Are Savchenko & Szolkowy the 2nd most held up skater(s) of the last decade, after Chan?

[Ziggy]

No, but FS is a performance sport. When I watch someone fall during a dance routine it is jarring, and I feel the same when skaters fall.

Of course it is jarring. But it doesn't mean that everything else suddenly becomes worse. A fall is a fall and everything else is still everything else. Deduct for it on the GOE of the element, take the 1.00 out, consider it on the PCS if it disrupts the flow of the performance. But if everything else is still good, it's still good and should get appropriate credit.

And you can look at it from a different perspective like:

- 'Wow, that skater really is fighting and trying their best and not giving up despite falling 14 times. RESPECT!'

- 'Damn! I hate it when jumps being landed gets in the way of skaters actually knowing how to skate. It's just ridiculous that a skater who can't even get from one end of the rink to the other unless he does 15 badly scraped cross-overs gets held up by the judges just because he landed a stupid quad. *complains to the complaint department* '

 

[pangtongfan]

Of course it is jarring. But it doesn't mean that everything else suddenly becomes worse. A fall is a fall and everything else is still everything else. Deduct for it on the GOE of the element, take the 1.00 out, consider it on the PCS if it disrupts the flow of the performance. But if everything else is still good, it's still good and should get appropriate credit even if you fall 5 times.

If skaters start winning gold medals with 5 falls (other than Chan who already does) then with the retirements of Kim and Asada and possibly V&T, skating will have so little fans anywhere in the World it will go bankrupt and cease to exist. If you are a true fan of the sport the last thing you should want is skaters to get away with more mistakes than the likes of Chan, and to a lesser degree Asada, S&S, and some others already get away with.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Of course it is jarring. But it doesn't mean that everything else suddenly becomes worse. A fall is a fall and everything else is still everything else. Deduct for it on the GOE of the element, take the 1.00 out, consider it on the PCS if it disrupts the flow of the performance. But if everything else is still good, it's still good and should get appropriate credit even if you fall 5 times.

Exactly. The quality of choreography (assuming falls don't disrupt it), skating skills and transitions (again assuming falls don't disrupt it), shouldn't be adversely affected if they are performed to the same standard as a skate without a fall(s). Performance and interpretation however can be affected, as it jars the performance and is detrimental to the mood being created.

 

[Mrs. P]

Seriously, how fun is it to kick a team while they're down? For someone to start a thread like this (especially seeing Aliona cry in the flower ceremony) is pretty heartless, if you ask me.

Glad that Pang and Tong are much more classy, as expected.

 

[Ziggy]

If skaters start winning gold medals with 5 falls (other than Chan who already does) then with the retirements of Kim and Asada and possibly V&T, skating will have so little fans anywhere in the World it will go bankrupt and cease to exist. If you are a true fan of the sport the last thing you should want is skaters to get away with more mistakes than the likes of Chan, and to a lesser degree Asada, S&S, and some others already get away with.

You could fix that by making falls mean no value for that element. It would mean much more conservative programs technically but so be it. I guess the problem with that would be the sharp line between a fall and a heavy step out so you'd have to penalise all mistakes more harshly I guess. I don't know.

Still, the point you made in the OP was about past events, which used a judging system which gives partial credit to falls. Which means you can easily argue for skaters of Chan's or S/S skillset winning with falls on the basis of very high quality of everything else they perform. Because as far as PCS abilities go, most of their rivals don't come anywhere close. And they have only themselves to blame as well. I mean look at how much the Chinese pair teams were able to improve once they started working on the whole package and not just jumps. Don't expect to be scored higher if you cannot bother.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If skaters start winning gold medals with 5 falls (other than Chan who already does)

Point out ONE instance where Chan has won a gold medal with 5 falls. Even one.

 

[s_parks]

Wow, you sound really bitter. Way to talk about a pair that have just finished their careers. Nice to know that Pang/Tong themselves are much classier than you.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Still, the point you made in the OP was about past events, which used a judging system which gives partial credit to falls. Which means you can easily argue for skaters of Chan's or S/S skillset winning with falls on the basis of very high quality of everything else they perform. Because as far as PCS abilities go, most of their rivals don't come anywhere close. And they have only themselves to blame as well. I mean look at how much the Chinese pair teams were able to improve once they started working on the whole package and not just jumps. Don't expect to be scored higher if you cannot bother.

I agree. For people to acknowledge this though, they would have to divest themselves of personal bias or hatred towards Chan or S/S and actually acknowledge that their quality skating between the elements does mitigate any mistakes they might have. A lot of these people are also ones to disregard the short program and any mistakes that their own favourites make and simply like to make knee-jerk reactions wailing and whining about the skaters they hate still managing to score high.

 

[pangtongfan]

Seriously, how fun is it to kick a team while they're down? For someone to start a thread like this (especially seeing Aliona cry in the flower ceremony) is pretty heartless, if you ask me.

Glad that Pang and Tong are much more classy, as expected.

Oh please, Aliona doesnt give a darn what some random internet posters say about her on a internet forum (although with how seriously some posters seem to take themselves on here, I wouldnt be surprised if some have deluded themselves otherwise). And if that were not the case then feel for V&T who have gotten 20 times the criticsm on this forum as S&S for doing nothing other than winning events by skating cleanly most of the time, but being big bad evil Russians. Spew hatred and attacks on V&T daily at will, but how dare anyone say a thing about the godly S&S. (and this thread isnt even about them, it is about their scores and results over the years which they have no control nor am I assigning them any blame or personal criticsm for, but the people who give them).

 

[pangtongfan]

You could fix that by making falls mean no value for that element.

I would be in favor of that. Some other ideas are to have additional deductions taken for a 2nd or 3rd major stumble or fall (with guidelines to what constitutes a major stumble). PCS should be affected though if it affects the overall performance, which quite often it does. Chan (all the time pretty much), S&S (at times), Kostner (at times), show all that is wrong with COP in many ways.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Oh please, Aliona doesnt give a darn what some random internet posters say about her on a internet forum (although with how seriously some posters seem to take themselves on here, I wouldnt be surprised if some have deluded themselves otherwise). And if that were not the case then feel for V&T who have gotten 20 times the criticsm on this forum as S&S for doing nothing other than winning events by skating cleanly most of the time, but being big bad evil Russians. Spew hatred and attacks on V&T daily at will, but how dare anyone say a thing about the godly S&S. (and this thread isnt even about them, it is about their scores and results over the years which they have no control nor am I assigning them any blame or personal criticsm for, but the people who give them).

Right, because when you speak ill of Chan being held up, you aren't making it about him but merely the judges and scores. Give me a break.

"I'm not insulting the skaters personally.... I'm merely trivializing their achievements and trying to get people to think they didn't earn their success, that's all!" :sarcasm:

 

[Mrs. P]

Oh please, Aliona doesnt give a darn what some random internet posters say about her on a internet forum (although with how seriously some posters seem to take themselves on here, I wouldnt be surprised if some have deluded themselves otherwise). And if that were not the case then feel for V&T who have gotten 20 times the criticsm on this forum as S&S for doing nothing other than winning events by skating cleanly most of the time, but being big bad evil Russians. Spew hatred and attacks on V&T daily at will, but how dare anyone say a thing about the godly S&S. (and this thread isnt even about them, it is about their scores and results over the years which they have no control nor am I assigning them any blame or personal criticsm for, but the people who give them).

I only can speak for myself and what I post.

My policy is to not say anything here I wouldn't say to their face.

So if you can face Aliona and say your entire OP to her face right now, you have a lot of balls. (And not in a good way).

 

[pangtongfan]

I only can speak for myself and what I post.

My policy is to not say anything here I wouldn't say to their face.

So if you can face Aliona and say your entire OP to her face right now, you have a lot of balls. (And not in a good way).

If I were a reporter (which I am not so I have no reason to even present a hypothetical I talk to skaters othe than ones who train in my area that I have already met) and Aliona came up to me and asked how she thought they were scored in their careers for whatever random reason (maybe I had written an article) I would say my exact OP word to word as my stated opinion, yes. If I were a reporter and Chan asked me the same thing I would tell him he is without doubt the most overscored and held up skater in history and that what I gather is that 90% of skating fans and commentators would call him that too, and wouldnt give it a second thought. If either had a problem with that, that would be their problem.

 

[Mrs. P]

If I were a reporter (which I am not so I have no reason to even present a hypothetical I talk to skaters othe than ones who train in my area that I have already met) and Aliona came up to me and asked how she thought they were scored in their careers for whatever random reason (maybe I had written an article) I would say my exact OP word to word as my stated opinion, yes. If I were a reporter and Chan asked me the same thing I would tell him he is without doubt the most overscored and held up skater in history and that what I gather is that 90% of skating fans and commentators would call him that too, and wouldnt give it a second thought. If either had a problem with that, that would be their problem.

No, you didn't understand my question.

I'm asking if you would say all that RIGHT NOW to her face, as in: Would you come up to Aliona, uninvited, right after she skated and going through the raw emotions of the result and say everything you just said in this post? Just as a spectator in the arena who saw them skate.

That's what's you're virtually doing here. That's why I think it's heartless.

You can rationalize this all you want...but you're clearly in the minority at this point.

(Of course, I understand reporters have to come up to skaters in tough situations all the time....but even then, nobody would be as brash as you are here.)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No, you didn't understand my question.

I'm asking if you would say all that RIGHT NOW to her face, as in: Would you come up to Aliona, uninvited, right after she skated and going through the raw emotions of the result and say everything you just said in this post? Just as a spectator in the arena who saw them skate.

That's what's you're virtually doing here. That's why I think it's heartless.

You can rationalize this all you want...but you're clearly in the minority at this point.

I'm glad there are those like you Mrs. P who realize how terrible it is to post something like this right after the German's heartbreaking loss and bronze finish. It's obviously a vitriolic, fanatic response to their bronze, otherwise he would have started this thread long ago, and not right when his favourite team is most inconveniently pushed off the podium.

If it were either of the Canadians who placed just behind SS after a terrible skate (as was the case last Worlds), you just know he wouldn't have started a thread like this. But since it was Pang and Tong....

 

[MaiKatze]

Nobody should say something like this to their faces. Aliona & Robin are smaller and even more fragile looking in real life than on TV. They don't have the death stares other skaters have. It would be like hurting puppies!

 

[dorispulaski]

This whole thread is nasty and unnecessary. It is now closed. Please do not create another like it.