make a difference and affect the overall impression of "getting into character" better or worse, hard to deny it. I always felt Yuzuru's costume for Ballade No 1 made him look way more Chopin-esque than more casual choices of some other skaters when skating Chopin. I loved his costume. It was perfect for the music, styled for the times. Should it be therefore extra rewarded as such as a part of performance and presentation? Luckily, Yuzuru's skating was so great it would never matter anyway... His Chopin skated in black UA at practices was no less impressive and should not be scored any lower, so... I guess that's the answer.

 

[gkelly]

Judges are also aware that sometimes skaters compete not wearing their intended costume. Maybe it wasn't ready early in the season. Maybe it was damaged. Maybe it was lost during travel. For juniors, maybe they outgrew it.

So they have to be able to put aside the clothing and just judge the skating. At least consciously.

But subconsciously, a distracting costume could have an effect.

Which also includes costumes that clearly don't fit well or that are too busy to show off the skater's body line.

 

[Mathman]

... why do skaters especially females go to such great expense spending thousands on a single costume, and hours preparing hair and make-up...

People do like to look their pitiful best when they appear in public.

Proctor and Gamble spends 140 billion dollars per year advertising products like Crest toothpaste to make your teeth look whiter and Oil of Olay to give your skin a youthful glow.

 

[JustMolly]

Do costumes/make-up/hair contribute to PCS or Presentation scores...and if not, then why do skaters especially females go to such great expense spending thousands on a single costume, and hours preparing hair and make-up for an event if it has no influence on PCS?

For the record, I believe costume/make-up/hair contributes to PCS, is almost always reflected in the score, and a mistake has been made if it hasn't affected the score. However, I could be mistaken (along with many skaters).

I am interested to read your thoughts!

I can't answer your first question about if the actual physical presentation contributes to the score, but as for why skaters go to such a great expense/effort to look a certain way, I can say I personally feel more confident when I step out onto the ice and I know I am presenting a fully realized product. I think the costume, the hair, the makeup - those are all off ice things I can put time and energy into before I get to the rink, that allow me to feel like I am making the most of all my practice time, and my competition fees. I am giving it my all, and I want that to be physically apparent to the judges before my music starts.

 

[TontoK]

And they are also playing to their public, aren't they? (Which is why some of the women wear makeup to competition practice, they are on display and it's part of the display.) It's less accepted these days to 'rate' the skaters on their beauty but it's still commented on when they are (hellloooo, Madison Chock) and costumes are an endless source of fascination and therefore publicity. Remember the wild excitement of audiences and social media any time Yuzuru - as mentioned above, his costumes and Shoma's, then and now cost a heap and it shows - revealed a new one, even at ice shows. Look at how people discuss and love the Korean girl's exquisite dresses, those of Lisa McKinnon and Satomi Ito.

This is the correct answer, IMO. I generally do not care about costumes at all, so long as they are appropriate and not ridiculous. I mean, I wouldn't appreciate a program skated in ass-less chaps no matter how elegant it was otherwise. I agree with the other sentiments expressed that people generally like to look their best in public, and I imagine triple that if you're going to be immortalized on YouTube for a generation. If I were going to the Olympics, there would not be a sequin to be found on me, but I'd certainly make a rigorous effort to look my best.

I freely admit to being an old-school sexist to some degree. I want the women to be feminine, elegant, and refined. I just do, and I realize there are many different versions of that description.

But elegant and refined doesn't necessarily ostentatious and expensive. Peggy Fleming won the Olympics in a fairly simple dress her mother made, and she couldn't have been more lovely if she were dripping in sparkles from head to toe.

 

[TontoK]

I can't answer your first question about if the actual physical presentation contributes to the score, but as for why skaters go to such a great expense/effort to look a certain way, I can say I personally feel more confident when I step out onto the ice and I know I am presenting a fully realized product. I think the costume, the hair, the makeup - those are all off ice things I can put time and energy into before I get to the rink, that allow me to feel like I am making the most of all my practice time, and my competition fees. I am giving it my all, and I want that to be physically apparent to the judges before my music starts.

This is an excellent contribution to the thread.

 

[Arigato]

So it wasn't an austere disdain for 'thousands of dollars'. It was as much an aesthetic choice and just as lavish as anyone's.

Correct. As a matter of fact, it was Terry Gannon of NBC Sports who at the 2018 OLYG said on air, after Nathan bombed his SP, that
he "had everything going for him - inspired by LeBron James, clothing by Vera Wang." I shouted at the TV "What the **** does any of that rubbish have to do with figure skating!?" Honestly, I'd never heard such pretentious rhetoric said at a sporting event. I wondered who had lost their mind and put those words in Gannon's mouth. And for how much money.

 

[Mathman]

@TontoK Elegant and refined? Here's our guy A;exei Urmanov. He had Swan Lake down, but alas, it wasn't enough to win 1995 Worlds.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/9b0aa1dcbc28ddebe753eedb88877218/tumblr_mmuk2whQep1r5ashao1_1280.jpg

 

[Magill]

So it wasn't an austere disdain for 'thousands of dollars'. It was as much an aesthetic choice and just as lavish as anyone's.

But of course...

Correct. As a matter of fact, it was Terry Gannon of NBC Sports who at the 2018 OLYG said on air, after Nathan bombed his SP, that
he "had everything going for him - inspired by LeBron James, clothing by Vera Wang." I shouted at the TV "What the **** does any of that rubbish have to do with figure skating!?" Honestly, I'd never heard such pretentious rhetoric said at a sporting event. I wondered who had lost their mind and put those words in Gannon's mouth. And for how much money.

Yes. It made you wonder how people can spin both narrations : "the guy's so cool, he does not care about costumes at all" and "the guy's so cool, Vera Wang designed for him" at the same time about the same guy, and do not see the contradiction. But his infamous bombing in much-talked-about Vera Wang sort of proved that in the end of the day it is skating that matters and not costumes and designers, or the lack thereof.

 

[Mathman]

But of course...

"the guy's so cool, he does not care about costumes at all" and "the guy's so cool, Vera Wang designed for him"

If you're cool, you're cool. It doesn't matter what you have on or who designed it.

 

[TontoK]

@TontoK Elegant and refined? Here's our guy A;exei Urmanov. He had Swan Lake down, but alas, it wasn't enough to win 1995 Worlds.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/9b0aa1dcbc28ddebe753eedb88877218/tumblr_mmuk2whQep1r5ashao1_1280.jpg

Urmanov frequently fit into my "ridiculous" exemption for caring about costumes.

This Swan Lake doozy was one of those times.

 

[TallyT]

If you're cool, you're cool. It doesn't matter what you have on or who designed it.

And if you're not, you can buy spin and pr to talk and talk and talk people into thinking they see it

I freely admit to being an old-school sexist to some degree. I want the women to be feminine, elegant, and refined. I just do, and I realize there are many different versions of that description.

I like the fact that the women have more space to be themselves, 'elegant and refined' doesn't suit everyone especially in this day and age with the tough athletic requirements. Isabeau had it down for her Moon River look (probably my very favourite last year) and Eunsoo Lim was an exemplar but it wouldn't suit Alysa who's more bright and bubbly, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva who went for sultry, or girlboss Trusova (the biggest star of the recent women, OGM or not).

 

[TallyT]

Urmanov frequently fit into my "ridiculous" exemption for caring about costumes.

This Swan Lake doozy was one of those times.

It will be a sad day and a further decline in the sport when the ridiculous disappears completely, I hope it never does.

(What I like about Urmanov and the other overpeacocked is their sublime confidence that they look wonderful, like 18th century aristos serenely dripping with lace and gemstones and proving modern 'less is more' is purely cultural conditioning. Good stuff.)

 

[TontoK]

I like the fact that the women have more space to be themselves, 'elegant and refined' doesn't suit everyone especially in this day and age with the tough athletic requirements. Isabeau had it down for her Moon River look (probably my very favourite last year) and Eunsoo Lim was an exemplar but it wouldn't suit Alysa who's more bright and bubbly, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva who went for sultry, or girlboss Trusova (the biggest star of the recent women, OGM or not).

While I won't apologize for liking what I like, I will say that each of the women you've mentioned fit my definition of elegant and refined in one way or another, I like each of them for the "flavors of femininity" they bring to the ice.

Edit: This discussion was about costuming, correct? I don't remember any of these ladies wearing really ugly costumes. Am I misremembering something?

 

[TallyT]

While I won't apologize for liking what I like, I will say that each of the women you've mentioned fit my definition of elegant and refined in one way or another, I like each of them for the "flavors of femininity" they bring to the ice.

Oh no need to apologise! We all like what we like, and we all have different ideas of what words like 'refined' means. (But you really think Trusova was refined and elegant? - that's not a dig at her, I really don't think she had any interest in being so.)

 

[TontoK]

Oh no need to apologise! We all like what we like, and we all have different ideas of what words like 'refined' means. (But you really think Trusova was refined and elegant? - that's not a dig at her, I really don't think she had any interest in being so.)

I don't recall her costumes being odd, though. They were all sort of standard issue pretty dresses, weren't they?