The Judging Controversy Thread

[BlackPack]

Caro did 2 triple Toes: First a 2A3T and later a 3T2T. Adding a third triple Toe would have meant 0 points for that invalid element.

I meant, adding a 3toe to several of her triples, in particular the 3F which she did beautifully and it seems that Sochi ice has been kind to her. Lots of people have done the 2a3t, so doing it would give her the leveling field but not surpass it unless she had more.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

That's very common, actually. More common than the reverse. Easier elements are easier to earn high GOE on.

So skaters have to choose their strategy. Go for the highest base value and risk giving up some GOE to lower quality, or stick with a lower base value and make up the difference in GOE.

3T+3T is not an easy element, but it is easier than 3Lz+3T.



I could also make an argument for any of the top three. I judged along at home just for fun, gave Sotnikova lower total PCS than Kostner (except for transitions) or Kim, and thought that Kim had done enough to win. But I haven't added up my scores with the tech panel calls to see what order my scores would have them in. I knew they were close.

I think any of the three would make a worthy Olympic champion, and it really kills the mood from that great night of skating to have to read all these conspiracy theories.

Instead of looking at past competitions or nationalities of the officials, what if we just looked at all the elements and all the components from all three of these skaters at this event and analyzed how we think they should be scored if we approach it without bias?

Or is it too late now that everyone has an axe to grind? At least when I was scoring live, I could just score what I saw without trying to prove anything about who should win, except whether I could come up with meaningful scores in real time. And unlike the real judges I couldn't affect the real results.

Should we come back to this in a few weeks or months when it may be easier to find videos of the whole programs online?

EVERYTHING

 

[jehan215]

You don't need to rebut a point I didn't make. I said entrances/exits are a criterium. That is the singular form of criteria, it doesn't mean it is the only thing considered.

Okay then, I agree with you. But on a side note, how would you explain Adelina's inside edge of the lutz jump? The underrotation of the triple toe loop? As you say, entrances/exits are an important criterium. But so are edges and rotations. Without the distinction of edges, why even bother about differentiating a flip from a lutz?

http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014...y-rigged-gold-medal-win/358425/#disqus_thread

P.S. If you don't believe in any of the sites, go download it yourself and watch in slow-mo. That's what I did.

 

[starrynight]

Did you reprimand your co-Yuna fans when they made personal attacks against others who disagreed? Or only me because I disagree with you?

Since you have screamed "ad hominem" at the top of your lungs so many times like a Kaplan LSAT student, I have thought you would not commit the same fallacy, unless you are an obnoxiously irrational and/or hypocritical anti-yuna bot.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Since you have screamed "ad hominem" at the top of your lungs so many times, I have thought you would not commit the same fallacy, unless you are an obnoxiously irrational and/or hypocritical anti-yuna bot.

That's awfully dramatic to assume I'm yelling anything. I love how I agree with the judges and all the NBC commentators and that somehow makes me "irrational" when you Yuna fans sit here for 109 pages conspiring to come up with some narrative that is going to convince a level-headed person that Adelina won because someone cheated, rather than her being the best athlete in an athletic event.

 

[ice coverage]

I'm just merely rebutting your point that entrances/exits are the main "criterium" for jumps. And no, Adelina had some good jumps in there. It's just that the judges acted blind for those that weren't good.

You don't need to rebut a point I didn't make. I said entrances/exits are a criterium. That is the singular form of criteria, it doesn't mean it is the only thing considered.

Time-out for a little FYI, folks: "criterion" is the singular of "criteria."

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/criterion​

(Sorry, I am not a Kaplan LSAT student. I just like words. :yes

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Time-out for a little FYI, folks: "criterion" is the singular of "criteria."

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/criterion​

(Sorry, I am not a Kaplan LSAT student. I just like words. :yes

Aw you are ruining my credibility here! Now you have given the bots a reason to attack

 

[starrynight]

I love how I agree with the judges and all the NBC commentators and that somehow makes me "irrational"

Objection, irrelevancy. I only referred to your ad hominem accusation against others and your evasion of self-accusation.

 

[gmyers]

http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014...y-rigged-gold-medal-win/358425/#disqus_thread

^this.

There is no evidence here! There's ignorance. The article is so dumb it says 4 judges are in on a fix but then only 3 of those would count! LOL so there are 5 other judges. All of who gave Sotnikova good to great scores! People aren't making sense. There are nine judges. Highest and lowest scores thrown out. 7 count. 8 of 9 judges gave Sotnikova great PCS and GOE.

 

[jehan215]

So no one can explain Adelina's inside edge of the lutz jump? Or the under-rotation?

By the way according to the ISU guidelines, a two-footed landing is punished by -2 or -3 GOE. Why hasn't that been implemented on Adelina's scoresheet?

 

[jehan215]

There is no evidence here! There's ignorance. The article is so dumb it says 4 judges are in on a fix but then only 3 of those would count! LOL so there are 5 other judges. All of who gave Sotnikova good to great scores! People aren't making sense. There are nine judges. Highest and lowest scores thrown out. 7 count. 8 of 9 judges gave Sotnikova great PCS and GOE.

Yes, only three would count - but the head of technical control should be calling for wrong edges and underrotations - that could've costed some points.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I only referred to your ad hominem accusation against others and your evasion of self-accusation.

I think Yuna fans are proud to be called Yuna fans you are all united in your desire to personally tear down commentators and fellow posters who do so much as offer compelling counter-evidence to your arguments.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

By the way according to the ISU guidelines, a two-footed landing is punished by -2 or -3 GOE. Why hasn't that been implemented on Adelina's scoresheet?

Is that exactly what the rules say?

 

[gmyers]

Yes, only three would count - but the head of technical control should be calling for wrong edges and underrotations - that could've costed some points.

Bad edges can always cause negative goe called or not. The ur thing was not called because it didn't exist! Even if it did Yuna could've been given an ur too.

 

[jehan215]

Is that exactly what the rules say?

Oops, I meant -1 or -2. But anyways yeah, that's what it says.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?37873-How-Would-You-Explain-And-Apply-GOE-Rules

It's from ISU Communication 1724. Someone extracted the content from it.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Oops, I meant -1 or -2. But anyways yeah, that's what it says.

She did receive all -1 and -2, so her marks are entirely consistent with that.

 

[Icey]

Whatever happened to Patrick Chan? lmao

 

[jehan215]

She did receive all -1 and -2, so her marks are entirely consistent with that.

Hmm. Then where's the < on the protocol?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Hmm. Then where's the < on the protocol?

Which jump in that combo was <? The last 2Lo was overrotated 1/4.

 

[gkelly]

So no one can explain Adelina's inside edge of the lutz jump? Or the under-rotation?

From the angle in the clip that has been linked here several times, it does look as though she changed edge on the lutz, and as if the triple toe was about 90 degrees cheated.

From the angle on the NBCSN broadcast that I watched, those errors were not apparent.

It's possible that the angle that the technical panel saw was closer to what I saw on TV, they did not see a problem in real time, so they did not call for a review.

It's also possible that they did review the element, that the errors were ambiguous from the official camera angle, and so they gave her the benefit of the doubt, as the rules instruct.

And yes, Kim's second lutz was also questionable and also not called. Again, maybe the panel didn't review it, maybe they did review and thought it looked OK or at least doubtful and gave benefit of the doubt.

By the way according to the ISU guidelines, a two-footed landing is punished by -2 or -3 GOE. Why hasn't that been implemented on Adelina's scoresheet?

http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14 S&P Establishing GOE.pdf

Landing on two feet requires a -3 reduction in the GOE; stepping out (i.e., stepping onto the free foot down after first landing on one foot) requires -2 to -3 reduction.

The reduction is not necessarily subtracted from 0, but from whatever the GOE for the element would have been without the error, with the caveat that the final GOE must be negative. So any of -1, -2, or -3 is a valid score for a jump element with that error.

On this three-jump combination, the 3F was strong and deserved positive GOE. The 2T was fine. The 3Lo deserved -3, but if the element was already at +1 or +2, then when you subtract -3 you end up at -2 or -1 -- which this element did receive from all the judges. I would have gone with -2, but -1 is fine IMO.