The Judging Controversy Thread

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think that based upon her record and accomplishments, it's pretty fair to say that Michelle Kwan had some skills, without coming off like a "skate dictator". I'm just saying that a lot of skaters have paled in comparison to Michelle's skating quality. I don't think I'm alone in this thinking. Due to the judging controversy, I think Adelina becomes a target when her scores rank her among the best ever. Is this fair to her? No. But the blame falls squarely on those who have elevated her too quickly (in terms of skill, not in time as I realize that she's been at it for a while).

Love Kwan!!! I meant how people say things like Adelina's spiral is ugly which it isn't to some. I'm American but take it personally when people ridicule the Russian style of skating. I personally choose to work with Russian coaches because I prefer their methods and style. Frankly I find all of this quite intolerant and boarder line bigoted. Sorry if that offends. For god sake someone made fun of Yulia and called her a converted Jew and then


It's ok to disagree but a little tact goes a long way. Playful jabs are always funny IMO.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

And where's usethis2 when we need usethis2 sending everybody to spiral-discussing threads?

Seriously, people: what are judging controversy updates? Are there none? Then, why don't you leave this thread to rest in peace for a while?
There are tons of worthy discussions around. I believe that spiral quality is one of them and posters who are not interested in judging controversy would join it gladly if you started a thread.

No there is no new evidence!! Just speculation and insults here.

I tend to follow the " what's new" and don't follow just one thread so I'm all over the place. Sorry.

 

[Anna K.]

No there is no new evidence!! Just speculation and insults here.

I tend to follow the " what's new" and don't follow just one thread so I'm all over the place. Sorry.

Serves me right for asking

 

[cooper]

Yes, I'm delusional as is more than half the judging panel which scored her over 151. Maybe you are delusional for not seeing all the choreographically empty spots in Yuna and Caro's programs. Yuna spends 1/12 of her program to set up and execute her lutz combo; the flip and second lutz have long set ups too where she does nothing but skate into those elements. She doesn't even bother to do an arm movements to portray the mood of the music. She decided to rest on her reputation, skate an empty program with no 3Lo and expect to have the same result she has in the past. She was bound to get caught at some point and it happened in Sochi.

you mean the w-t-f choreography.. an all over the place/clunky footwork.. the flutz.. the stumble..not to mention with 3 questionable judges on the panel..one who has the conflict of interest.. one who is known cheater.. and the other one who has another conflict of interest..

the skating.. oh yeah it scored 149 points..

 

[Nadya]

Michelle Kwan's spirals were incredible because of her edge control (being able to switch from inside to outside edges). That showed the depth of her edges and power she skated with. Adelina has a long way to go to display this kind of skill. The good news for her is that she's not the only one.

She really isn't the only one; as beautiful as Kim is, I always cringed a little when she did her spirals. It's very unsightly and I wonder how such a detail-oriented skater decided to leave out a crowdpleaser element like the spiral.

 

[Nadya]

Spirals are about more than just the height of the free leg. That is also the reason most experts (other than Dick Button who orgasmed over the mere sight of Sasha) rated Kwans spirals above Cohen overall. Since the run of the blade, depth of edge, and flow were all superior to Sasha, even though Sasha had even better positions. Kostner and to a lesser degree Kim have good positions, extension, and pretty good (moreso Kostner) flexability, and are superior in all those other areas that surround the bladework of the spiral to Sotnikova.

Untrue; Button always praised Cohen's spirals as superior to rest of the field. Provide a source where he says Kwan's are above Cohen's.

 

[Nadya]

Skaters are skaters, not contortionists on ice. Her leg on her trademark spin just makes the rest of the spin look weird (It's usually poorly timed and uneven anyway). It's not an attractive position. If you wish to reward her with level of difficulty, take it away in her PCS, lol. It's difficult to land a back flip but they're not allowed (even when landed on one foot like Surya Bonaly did). So, it's not just about doing hard stuff. Again, skaters are not contortionists or acrobats.

And Kim's inverted camel spin doesn't look weird? It's an ugly position but she isn't doing it to be pretty; she's doing it because she knows it gets her extra points and she's right.

Backflips aren't banned because they are ugly; they are banned because they are considered a safety risk when landed on one foot.

 

[gkelly]

Backflips aren't banned because they are ugly; they are banned because they are considered a safety risk when landed on one foot.

I think it's more that they're a safety risk when landed on the head or neck.

And that the skills required to execute them aren't skating-related skills.

 

[Nadya]

I think it's more that they're a safety risk when landed on the head or neck.

And that the skills required to execute them aren't skating-related skills.

To be fair, the same can be said of female partner in lifts.

 

[gkelly]

To be fair, the same can be said of female partner in lifts.

True enough.

Looking at old videos of earlier eras of pair skating, it seems that lifts were more like assisted jumps than feats of strength for the man and acrobatics for the woman -- her takeoff and landing edges probably mattered more then, and his footwork still does. But they have evolved in a more acrobatic direction.

However there are pair moves such as Detroiters and headbangers that are common in show skating and illegal in competition, similar to backflips by singles.

 

[billie]

The IOC Printed Fake Quotes of Kim Yu-na Praising Adelina Sotnikova
http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014...-kim-yu-na-praising-adelina-sotnikova/358956/

IOC want so badly to justify the result.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Seriously, stop making up lies. You're either biased or blind. Every single one of Yuna's arm movements--and she has quite a few of them--reflect the music perfectly. There's not a fingertip out of place throughout the program, every single one has purpose and clarity.

And no, she doesn't just skate into elements (she has choreography in between pretty much every element unless she decided to make it a seamless transition from element to element, which DOES help your transitions score), and it is a complete fabrication on your part to say that she decided to "rest on her reputation, skate an empty program with no 3Lo and expect to have the same result as she had in the past." The only thing accurate in that post is that Yuna did not have a 3Lo. Otherwise, it's all lies, lies, lies. Find me a quote where Yuna said she expected to win the OGM in Sochi. She never said it, so you won't be able to find it. Your hostility and personal bias undermines your credibility to the point where it's evident you have none.

Relax. I didn't say she never did arm movements, I was just pointing out there are noticeable periods of time in which all choreography stops in her program. What interpretive arm movements do you see in the lead up to her lutz combo that I'm missing? In 13 seconds it's literally six back crossovers and then a pause and then the combo. Do we disagree about that?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

you mean the w-t-f choreography.. an all over the place/clunky footwork.. the flutz.. the stumble..not to mention with 3 questionable judges on the panel..one who has the conflict of interest.. one who is known cheater.. and the other one who has another conflict of interest..

the skating.. oh yeah it scored 149 points..

Well you don't have to like the choreography, but at least long periods don't go by when the choreography stops.

 

[starrynight]

I think it's more that they're a safety risk when landed on the head or neck.

And that the skills required to execute them aren't skating-related skills.

True. Well, I am excited about what Julia will bring in from her gymnastic background. She has a great potential to expand the horizon of figure skating, IMO.

 

[usethis2]

Found this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NIHBJBAqU

You'd have to be blind not to see the difference. Forget choreo, just look at the quality of every movement as well as the overall speed and effortlessness. ("Athleticism," as they say)

There are videos available now on fsuniverse. Watching Sotnikova and Kim's long programs back to back, it's really obvious that the latter's choreography is much emptier to garner points. After the judges had placed Sotnikova's LP ahead of Kostner's clean one, it makes sense to me Kim's scores shouldn't have been higher than Sotnikova's.

Try a side-by-side that I linked to in this post. It should be even more "obvious" to you. If you want a more authoritative analysis, there is a sticky -> Figure Skating Reference: Evaluating Step Sequences. I know Yuna and Mao's skating looks so effortless that some casual viewers can mistake it for "easy stuff." But I thought folks in this forum knew a bit more than that.

P.S. I forgot that Adelina received higher SS score than Carolina did. That has to be an even bigger joke. Since when have two-foot and flat-foot skating become "skillz"? Adelina's skating skill is miles ahead of Mao's, too, according to Sochi.

Adelina: 9.18
Mao: 8.75
Carolina: 9.14

 

[sk8in]

Relax. I didn't say she never did arm movements, I was just pointing out there are noticeable periods of time in which all choreography stops in her program. What interpretive arm movements do you see in the lead up to her lutz combo that I'm missing? In 13 seconds it's literally six back crossovers and then a pause and then the combo. Do we disagree about that?

Adelina has virtually no choreography in her program by comparison. She has transitions/footwork throughout the program, however none of it goes to the music---thus it is not choreography. I don't really think criticizing Yuna's crossovers is very meaningful. She does crossovers leading into her triple triple combination because it allows her to have one of the best/highest/smoothest jumping passes in the history of female skating. That's not really a problem. It is why she is awesome, and basically the Asian woman Michael Jordan of the sport.

Also looking back as the video, there is only a 3 second span where Yuna is just doing crossovers leading into her opening combo. She does do a basic arm movement, and skates backwards briefly leading into the jump. She also exits her jumps directly into choreography. Maybe it isn't Jason Brown's Y spiral/hydroblade, but to say the "choreography stops" is absurd.

*Also yes, the judges who gave Adelina nearly a world record score were delusional.

 

[usethis2]

Yuna should have received at least 3~4 points more in the SP. In the FS, if the tech panel's head wasn't the corrupt official then Adelina's fluts, UR, and step sequence levels would have been correctly called. Then even with the stratosphere PCS and GOEs Adelina received she would not have gotten higher total than Yuna. (Think about that)

Isn't it curious that Adelina did not attempt a 3Lz in the SP? If she is capable of it there is no reason not to use the opportunity for extra points. Was the tech caller the same dude in the SP? (Alexander Lakernik)

In any case, Adelina is incapable of executing lutz. As far as I know she received 'e' on her lutz's in every single competition last year. (except for Russian national and Cup of Russia :disapp

I really wish to move onto a constructive angle, even if it's a theorycraft, like how the IJS can be improved and how to mitigate judging corruption, but that seems impossible at this point. I have made several attempts in this thread but people seem to be either 1) deluded, 2) defeated, or 3) simply bad-faith. Not everybody, of course, but there are a few who are determined to disrupt the discussion.

 

[Nadya]

Yuna should have received at least 3~4 points more in the SP. In the FS, if the tech panel's head wasn't the corrupt official then Adelina's fluts, UR, and step sequence levels would have been correctly called. Then even with the stratosphere PCS and GOEs Adelina received she would not have gotten higher total than Yuna. (Think about that)

Isn't it curious that Adelina did not attempt a 3Lz in the SP? If she is capable of it there is no reason not to use the opportunity for extra points. Was the tech caller the same dude in the SP? (Alexander Lakernik)

In any case, Adelina is incapable of executing lutz. As far as I know she received 'e' on her lutz's in every single competition last year. (except for Russian national and Cup of Russia :disapp

I really wish to move onto a constructive angle, even if it's a theorycraft, like how the IJS can be improved and how to mitigate judging corruption, but that seems impossible at this point. I have made several attempts in this thread but people seem to be either 1) deluded, 2) defeated, or 3) simply bad-faith. Not everybody, of course, but there are a few who are determined to disrupt the discussion.

You forgot to add "worse than Hitler". That's what people tend to do when they run out of ways to say "you suck for disagreeing with me."

 

[jaylee]

Relax. I didn't say she never did arm movements, I was just pointing out there are noticeable periods of time in which all choreography stops in her program. What interpretive arm movements do you see in the lead up to her lutz combo that I'm missing? In 13 seconds it's literally six back crossovers and then a pause and then the combo. Do we disagree about that?

You originally stated, "She doesn't even bother to do an arm movements to portray the mood of the music." Now you say that you didn't say that she "never did arm movements", and now you're focusing on just the 3Lz/3T combo. Quit changing around your argument--it's dishonest and disingenuous and just plain wrong.

Yuna does a lot of crossovers into her opening 3Lz/3T, and guess what? It's a REAL 3Lz/3T combo, unlike Adelina Sotnikova's flutzed combo with underrotated 3T. I'll take a lot of crossovers into a real 3Lz/3T combo versus Adelina's anytime. It is absolutely not fair that Adelina got away without an edge call on that combo and reaped massive positive GOE when skaters like Yuna and Carolina and Gracie work so hard to have a true lutz. Adelina doesn't have to have lots of crossovers into her 3Lz because it's not a real lutz.

Other than her opening combo, Yuna does SOMETHING, with her upper body or her whole body, with her facial expressions, with an arm movement, in between every single other jumping pass. It's flat out wrong to say otherwise. The choreography doesn't stop.

 

[gkelly]

Isn't it curious that Adelina did not attempt a 3Lz in the SP? If she is capable of it there is no reason not to use the opportunity for extra points. Was the tech caller the same dude in the SP? (Alexander Lakernik)

The technical panel was the same for both short and long program.

The technical CALLER (aka the Technical Specialist) was VANESSA GUSMEROLI.

The Technical Controller was Alexander Lakernik.

Should we go over again how technical panels work?