Ice Dance FD - 2014 Russian Championships | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Ice Dance FD - 2014 Russian Championships

Why do we invest so much energy in spewing all this hate towards a young pair like I/K? It is obvious that they were very nervous here, they almost always seem to not be able to give their best in Russia. I think the answers to their failings lie in the psychological fallout after leaving Zhulin. The hate directed at them for not leaving in a more discrete manner, has been epic. I think there is a lot going on behind the scenes that we are not privy to.

Somehow however they need to get the past out of their heads and move on. They were simply sublime in Paris, so I am not quite ready to write them off. Besides in their post fd interview Nik mentioned that their skates clashed, maybe they were just going for too much. Freak spills happen to everyone. B/S had a big one at GPF last year, and they had two falls this season. Let's see how they move forward :-)
 
I/k are vets! being in seniors for 4 years now and around as long as vm and dw when they started doing really well. But they can't have more than one or two good compeitons a season! They aren't working out. They start the season with a virtual all level 2 SD and look like incompetent boobs at this nationals just like they did in 2013 worlds.
 
Lota said:
Well, I'm probably in the minority of one here, but B/S program is starting to grow on me. I still think it needs less focus on speed and more on detail, but... yeah, I noticed I kinda started liking it. Perhaps it's the fact that they are so committed to the program? I don't know, but while the score is inflated, they did skate rather well here :)
Click to expand...
Yeah I think it's improved a lot. It doesn't look as ridiculous as it did when they started. Still like their FD from last year a lot more though.

Their SD from this season is good though. I like all the closed dance holds they have at the end. Just wish they'd do a rotational lift at the end to match the music and end with a bang.
 
I just got back. So Ilynikh/Katsalopov messed up the twizzles, fell (both of them) before a lift and had an extended lift and still placed second?

...
 
Frenchie said:
Do you have a link to them skating to the original music you're speaking of? I'm not sure I understand what changed, or when.
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fELRKt-_GHo - it is from test skate.

It was Zhulin's decision to change short dance and music for free dance. But the Russian Federation reccomended it to him. To change short dance was a good choice. To change free dance music - it is still quetion, so many people like the previous one more, but classical music is almost always stronger then modern music (even beautiful). Last year Zhulin was forced to change at least a part of music from free dance to Tosca - he was forced by Tarasova.

What is surprising me is the time when all changes were done. At the end of August, while all other couple are ready to compete (at least American, French and Canadian couples). From April to August Russian Federation is talking about great preparation of Russian skaters and how everything is well, everybody is fine, they are all satisfied how skaters are working and so on......
and suddenly at the end of August Russian Federation found that Bobrova had bad programs or bad music - too late, no? They didn't notice it sooner??? What they were waiting for?

And don't forget that programs were changed even before some competitions, very often changing of programs starts when judges don't like it (than a couple comes with new one or comes to last year program), this time judges even didn't see the dance. So it was obviously Russian Federation decision.

For Bobrova and Soloviev it was completely new situation, new short and so fast music for free dance. While other couples prepared their new programs since April and May, Bobrova had new dance and new music for free dance at August and September. It think that this step of Russian Federation was strange and weird a lot.
 
Ilinykh/Katsalapov shouldn't get any base value for the lift because there is no lift. Maybe they thought last choreographic lift, actually a lift too. :confused: Their TES is really high.
 
This is beyond frustrating in too many ways.

Ilynikh/Katsalopov were special in the season they won Junior Worlds. They had so much potential. Now, I obviously don't know all the details but according to some sources, their work ethic is questionable and while they have blamed Zhulin for not making more progress, I heard some people say the problem was them not working hard enough.

And now we have this ridiculous, unhealthy situation with Ilynikh being both Morozov's student and romantic partner and there is a total lack of consistency for which there can be only two reasons. Either there are some psychological issues (lack of focus, inability to deal with pressure) or there is indeed a lack of a work ethic.

Given they have shown in the past that they aren't consistent, why is the Russian Federation pushing them so much, placing them 2nd despite having made those mistakes?
 
Ziggy said:
I just got back. So Ilynikh/Katsalopov messed up the twizzles, fell (both of them) before a lift and had an extended lift and still placed second?

...
Click to expand...

Not really.....
- Lena fell before second lift (I saw it again and again even in slow motion, the final decision is that it was Lena's mistake, before the lift she normally opens her legs to allowed Nikita's leg to get into position, this time Lena open her legs and immediately closed them, which caused that her skates crashed into Nikita's skate)
- after the fall it took so long to get to the dance again
- in circular step sequence they were looking for each other (the distance was too huge between them), Elena forget to straight her free leg completely, and they were out of rhythm again
- again bad position in spin with not 180 degrees (sorry to repeat it but I don't undestand how they can get level for it)
- all three series of twizzles were out of synchro
- in second step sequence Nikita almost stumbled in the middle in turns and Lena almost stumbled in last turns
- after last lift Lena didn't hold her back and posture and crash both hands into the ice (hard to describe it) - probably it was counted like fall also
- overall slower skating then usually, lost concept, just doing elements and failing in some of them

They didn't fight after the fall which was the biggest disappointment for me.

Still they get 99 point overall, and 46 point for element score - without one element and with other elements with mistakes (Bobrova had about 50, Sinitsina 48, Riazanova, Monko and others had less than Ilinykh with such bad performance).

I hope that no more there will be opinions about Russian Federation putting down Ilinykh. Such score is ridiculous for what they did there. But I understand that they needed to finish second because only first and second couple is quaranteed to skate at Euros and probably Olympics. But to finish second after this....all first seven couples had better skate today.
 
Ziggy said:
This is beyond frustrating in too many ways.

Ilynikh/Katsalopov were special in the season they won Junior Worlds. They had so much potential. Now, I obviously don't know all the details but according to some sources, their work ethic is questionable and while they have blamed Zhulin for not making more progress, I heard some people say the problem was them not working hard enough.

And now we have this ridiculous, unhealthy situation with Ilynikh being both Morozov's student and romantic partner and there is a total lack of consistency for which there can be only two reasons. Either there are some psychological issues (lack of focus, inability to deal with pressure) or there is indeed a lack of a work ethic.

Given they have shown in the past that they aren't consistent, why is the Russian Federation pushing them so much, placing them 2nd despite having made those mistakes?
Click to expand...

Because they are the second best team in Russia. I'm no I/K fan, but the other teams below them aren't quite soup yet. Even if I/K is terribly inconsistent on a really good day they can score extremely well (see TEB 2013). You can't say that with the other couples below them.

And even if they do terribly, they still can at least still be at least in the top 10, something, again, the other teams can't do. Even with that meltdown at Worlds, they still finished 9th. The other teams would likely finish 9th with a clean program.

So it makes total sense they would want to ensure their place in the Olympics because at their best they do have a shot at bronze.

That said it is maddening that they can go from complexly amazing one day to completely mess the next.
 
sisinka said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fELRKt-_GHo
Click to expand...

Ah, thanks a lot Sisinka!
I understood the previous posts like there was a (minor) change in music in the LP, but that it was basically the same program, with the same theme.
In this video, I don't recognize the frightened birds at all, so it looks like a 99% different program to me... Given what I think of the frightened bird idea, that's a good thing! ;)
The music break in the middle sounded to me like the program and the music arrangement weren't finished yet. But yes, I like this more, mainly because the "new" start isn't there, where they sit together at the beginning and "look around frantically", which is my main issue with the "frightened birds".
 
Mrs. P said:
Because they are the second best team in Russia. I'm no I/K fan, but the other teams below them aren't quite soup yet. Even if I/K is terribly inconsistent on a really good day they can score extremely well (see TEB 2013). You can't say that with the other couples below them.

And even if they do terribly, they still can at least still be at least in the top 10, something, again, the other teams can't do. Even with that meltdown at Worlds, they still finished 9th. The other teams would likely finish 9th with a clean program.

So it makes total sense they would want to ensure their place in the Olympics because at their best they do have a shot at bronze.

That said it is maddening that they can go from complexly amazing one day to completely mess the next.
Click to expand...

They aren't the second best team in Russia. This belief is wrong and is blocking better teams like s/z and s/b! It's time to end their place as second because they may practice for a day or two and then Elena may go on a trip with morozov and be a couple and then I/k can practice again.
 
bramweld said:
Why do we invest so much energy in spewing all this hate towards a young pair like I/K? It is obvious that they were very nervous here, they almost always seem to not be able to give their best in Russia. I think the answers to their failings lie in the psychological fallout after leaving Zhulin. The hate directed at them for not leaving in a more discrete manner, has been epic. I think there is a lot going on behind the scenes that we are not privy to.

Somehow however they need to get the past out of their heads and move on. They were simply sublime in Paris, so I am not quite ready to write them off. Besides in their post fd interview Nik mentioned that their skates clashed, maybe they were just going for too much. Freak spills happen to everyone. B/S had a big one at GPF last year, and they had two falls this season. Let's see how they move forward :-)
Click to expand...

I agree with you Bramweld in one thing....people should not push this couple to split or leave coach, it is their personal thing indeed.

What I don't agree with you is why you excuse them. Looking at hate - the biggest hate was given to Bobrova this season and in 2011/2012 season, everybody was punishing them and Kustarova, then them and Zhulin. They were fighting, working hard, sometimes failed and then sparkled again. They are challenging the biggest pressure of all teams, because they are number 1 for four years in row (I hope you don't hasitate than number 1 is under bigger pressure then number 2 or 3). Bobrova and Soloviev are not perfect and in my opinion they have still a lot of work to do to be such champions like ex Russian Worlds and Euros Champions, but today as well as in last four years they are the best what Russia may offer in ice dance.

What I don't like looking at Lena and Nikita from technical side and from presentation/story line/changing style, you already know.

What I don't like also is the fact that they are not fighters at all!!!
We have many couples who made a mistake, loose some levels. But I don't know another couple who destroys whole program and most of elements after one stupid mistake. After the first mistake - the fall Lena completely lost focus, Nikita tried to come her back kissing her hand but he didn't succeed, he also lost concetration and it went worse and worse - another mistakes, slow skating and even boring skating. It happened already in free skate at Worlds and again it happened here.

If you want to be champion you must have champions character. Which means that you fight and fight and fight even in moment when you may think that everything is lost! It is bad when you loose one element, but to loose other elements because of first mistake is even worse.

Bobrova fell at COR and GPF, but she stood up and continued and didn't make more mistakes. She fought to the end and didn't messed other elements. Bobrova lost component mark for the fall both at COR and GPF (Lena didn't lost component mark as I noticed - they still got second highest components - I wonder WHY??? )

Being number 1 means that you can handle pressure (Bobrova is still fighting with it, but she handled it here very well) and even after mistake you continue and fight (Bobrova does it). Lena and Nikita are not ready to fight even when they are not number 1. If everything goes well and the weather is good and they feel well, and the coach is smiling - they Lena and Nikita skates well, maybe not with levels but without obvious mistakes, sometimes. When something is not ideal for them, then they skate with many mistakes and can't come back to the dance and simply they can't fight. How they would skate if they were number 1 and all country would be pressuring them like number 1 team???
 
Thank you very much for all of the details, sisinka. Wow, so they really bombed.

I understand your point Mrs. P. I/K have the potential to score best out of the Russian teams. But they have been very hit and mess. Their continued support is taking opportunities away from other teams who need exposure and experience in order to develop. I love I/K when they are at their best but it's just not fair. :(
 
Ziggy said:
Thank you very much for all of the details, sisinka. Wow, so they really bombed.

I understand your point Mrs. P. I/K have the potential to score best out of the Russian teams. But they have been very hit and mess. Their continued support is taking opportunities away from other teams who need exposure and experience in order to develop. I love I/K when they are at their best but it's just not fair. :(
Click to expand...

Well luckily there are three spots, so at least one of those teams will get the experience (S/Z, I'm guessing).

To be clear, I don't agree with the scoring. 99+ for that program is downright silly, but I can sort of understand their logic.

I hope you would do your usual analysis of this FD, Ziggy. I'd like to know how you would score + place the different teams.
sisinka said:
I agree with you Bramweld in one thing....people should not push this couple to split or leave coach, it is their personal thing indeed.

What I don't agree with you is why you excuse them. Looking at hate - the biggest hate was given to Bobrova this season and in 2011/2012 season, everybody was punishing them and Kustarova, then them and Zhulin. They were fighting, working hard, sometimes failed and then sparkled again. They are challenging the biggest pressure of all teams, because they are number 1 for four years in row (I hope you don't hasitate than number 1 is under bigger pressure then number 2 or 3). Bobrova and Soloviev are not perfect and in my opinion they have still a lot of work to do to be such champions like ex Russian Worlds and Euros Champions, but today as well as in last four years they are the best what Russia may offer in ice dance.

What I don't like looking at Lena and Nikita from technical side and from presentation/story line/changing style, you already know.

What I don't like also is the fact that they are not fighters at all!!!
We have many couples who made a mistake, loose some levels. But I don't know another couple who destroys whole program and most of elements after one stupid mistake. After the first mistake - the fall Lena completely lost focus, Nikita tried to come her back kissing her hand but he didn't succeed, he also lost concetration and it went worse and worse - another mistakes, slow skating and even boring skating. It happened already in free skate at Worlds and again it happened here.

If you want to be champion you must have champions character. Which means that you fight and fight and fight even in moment when you may think that everything is lost! It is bad when you loose one element, but to loose other elements because of first mistake is even worse.

Bobrova fell at COR and GPF, but she stood up and continued and didn't make more mistakes. She fought to the end and didn't messed other elements. Bobrova lost component mark for the fall both at COR and GPF (Lena didn't lost component mark as I noticed - they still got second highest components - I wonder WHY??? )

Being number 1 means that you can handle pressure (Bobrova is still fighting with it, but she handled it here very well) and even after mistake you continue and fight (Bobrova does it). Lena and Nikita are not ready to fight even when they are not number 1. If everything goes well and the weather is good and they feel well, and the coach is smiling - they Lena and Nikita skates well, maybe not with levels but without obvious mistakes, sometimes. When something is not ideal for them, then they skate with many mistakes and can't come back to the dance and simply they can't fight. How they would skate if they were number 1 and all country would be pressuring them like number 1 team???
Click to expand...

Yes, as much as I dislike the FD, there is no doubt that Ekaterina and Dmitri sell it for all its worth. I/K has had an entire quad to beat them and have only done so once. (At Worlds 2012.)
You can't be No. 1 until you actually beat the No. 1 team no matter how much hype you give them.
 
elif said:
Their leg position enough for the level. You can see from page 93. Requirement is not 180 degree. If both legs are straight and higher than the head, this will count as level, at least in spins.

http://isuprod.blob.core.windows.net/media/104330/handbook-for-technical-panels-2013-final.pdf
Click to expand...


I am sure you are wrong, you are pointing position where free leg is aside body and skater hold that leg.

Lena position is different - on page 27 -
Difficult Variations of Basic Position Camel (examples):
Body bent forward to the spinning leg and free leg extended backward and upward up to almost
a full split (with the angle between thighs about 180 degrees);- Lena had about 150-160 degrees
 
sisinka said:
I agree with you Bramweld in one thing....people should not push this couple to split or leave coach, it is their personal thing indeed.

What I don't agree with you is why you excuse them. Looking at hate - the biggest hate was given to Bobrova this season and in 2011/2012 season, everybody was punishing them and Kustarova, then them and Zhulin. They were fighting, working hard, sometimes failed and then sparkled again. They are challenging the biggest pressure of all teams, because they are number 1 for four years in row (I hope you don't hasitate than number 1 is under bigger pressure then number 2 or 3). Bobrova and Soloviev are not perfect and in my opinion they have still a lot of work to do to be such champions like ex Russian Worlds and Euros Champions, but today as well as in last four years they are the best what Russia may offer in ice dance.

What I don't like looking at Lena and Nikita from technical side and from presentation/story line/changing style, you already know.

What I don't like also is the fact that they are not fighters at all!!!
We have many couples who made a mistake, loose some levels. But I don't know another couple who destroys whole program and most of elements after one stupid mistake. After the first mistake - the fall Lena completely lost focus, Nikita tried to come her back kissing her hand but he didn't succeed, he also lost concetration and it went worse and worse - another mistakes, slow skating and even boring skating. It happened already in free skate at Worlds and again it happened here.

If you want to be champion you must have champions character. Which means that you fight and fight and fight even in moment when you may think that everything is lost! It is bad when you loose one element, but to loose other elements because of first mistake is even worse.

Bobrova fell at COR and GPF, but she stood up and continued and didn't make more mistakes. She fought to the end and didn't messed other elements. Bobrova lost component mark for the fall both at COR and GPF (Lena didn't lost component mark as I noticed - they still got second highest components - I wonder WHY??? )

Being number 1 means that you can handle pressure (Bobrova is still fighting with it, but she handled it here very well) and even after mistake you continue and fight (Bobrova does it). Lena and Nikita are not ready to fight even when they are not number 1. If everything goes well and the weather is good and they feel well, and the coach is smiling - they Lena and Nikita skates well, maybe not with levels but without obvious mistakes, sometimes. When something is not ideal for them, then they skate with many mistakes and can't come back to the dance and simply they can't fight. How they would skate if they were number 1 and all country would be pressuring them like number 1 team???
Click to expand...

This is a great explanation of why I/k need to break up and find better partners for each other or so Elena can retire and be morozovs wife which is her main interest.
 
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