Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)

[CarneAsada]

I will use Caro's program-ending fall in the LP to illustrate some thoughts. Now, I recognize that this is a strong and quality program. That is not the issue. But as it applies to the thread topic, consider this: why, do you suppose, did Lori/Caro choose to put that jump where they did? As most of us should be able to see, it was not merely to gain a second-half jump bonus. In my view, it's clear that the jump placement was deliberately designed to create an emphatic, thrilling emotional punctuation, to bring the house down, as it were. In short, they were planning for a PCS boost from this technical element. If Caro had hit that jump, I do not doubt that it would have had the desired effect.

But having recognized this, what should, logically, be the effect of a fall on that aesthetically critical jump? Yes, I would argue that it should negatively impact PCS, just as its clean execution would have positively affected it. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

I have to disagree. Carolina's splat on the 3Sal went perfectly with the music. Though I think she should have improvised and just played dead instead of clambering back to her feet only to finish behind the music.

 

[Skater Boy]

I'm still coming to grips with why people are up in arms over Chan losing the FS to Ten due to major errors, when Kostner was placed ahead in the SP over clean skates by Murakami and Osmond and a clean Li in the FS, in spite of falls/pop, and the Germans placed ahead in the FS over 2 virtually-clean Canadian teams in spite of multiple major errors.

Clearly Chan is a better skater with a better program than Ten and got good (but not his best) PCS which rightfully wasn't not enough to win the FS (but enough overall). Clearly Kostner is a better skater than Murakami/Osmond/Li and got higher PCS which was still enough to lead in the SP and beat Li in the FS. Clearly the Germans are a better pair than D/R and MT/M, and their PCS allowed them to overtake the Canadians overall.

So (general Chan hating aside) why are people more outraged at a PCS-superior unclean skater rightfully losing the FS to a clean skater, than a PCS-superior Kostner/Germans with errors winning the SP/FS over clean skaters? Seems like a similar scenario, so why the double standard?

Bravo. I don't care if you are Canadian or not this was a well thought out position. I concur. I wish Chan and all the men skated better but they didn't. chan overall was the best. years ago there was skater Jennifer Robinson and she skated a clean 7 triple program but she was way down in like 14th. And it was because she didn't have the quality (she was painfully slow and double footed her lutz more times than Susan Lucci has lost the Emmy.

This has been my point all along. Besides the posters here are supposed to be more educated about skating ; sometimes I wonder though. And the more whining the more kiling we do.

 

[Skater Boy]

Sorry to continue = quality is important as quantity. If we say Chan didn't deserve Gold then years ago Kostner didn't deserve many of her medals. so many times itis the best of the worst who wins or the most competitive but not the best skater. Think. Should we say 2010 Evan should get silver at the Olympics he neither is the best technicanor sytlisht/pcs. He isn't even a personality like Witt. blah skating got gold. it was the best of the worst.likewise what happened in London 2013.

 

[Robeye]

I have to disagree. Carolina's splat on the 3Sal went perfectly with the music. Though I think she should have improvised and just played dead instead of clambering back to her feet only to finish behind the music.

While it would have been amusing to see Carolina try a cheeky Cohenesque pose on ice, it would have required an unbelievable self-possession (not to mention a lack of pain-receptors on her backside, sort of like the character "Kick ***" in the movie and comics of the same name ), because that splat looked like it hurt, and it's hard to recover immediately from a physical shock like that.

Nevertheless, the fact that fall was impeccably on beat is not quite the same thing as saying that the artistic effect of the fall was appropriate. I don't think that the impression that Team Caro was aiming for was "pratfall", like some kind of comedy send-up of the slow, sensual running toward each other on the beach, only to stumble and knock heads at the final moment. That was the risk that the jump entailed, and I am quite certain that both Carolina and Lori were aware of that.

 

[Olympia]

Duhamel and Radford should have won the silver medal. Savchenko and Solkowy's performance, like Bolero itself -- I though it would never end.

Math, you and I may be the only people in the world that find Ravel's Bolero more dreary than torrid. Until that chord change way, way, waaaay at the end, it has almost no interest for me as a melody. I put up with it when Torvill and Dean transformed its lead into gold, but even Michelle couldn't give it zing for me. If I want really incendiary music, I look to the Liebestod from Tristan and Isolde, which has an orchestral version, or the balcony scene from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet. There's plenty other Ravel that I prefer to Bolero.

I just hope Ingo Steuer finds something more inspiring for S/S for next year.

I can't weigh in on the men's final, because I still haven't seen anyone. I fear I lost heart when Daisuke had such a bad skate and just didn't hunt around for everyone's YouTube videos.

 

[zschultz1986]

Sorry to continue = quality is important as quantity. If we say Chan didn't deserve Gold then years ago Kostner didn't deserve many of her medals. so many times itis the best of the worst who wins or the most competitive but not the best skater. Think. Should we say 2010 Evan should get silver at the Olympics he neither is the best technicanor sytlisht/pcs. He isn't even a personality like Witt. blah skating got gold. it was the best of the worst.likewise what happened in London 2013.

Wrong. Sure, there is difference in quality betwen Chan and Ten's skating, but not enough to make up for the fact that Ten did two very enjoyable, well executed, programs, while Chan did one good Short and then bombed the long. Saying the best of the worst implies that no one skated well. Wrong. Ten skated extremely well, stayed on his feet, and performed the hell out of two programs. Chan wasn't even the best of the worst, anyway.

While it would have been amusing to see Carolina try a cheeky Cohenesque pose on ice, it would have required an unbelievable self-possession (not to mention a lack of pain-receptors on her backside, sort of like the character "Kick ***" in the movie and comics of the same name ), because that splat looked like it hurt, and it's hard to recover immediately from a physical shock like that.

Nevertheless, the fact that fall was impeccably on beat is not quite the same thing as saying that the artistic effect of the fall was appropriate. I don't think that the impression that Team Caro was aiming for was "pratfall", like some kind of comedy send-up of the slow, sensual running toward each other on the beach, only to stumble and knock heads at the final moment. That was the risk that the jump entailed, and I am quite certain that both Carolina and Lori were aware of that.

Unintended artistic impression? Sure. But is was one hell of an unintended artistic impression. Seriously, she went boom RIGHT on beat. Had she played dead. I would have given her all the 6.0s in the world for amazing improvisation.

 

[PftJump]

Chan didn't deserve to get more than 5 points in P/E component point.
Just well-estimated P/E Point can correct this mess.

 

[Robeye]

Unintended artistic impression? Sure. But is was one hell of an unintended artistic impression. Seriously, she went boom RIGHT on beat. Had she played dead. I would have given her all the 6.0s in the world for amazing improvisation.

OK, I'll agree that it was one hell of an unintended artistic impression and leave it at that.

 

[kittyhawk]

Math, you and I may be the only people in the world that find Ravel's Bolero more dreary than torrid. Until that chord change way, way, waaaay at the end, it has almost no interest for me as a melody. I put up with it when Torvill and Dean transformed its lead into gold, but even Michelle couldn't give it zing for me.

Oh, I also find Bolero tedious. I think of kids on a long car trip asking 'Are we there yet?'. Only Torvill and Dean's program made it tolerable to listen to.

 

[bigsisjiejie]

Math, you and I may be the only people in the world that find Ravel's Bolero more dreary than torrid.

No, you're not the only ones. I have always Loathed. This. Music. Once T&D performed it (best ever done, IMO), it should have been retired as a skating piece forever.

As to the subject of the thread, I certainly don't have a double-standard. I thought Chan stunk up the joint and didn't deserve the gold. I thought Carolina didn't deserve the silver...maybe shouldn't have even been on the podium. And I definitely wouldn't have put a flawed and uninspiring S/S in for silver and barely for bronze over MTM. All beneficiaries of overscoring and particularly on PCS. Lots of tech panels and judges to share in the sinning in this Worlds.

 

[sky_fly20]

simple answer, Chan won even with a messy FS and got the highest PCS
and doesn't help that he won on home ice with heavy inflated scores he didn't deserve

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

This conversation was not meant to defend Chan's scores. I totally agree that he was overscored (although Ten arguably was overscored in PCS too). The conversation was about why other skaters who have a PCS advantage over the field are forgiven for errors, but people seem to get only hung up on Chan. I'm saying that Kostner (particularly in the SP) and the Germans (particularly in the LP) were overscored on their PCS, in spite of major errors. I agree that it wasn't as disruptive in Kostner's case (although there's something to be said about the silver medalist having only the 4th and 6th best TES scores over the competition, and being gifted -2's for a fall at that)... but the errors were certainly disruptive in the case of the Germans (although it's like that 3A throw at the end negated how bad they were skating - compared to what they're capable of, that is). And yet the Germans still received better PCS than previous programs of theirs that were skated better and were better choreographed.

It's all part of a bigger question that skaters that are superior in PCS on the competition still get good results with errors. My point is that all "top" skaters, not just Chan, need to be made more accountable for major errors... Justifying Kostner's or the Germans' marks after errors by saying they have better SS, etc. is being hypocritical when you bash an erring Chan who has a similar PCS advantage over the field, even when the field does clean skates. It's absolute bs that PCS-inferior skaters need to skate with harder technical content and cleanly at that to even have a shot at besting a top skater with errors, but it's not like Chan is the only one to have benefited from that.

I still can't believe people defend Kostner's 2nd place in the SP after a blatant fall on one of the 3 jumping passes. I expected Kostner's PCS to make up for it, but not so much as to put her in 2nd. Disruptive or not, it would be like if V/M or D/W fell in their short dance, and still placed 2nd in the segment because their overall skating is superior to everyone else.

 

[evangeline]

I still can't believe people defend Kostner's 2nd place in the SP after a blatant fall on one of the 3 jumping passes. I expected Kostner's PCS to make up for it, but not so much as to put her in 2nd. Disruptive or not, it would be like if V/M or D/W fell in their short dance, and still placed 2nd in the segment because their overall skating is superior to everyone else.

Uhh....have you been watching ice dance at all?

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1112/SEG007.HTM

http://youtu.be/O0dvv2_JBgM

Skip to the 1:00 mark for the fall. Placed 2nd on the SD. Big disruptive fall. 8s and 9s in PCS across the board.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Oh, well there you go! Not cool, judges. I'm Canadian and I would never defend V/M placing 2nd after that fall, no matter how much better skaters they are than the rest of the field, nor would I try to justify it by saying "oh, but they skated the rest of the program brilliantly and didn't let it be disruptive". Seriously, how can anyone take skating seriously when that happens? Under 6.0, a fall in the SP or OD would (and should) immediately put you out of podium position.

 

[bigsisjiejie]

Disruptive or not, it would be like if V/M or D/W fell in their short dance, and still placed 2nd in the segment because their overall skating is superior to everyone else.

Not exactly good logic there. The gap between V/M and D/W skills and quality of dance vs The Rest of the Pack, is much larger than that of Kostner vs other top ladies, or Chan vs other top men. Or S/S vs the Pairs Posse chasing them. So they might have a fall cushion--maybe one fall or major mistake. I think judges are gentler on V/M's mistakes though, than they are on a D/W mistake or that of other dance teams. Chan in particular though, seems to have an almost infinite "fall and major mistake quota"--highly disruptive to PCS components--that the judges refuse to properly lower his marks for.

 

[Mathman]

Double Standard

The question being raised is not about the judging, but about fan's reaction, right? Why do fans and spectators get mad when Patrick Chan wins with a bad free skate?

If this is the question, I think the answer is simple. Chan won. We do not want our world champion to back into the title as the result of idiosyncrasies of the scoring system.

Whether someone got third when they deserved second is not so much in your face.

 

[Mathman]

I will use Caro's program-ending fall in the LP to illustrate some thoughts. Now, I recognize that this is a strong and quality program. That is not the issue. But as it applies to the thread topic, consider this: why, do you suppose, did Lori/Caro choose to put that jump where they did? As most of us should be able to see, it was not merely to gain a second-half jump bonus. In my view, it's clear that the jump placement was deliberately designed to create an emphatic, thrilling emotional punctuation, to bring the house down, as it were. In short, they were planning for a PCS boost from this technical element. If Caro had hit that jump, I do not doubt that it would have had the desired effect.

But having recognized this, what should, logically, be the effect of a fall on that aesthetically critical jump? Yes, I would argue that it should negatively impact PCS, just as its clean execution would have positively affected it. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

I agree with this post. The problem is, in it's rush to compartmentalize everything, the IJS does not put much emphasis on the actual program, despite the language "program components." Carolina Kostner's fall absolutely destroyed the mood of program that she was trying to weave.

Yet, if you check off the bullets for choreography, say,

Purpose -- check.

Proportion -- check.

Unity -- check.

Utilization of personal and public space -- check.

Pattern and ice coverage -- check.

Phrasing and form -- check.

Originality of purpose and design -- check.

There you go.

 

[SGrand]

Not exactly good logic there. The gap between V/M and D/W skills and quality of dance vs The Rest of the Pack, is much larger than that of Kostner vs other top ladies, or Chan vs other top men. Or S/S vs the Pairs Posse chasing them. So they might have a fall cushion--maybe one fall or major mistake. I think judges are gentler on V/M's mistakes though, than they are on a D/W mistake or that of other dance teams. Chan in particular though, seems to have an almost infinite "fall and major mistake quota"--highly disruptive to PCS components--that the judges refuse to properly lower his marks for.

Davis and White make mistakes???

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Double Standard

The question being raised is not about the judging, but about fan's reaction, right? Why do fans and spectators get mad when Patrick Chan wins with a bad free skate?

If this is the question, I think the answer is simple. Chan won. We do not want our world champion to back into the title as the result of idiosyncrasies of the scoring system.

Whether someone got third when they deserved second is not so much in your face.

I agree, and people seem to be making this point that he was the champion. But IMO, if Kim or Volosozhar/Trankov hadn't competed (due to injury or something) and runners-up Kostner and the Germans were bumped up to 1st with their performances it would be just as outrageous. I also wonder what the reaction would have been if Ten hadn't skated, and Chan was 15 points lower in the FS and still won if people would still be outraged (though the answer is obvious).

As for Kostner checking off the points, I agree with those (and I'm sure V/M would get those checked off too)... but in the grand scheme of things, a fall in the SP or SD shouldn't put you in second place when others skate clean.

If Kostner went out there and doubled all of her jumps, I bet you would still get people defending a high placement due to the quality of her skating. Say she had reduced her 3-3 to a clean 3T-2T, and essentially had a jump layout of 3T-2T, 3L, and 2A - likely placing her second... people wouldn't bat an eyelid, because she skated clean with a beautiful program, and not even be like "2nd with those jumps, when others did 3-3, 3F, 2A?!"

I agree that Kostner is a wonderful skater, but it's a sport and she (and Chan/Germans/V-M, etc.) should not be propped up by PCS. Like, what's the point of any other skater even competing against Kostner (or V/M) if they have to put out a perfect skate with harder elements and hope she makes big errors in order to at least be only 1 or 2 points behind her?

It's a sport and people should be attempting difficulty and be penalized when they make major errors. A fall in an SP or SD should immediately put you out of the top 3 if others skate clean... I don't care if the ice turns gold wherever you touch it -- you committed a major error on 1 of 3 jumping passes (not to mention, in Kostner's case, an inferior jump layout to begin with). If Chan fell on his quad in the SP, and still pulled in 90 points behind a clean Denis Ten, I'm pretty sure nobody here would be like "Well, he nailed the other aspects of his program, and is a way better skater than the others, so it's deserved." Yu Na landed 3Z-3T, 3F, 2A and Kostner did 3-3 with a fall (gifted with -2's, and the tech specialist didn't recognize the UR), 3L, 2A and was just 3 points behind her, and ahead of Murakami/Osmond who did 3-3, 3F, 2A. If people want to treat this as a legitimate sport you can't be defending people who technically falter.

I get that people here will hate Chan just for the sake of hating Chan, but at least if you're going to criticize him, apply the same criticism to other skaters who also benefit from PCS advantages over the rest of the field.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Not exactly good logic there. The gap between V/M and D/W skills and quality of dance vs The Rest of the Pack, is much larger than that of Kostner vs other top ladies, or Chan vs other top men. Or S/S vs the Pairs Posse chasing them. So they might have a fall cushion--maybe one fall or major mistake. I think judges are gentler on V/M's mistakes though, than they are on a D/W mistake or that of other dance teams. Chan in particular though, seems to have an almost infinite "fall and major mistake quota"--highly disruptive to PCS components--that the judges refuse to properly lower his marks for.

I agree that their quality of dance is greater. But in something like ice dance where falls are so rare, one ice dance fall is like committing 2 or 3 falls in singles.

Chan doesn't always have an almost infinite fall and major mistake quota. He lost the freeskate, didn't he? Not to mention, Hanyu, Fernandez and Takahashi all had falls and major mistakes too, over both segments of the competition.

Another question about disruptions and skating clean:

Javier Fernandez, like Ten, didn't fall or get negative GOE on any of his elements, and his program is better than Ten's (2 quads and 5 triples, versus 1 quad and 6 triples... doesn't that mean with a doubled quad and a singled lutz he should have gotten higher PCS than Ten with his "clean skate"?