The Death of Figure Skating as Art

[Blades of Passion]

Doing six crossovers into an element is neither technically difficult nor having much to do with discovering the secrets of music.

Yes it does. It's called buildup. Or pacing. It's an important concept in many forms of media. You want a sense of anticipation and you need contrast.

Crossovers are an essential part of the skating language and create a uniform look on the ice. When you are spending an entire program constantly doing turns and other movements, the context becomes lost. It's like writing a novel and being forced to abide by some random rule that every sentence must have at least two adjectives. The writing would become very labored and superfluous.

Why is it not possible?

Taking 50 seconds in your program to act and doing relatively simple moves in the field? There's absolutely NO time in a program under the current rules. Notice that in program he only did 6 jumping passes and the spins were rather short and to the point.

As I've talked about, movement is an entire language unto itself. The rules, and the judging, completely ERADICATE a vast amount of possible choreography and interpretation and performance.

There's no reason why a skater can't perform a program with character, pacing, finesse, charm, musicality, huge jumps with purpose, great edges and control in service of the music and also tailor that program to score well in IJS.

It's possible, but far more difficult now. Even when it can be accomplished, it's still going to be adhering to a formula of elements which must be performed, so programs are more predictable on the whole. It would be like telling filmmakers they must have a cut at least once every 5 seconds. Sure, you could potentially make a great film with that constraint, but the majority of films would become worse and even when they are great, they would be a lot more homogenous.

 

[Interspectator]

Yes it does. It's called buildup. Or pacing. It's an important concept in many forms of media. You want a sense of anticipation and you need contrast.

Crossovers are an essential part of the skating language and create a uniform look on the ice. When you are spending an entire program constantly doing turns and other movements, the context becomes lost. It's like writing a novel and being forced to abide by some random rule that every sentence must have at least two adjectives. The writing would become very labored and superfluous.



Taking 50 seconds in your program to act and doing relatively simple moves in the field? There's absolutely NO time in a program under the current rules. Notice that in program he only did 6 jumping passes and the spins were rather short and to the point.

As I've talked about, movement is an entire language unto itself. The rules, and the judging, completely ERADICATE a vast amount of possible choreography and interpretation and performance.



It's possible, but far more difficult now. Even when it can be accomplished, it's still going to be adhering to a formula of elements which must be performed, so programs are more predictable on the whole. It would be like telling filmmakers they must have a cut at least once every 5 seconds. Sure, you could potentially make a great film with that constraint, but the majority of films would become worse and even when they are great, they would be a lot more homogenous.

Film is not a sport.
However:
--Film also adheres to formulas in the majority of cases.
--Films that adhere to formulas have drawn in Billions of Dollars for the film industry.

Writing is not a sport.
and still...
--Random Rules in grammar are abundant. There are also countless rules for spelling and writing properly structured sentences.

 

[Alba]

Ruslan Zhiganzhin said in his interview, about Najarro and the choreo of their SD:

He told us so much about paso doble, about our roles in the short dance. We did so many different versions.
It is a pity that we can't use in the program everything he had taught us, because we are limited by figure skating rules.

BoP perhaps it's referring to that, when he says there is no time.
However, let's bare in mind that a program last for about 4 minutes, max.

@BoP: Take a program and tell us how would you construct it.

 

[RABID]

But this is subjective, isn't it? You and I can look at the same program and I might find it relates well to the music, whereas you think there is no relationship to the music. For example, I loved Caro's Bolero, especially the footwork. Others thought it was cheeky and affected.

No, it isn't. This discussion of subjectivity is irrelevant. It is not about how much of an artist a skater is it is about how deep a relationship a skater has to a piece of music; how deep the skater's feeling and understanding of the music. If deep enough there is art IF the choreography allows a skater's full expression of that relationship to the music. However sometimes the choreography is let down by the skater and sometimes the skater is let down by the choreography; a good example as any of the difference between what is and what isn't an "artistic" skater. And of course there is also us, the viewer, and how deep is our relationship? Can we recognize the art? The same rules apply to us; how deep is our relationship to the music we are hearing, the performance we are watching? If it is shallow it isn't art and that's not necessarily a bad thing, it just isn't art.

 

[Tavi...]

In a way I can understand Blade's frustration. It's easy and convenient to say art is subjective and thereby lets one off the hook of addressing a real concern. The fact is though we have artist not everyone can be one. Why is that? If art is subjective then by that logic everyone should be an artist right? Wrong. Anyone can dabble in art and anyone can dabble with the appreciation of art. But let's just say there is an art AND science to viewing as well as creating TRUE ART and like any other language the more articulate the more nuanced the communication. The quest is to find meaning or significance in a piece that communicates in a way SPECIFIC to the art form where words as a substitute would fail. Saying something was done really well or with heart is nice enough but a true artist usually has bigger goals for his or her audience. However as others have said this is a competitive sport and the reality is that that puts severe limitations on how REAL the supposed art of a skater's performance can be. But at the same time there is as I have stated an art and science to appreciating art as well and it is my opinion that that is truly what separates an artistic skater from a non artistic one; they have a deeper relationship with the music they are skating to and it translates then to their skating.

Everything you have written here is your subjective belief about what makes something art and how it should be judged.

 

[Alain]

Your PCS is exactly what it is of the exact moment you perform, not your reputation as a great artist or something like that.

 

[Alain]

I can name at least 10 ways his program would have been more beautiful if he had more freedom to do so.

The original Blues and Sonatina were Art. They had to change the choreography to please CoP.

I got your point. The chasing for technical points had resulted in spltafest that we saw in Sochi Men LP. :disapp:

What is your solution? What exactly ISU should do?

 

[Tavi...]

No, it isn't. This discussion of subjectivity is irrelevant. It is not about how much of an artist a skater is it is about how deep a relationship a skater has to a piece of music; how deep the skater's feeling and understanding of the music. If deep enough there is art IF the choreography allows a skater's full expression of that relationship to the music. However sometimes the choreography is let down by the skater and sometimes the skater is let down by the choreography; a good example as any of the difference between what is and what isn't an "artistic" skater. And of course there is also us, the viewer, and how deep is our relationship? Can we recognize the art? The same rules apply to us; how deep is our relationship to the music we are hearing, the performance we are watching? If it is shallow it isn't art and that's not necessarily a bad thing, it just isn't art.

Umm. All of the things you discuss here - for example, the depth of a skater's connection to the music - require a subjective judgment by the viewer. Does timing a jump or a movement to an accent in the music suggest that a skater is connected to the music? Well yes, at least superficially. But does it tell you how deep that connection is? No - and I say that as a musician. There is no absolute - there is only each person's absolute. At least, that's my opinion.

 

[Alba]

it just isn't art.

What is art?

 

[Meoima]

believe me, your favourites have received much benefit thanks to their reputation in the past. In fact most top skaters have. There is no "laugh" at this matter like "Ha, my favourite doesn't need boost score like yours" because if you check the protocols and their actual performances, you have to agree that all top skaters have been favoured and saved by the judges now and then. And if you refuse to admit that, then I am not sure which planet have you come from.

The artistry should depend on the actual performance, not the reputation. The label "great artist" is abused in this case.

They are skaters first, not artists first. If some want balletic movements or dance movement, I recommend them watch ballet and modern dance.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Film is not a sport.
However:
--Film also adheres to formulas in the majority of cases.
--Films that adhere to formulas have drawn in Billions of Dollars for the film industry.

Yes films have drawn in billions of dollars, because people want to watch them. People want to watch them because they are entertaining. People also like to watch football and basketball.

People do not want to watch skating that much as it currently exists.

If basketball had a rule that you can only score points if you are hopping on one leg and holding one arm behind your back, people would not like to watch or play that game. It would become a far more DIFFICULT game (in terms of that specific skill), but it wouldn't be something worth engaging in.

 

[Interspectator]

I find that people in Japan at least want to watch figure skating very much.
As much as the Japanese skaters like Takahashi and Akiko were artistic in their presentation, Japan's figure skating has been led also by Technicians who pushed the boundaries in Jumping as much as possible. Takeshi Honda, Ito Midori, Mao Asada, Miki Ando and Hanyu Yuzuru are all famous skaters who also brought figure skating to the public eye and therefore made it popular today. They have artistic talent too, but they put emphasis on the technical to great results. A well executed jump is a thing of beauty and art in itself.
I don't think the decline in skating interest in America is because of their lack of artistry but their lack of top medal contenders.

I find Ice Dance more artistic, but also less exciting to watch.
The number of people who watch Ice dance seems to point to this as well.

 

[Meoima]

This remind me of the current state of classical music. people say the young musicians focus too much on the technical side, and pay less attention to the "presentation" and "musicality". they are not wrong in some way. But frankly most people would love to come to the music hall and enjoy live music, rather than old recording from the past, no matter how great musician in the past are (presentation and musicality was superb but hit many wrong notes now and then).
Art evolves with times, sport evolves with time, it's impossible to stop the trend.

 

[Alba]

This remind me of the current state of classical music. people say the young musicians focus too much on the technical side, and pay less attention to the "presentation" and "musicality". they are not wrong in some way. But frankly most people would love to come to the music hall and enjoy live music, rather than old recording from the past, no matter how great musician in the past are (presentation and musicality was superb but hit many wrong notes now and then).
Art evolves with times, sport evolves with time, it's impossible to stop the trend.

I don't fully agree with him, but it's relevant to what you're saying about time evolving and different takes in music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ceXbC9SF1E

 

[Meoima]

I don't fully agree with him, but it's relevant to what you're saying about time evolving and different takes in music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ceXbC9SF1E

Oh, sir Simon Rattle surely knows to praise the "sun". :sarcasm: There is this talk by a great artist (what a pity he is not a great human being) about the evolution of music and I think it pretty much hit the point. You know Mikhail Pletnev (I detest him as a person, though)? I don't remember the link of the article but practically he said something like art also has its peak and slump. Once you reach to the top of "complexity", you will stay stagnant for a long time and only decline if you don't break down everything and start from scratch. So, to reach to a new level once you have reach a certain "peak", you have to break the whole construction down and build it step by step again.

FS to me, has been broken down by the time it's 2002 and they start rebuilding everything from the start with the introduction of CoP. And at the moment it's still the building process, CoP has not reach its peak. Surely we are seeing technical side dominating, but with times, more balanced programs will be introduced I am sure about that. Choreographer and skaters will eventually find the in between and make use of it and we might have the chance to see more beautiful programs again. And by that times, who know, maybe a new grading system might be introduced.

 

[Alba]

But we've seen beautiful programs already.

p.s. Rattle is not praising Karajan, on the contrary.
To me though Karajan is "god" (not on everything).

 

[Interspectator]

Oh, sir Simon Rattle surely knows to praise the "sun". :sarcasm: There is this talk by a great artist (what a pity he is not a great human being) about the evolution of music and I think it pretty much hit the point. You know Mikhail Pletnev (I detest him as a person, though)? I don't remember the link of the article but practically he said something like art also has its peak and slump. Once you reach to the top of "complexity", you will stay stagnant for a long time and only decline if you don't break down everything and start from scratch.

FS to me, has been broken down by the time it's 2002 and they start rebuilding everything from the start with the introduction of CoP. And at the moment it's still the building process, CoP has not reach its peak. Surely we are seeing technical side dominating, but with times, more balanced programs will be introduced I am sure about that. Choreographer and skaters will eventually find the in between and make use of it and we might have the chance to see more beautiful programs again.

Not to mention that right now there are so many young skaters whose presentation skills are still developing.
So really, if you want to see a skater at their artistic best, go see an Iceshow!
A skaters performance and technical skills almost never peak at the same time.
Kurt Browning certainly did even more artistic programs as a pro-skater than he did as a competitor.
The same with John Curry.

 

[Meoima]

But we've seen beautiful programs already.
p.s. Rattle is not praising Karajan, on the contrary.
To me though Karajan is "god" (not on everything).

Rattle is probably being political correct. We all know had he truly spoken his mind, he would have used other words. :sarcasm: Karajan, to me, is also a "god" at politiking. Tarasova is nothing if we compare her to him

And yes, we already see beautiful some programs already, but still not at the peak, there are still room for more.

 

[Alba]

Rattle is probably being political correct. We all know had he truly spoken his mind, he would have used other words. :sarcasm: Karajan, to me, is also a "god" at politiking. Tarasova is nothing if we compare her to him

No no, listen to him.
Do not touch me Karajan.

And yes, we already see beautiful some programs already, but still not at the peak, there are still room for more

There is always room. La bellezza è infinita.

 

[Meoima]

No no, listen to him.
Do not touch me Karajan.
There is always room. La bellezza è infinita.

With Karajan, there are people who hate him to the core, and there are people who worship him as a God. I have watched many documentaries about him. Some called him the greatest, some called him "only a smart man" Hardly anything in between, but I am that kind, the neutral side. I don't like Sir Rattle a bit. But I'd rather it's him who is in charge of BPO than Daniel Barenboim. I was kinda glad when sir Rattle won the vote to conduct BPO.

I wonder if one day, BPO can play in the background and our beloved skaters perform in the front?