Figure skating is dying, and judges can't prop it up

[Icey]

I believe that I may be the hoariest person on Golden Skate, now that GrGranny and Joesitz have retired from active posting.

well, just as long as you aren't the whoriest. I might could give you a run for your money, but unless it lots of money, this "kid" ain't gonna admit he is hoarier than you.

 

[Robeye]

Yeah, take it off life support and let it, at least, die with a semblance of dignity. Then let it rise form the ashes in a new form, all fresh and new and wonderful.

I think we need to be careful what we wish for. What with all the zombies and vampires we see in movies and television, perhaps we need to remind ourselves that, sometimes, when things die, they stay dead.

 

[bigsisjiejie]

So if we want falls to be similarly costly at the highest levels, where the most people are watching and the most people care strongly, then the system needs to be redesigned to make the penalties larger at levels where the overall scores are highest.

Exactly. Why would it be so difficult in competitions--and particularly international competitions--to change the fall penalty?
-1 at intermediate or lower levels. No change.
-2 at novice competitions
-3 at junior competitions
-4 at senior competitions
This would be easily implementable and more acceptable to the vast majority of audience both casual and die-hard skating fans. Mistakes need commensurate penalties. Junior and particularly senior skaters need to work harder to stand up. If that means sticking with skills they can actually do without falling, so be it.
However, no system overhaul would be complete without addressing the problems with GOE and also the entire PCS/component concept.

 

[FSGMT]

Exactly. Why would it be so difficult in competitions--and particularly international competitions--to change the fall penalty?
-1 at intermediate or lower levels. No change.
-2 at novice competitions
-3 at junior competitions
-4 at senior competitions
This would be easily implementable and more acceptable to the vast majority of audience both casual and die-hard skating fans. Mistakes need commensurate penalties. Junior and particularly senior skaters need to work harder to stand up. If that means sticking with skills they can actually do without falling, so be it.
However, no system overhaul would be complete without addressing the problems with GOE and also the entire PCS/component concept.

I think that this would result in all the skaters attempting easy programs (using the 2011 Kostner strategy), no more big tricks, less risk and excitement... Is this really what we want?

 

[TontoK]

I think the concept of risk/reward is a good one... but programs are not being scored that way.

There should be a severe penalty for non-completion of elements that are attempted, and I don't think "fully rotated, but a fall on the landing" should qualify as successful completion of the element.

Likewise, I don't think anything less than perfection should merit +3 GOE.

 

[mskater93]

Likewise, I don't think anything less than perfection should merit +3 GOE.

The problem is, who's going to define "perfection" in this case?

 

[Kitt]

The problem is, who's going to define "perfection" in this case?

Not falling would be a good start.

 

[TontoK]

The problem is, who's going to define "perfection" in this case?

Have you ever watched a televised diving competition? The diver performs, the commentators will say, "It was a good dive. Not great. A little heavy on the entry, but the takeoff was good. It was pretty in the air. Should score 7 to 7.5." And the scores will come up, and they will be in the range of 7 to 7.5.

Different sport, I know, but the point is that a knowledgeable person can look at one element and make an accurate assessment of what the score for that element should be, based on its deviation from perfection.

I cannot believe that experienced and trained figure skating judges, who have served for years before they reach a level of judging a WC or Olympics, cannot do the same thing. "Good strong takeoff from a proper edge. Excellent height to the jump and fully rotated. Rotation in the air slightly crooked. A bit wobbly on the landing and average run-out. Base value."

Instead it seems we get, "He completed a quad without falling on his backside. GOE +3"

 

[Skater Boy]

Skating like Gymnastics and to the point various snowboarding events are hard to understand for the average person. Count the revolutions is not enough as certain tricks are worth more. Understanding spins, edging, positions are all hard to comprehend. We will only stop the whining when our favourite or the one we think deserved to win wins. And us all agreeing on that is likely to happens well sky fly and certain posters becoming buds - it is not likely to happen. Hopefully the attitudes on this board are not pervading outside otherwise skating is going to be dead as dead can be. It is hard to understand the scoring system to the ave person let alone us. maybe celarly labelling what are skating skills what is choreography etc would help. But as we cannot agree and the commenttor cannot agree how can we expect the average non skating fan understand.
I do fear if we are powerful enough on this board that our whining may kill skating and that would be a shame. A real shame...

 

[evangeline]

I do fear if we are powerful enough on this board that our whining may kill skating and that would be a shame. A real shame...

Do you know what would also kill skating? Having normal discussions about sport--many of which stem from genuine interest and concern for the sport--continually dismissed as "whining."

Soccer/football is the most popular sport in the world, and its immense popularity has not suffered from the reams of passionate (and even angry and irrational) discussion and debate associated with the sport (more than figure skating will ever know), even if the topics are as divisive as diving, match-fixing or bad refereeing.

In fact, the way we truly know a sport is dead is when no fans even bother to discuss or debate the results.

 

[gkelly]

I cannot believe that experienced and trained figure skating judges, who have served for years before they reach a level of judging a WC or Olympics, cannot do the same thing.

Well, they've only been grading elements on a scale of -3 to +3 for ten years at most. Which should be enough to establish their standards. But the official guidelines have changed at least once during that time, and I think there have been some unofficial recalibrations as well -- we've certainly seen more +3s in the last 3-4 years than in the previous 6.

Instead it seems we get, "He completed a quad without falling on his backside. GOE +3"

As mentioned, there have been relatively few +3s given over the years, although more of them recently.

The current guidelines for +3 are 6 bullet points. Can you point to any quads that have ever received +3 GOE without clearly meeting at least a few of those positive criteria beyond "didn't fall on his backside," even if we can't identify as many as six?

I do fear if we are powerful enough on this board that our whining may kill skating and that would be a shame. A real shame...

Yeah, I also wish the discussions -- including discussions of where we disagree with the rules or a given judging panel's application of the rules -- would take a more positive, enthusiastic tone.

Maybe whining and manufactured outrage are fun. Maybe it's all done with a smile that doesn't come across online. I just wish more of the enjoyment would come through.

 

[Skater Boy]

I am wondering in part, if the scoring system great if it works to your favour or your favorite skater. As a "judge" could see depending on what scoring system you use how you could get different results.

 

[Mathman]

Maybe whining and manufactured outrage are fun.

Quite the opposite, IMHO. It is enervating and depressing.

When we attend a sporting event, or watch on TV or the Internet, we should leave the arena talking about the performances of the athletes. If instead, time after time, we exit the arena talking about the refereeing, that sport is in trouble.

 

[R.D.]

In the short run, things seem fine...but if TPTB don't wake up soon - skating may find itself in an irrecoverable tailspin.

There will be another SLC-level scandal at the Olympics and that will pretty much do it right there. (Just imagine if Chan is gifted the title again after multiple falls in Sochi)

 

[Krislite]

In the short run, things seem fine...but if TPTB don't wake up soon - skating may find itself in an irrecoverable tailspin.

There will be another SLC-level scandal at the Olympics and that will pretty much do it right there. (Just imagine if Chan is gifted the title again after multiple falls in Sochi)

You'd think they'd be more careful in Sochi, no? It's relatively easy to adjust by being stricter on the PCS and GOE with sloppy performances, as they should be anyways.

 

[pangtongfan]

I predict the whole Worlds fiasco will have the judges being very very careful how they mark Chan next season, and especialy at the Games. I dont think he will win the gold. He will most likely win the bronze or 4th place, and if he skates poorly could even be lower than that. The scandal has rung so loud that I am sure the IOC has even heard about it and will give some harsh warning to the ISU to watch themselves and how figure skating goes down at the Games after already having the SLC and to lesser degree Nagano ice dance bloc judging scandals overshadow the whole Olympics. Chan will find himself watched like a hawk by all of judges, fans, experts, and IOC members alike at next years Games.

 

[R.D.]

^ Let's hope so. Not just for the Olympics, but beyond as well. The entire system needs a serious re-evaluation and the ISU honchos know it.

 

[TryMeLater]

I don't think that figure skating is dying.
It's just isn't popular as before.
I started following figure skating after the winter Olympic games in 2006 were shown for the first (and last) time on the main Israeli channel (like CBS).
I watched the Ladies event as it was hyped between Slutskaya and Cohen (with Arakawa winning of course),
the Pairs with Zhang (?) falling, and of course Ice Dance as many in Israel thought Chait/Sakhnovsky will take the bronze.
While as a whole the games were a failure in Israel, and not shown on the main Israeli channel again (only on Eurosport with british/russian commentary),
I do feel a lot of new people like me found a new interest in this sport.
To me IJS was really easy to understand watching the Figure skating for the first time.
Two scores are given-one for the technical side, and one for the performance side.
The main problem of IJS for me is that it doesn't push the technical limit.
You can get a higher score doing a separate 3Lz and 3Toe than doing a 3Lz-3T combo because of GOE.

 

[Mathman]

Welcome, TryMeLater. Thanks for joining us. Post often, post long!

 

[Olympia]

Welcome, TryMeLater. It's interestng to hear from someone in a country that doesn't have a lot of skating coverage or a long history of either skaters or fans. It's good that you have access to Eurosport.