The Death of Figure Skating as Art

[OS]

Rhetorical thread titles like this always amuse me. Yet in truth, the name of 'ART' has been abused, misguided, misinterpreted by many of the sport's practitioners, its guardianship, and its observers for far too long. 'ART' shouldn't be a 'catch-all' word to to cover the intangibles that makes this sport worth watching, but inevitably nearly always get lumped together with some personal preference/vendetta with out any depth of justification or quality of thoughts, not that dissimilar to how anonymous judging system can apparently accurately appraise PCS without being hold accountable.

The 'I like it, therefore it must be artistic. Art is subjective so I am always right - we will just have to agree to disagree' stance kills brains. But alas.... at least it keeps the boards peaceful and the forum administrators happy (o ye of little faith), but it is still one of the biggest mass hysterical self delusion on these boards. ...As TRUE as the 'anonymous judging is fairest judging method this Olympic Sport deserve' and that 'Cinquanta is the greatest and the most well respected valuable figure head of the sport for over 20 years'... I could go on, but why get more ugly? All I am saying is if you use that lazy argument in any art theory class in world, you deserve to be death spiralled by the professors triple times (minimum requirement) with -3 GOE, ! and e... that's all!

In theory, choreographers are in the best position of power to make a difference but rarely effective due to limited time constraint and resources, or in some cases, complacency and laziness takes over. Occasionally the skaters themselves can make a huge difference, but the reality is most skaters are far too young and lacking in the right talent, education, conviction, life experience to make the leap. To take complete ownership of their work, from choice of music, costumes, music edits, creative direction and have the technical proficiently, complete dedication and bravery (or foolery) to defend their work - as well the necessary interpretative skill to fully realise its full potential. It is incredibly rare someone who is capable of satisfying a multidisciplinary approach to satisfy COP and eventually create a piece of work that matches its ambitions. The few that managed (or can afford) to rise to the occasion have no guarantee for rewards for their extra efforts in pursuit of art. Under COP when all things are said and done, what is the real chance of art be allow to'happen'? Slim at best.

Great artistic realisation is an infinitely never ending evolving process; it is progressive, it is evolutionary, but it is different with 'DESIGN'. The best 'DESIGN' is what one can hope to achieve from now till the deadline, given the limited resources to fulfil particular sets of functional specifications to the best of the skaters abilities. So perhaps 'DESIGN' is a more accurate description of today's program rather than art. As COP matures, so do the life cycle process to deliver these requirements, so no wonder we are seeing works that felt manufactured/templates/formulated that appears to have ticked all the right boxes but clearly are not art? The role of the skater has become more of a 'CRAFT' exercise, in technical proficiency, delivery rather than any genuine art creation in the traditional sense. So why don't we get the term right? It is not art that is missing, but the market conditions clearly have changed. Like the industrial age, the art producing became now become more practical in craft/design oriented. This is not to say art does not exist in design or in craft, but as I have always said over the years: It is not which music you do, but what you do with it. It is not what you do but how you do it - that separate skaters in pursuit of art vs. just another imitator of the self, of tried and tested formula.

By the way, nothing against you BoP, but I find that education video you posted 'Why is Modern art so bad' hilarious. Particularly the info graphics that is totally hypocritical, intellectually dishonest and reductionistic.. Is this guy for real? (Hey maybe he is a figure skating judge, that would have explained some of the programs we keep getting) The video looks like some right wing preacher propaganda (KKK/Nazi variety) determining some universal excellence of a very shallow and narrow view. Sorry to say, but he has no real understanding of art and actually won't last an hour in any of the great art university/colleges in the world. What is Pregar university? Hmm.... On the other hand it is always nice to see Chris Ofili caused such outrage on the other side of the pond. He is clearly doing something right.

 

[OS]

Debunking some stuff

1. Art is subjective.

Oh no it isn't! Or rather it shouldn't be.

If art is truly subjective, then every artist can be the greatest ever. There'd be no need for art museums, art galleries, art councils, art shows, art patrons. Art critics, Art curators might as well all be jobless. No need for academics in art history, art theory, art students wasting their time and efforts to pursue academic excellence recognising, appreciating and creating great art at worlds most prestigious universities/colleges. Anyone can be qualified to be a judge at worlds most prestigious art competitions.

To the well informed however, who has a specific well laid out contextual framedwork of critical thinking, able to identify genuine artistic merits should be fairly easily to spot vs imitations and counterfeits. Those with the right knowledge, training, experience and qualifications should all able to do that, and able to separate personal preferences vs genuine artistic merit in the larger historical and cultural context. This is not possible under anonymity without accountability,


2. Art is dead.

Actually art alive and well. It is also everywhere, approx 98% bad to mediocre. 2% good to note worthy. Art exist as long as there skaters dress up in costumes, wearing makeup, skate to any form of music - utilising these cultural attributes as part of their performance. Finding Good art however is just as rare in the real world, liking to finding a needle in a hay stack.

Under the COP especially, that needle has become even more finer and harder to spot because the magnifying glass has been smogged with too many politician's stinky breaths to stench up the search. The judges usually are prone to be frustrated, lazy, simply give up, or just grateful someone managed to create some big branded familiar ugly sticks that are easily identifiable which has been placed on top of the hay stacks by an assuring strong federation hand (or colleague) - so they can pretend to call it a needle. As long as there are programs that goes for minimum effort, maximum scoring. Taking short cuts, safe choices, 'smart layout' consist of time wasting first half for half way bonuses; in pursuit of popularity, sentimentality, instant gratification with the judges/home crowd, there leaves no room for good or real art 'happening'.


3. Best Art is the one that
- won a competition
- won some internet poll
- has the highest PCS score

Nicht. Art is not a popularity contest. It is not home competition bonus. It can not be manufactured by some judging debacle. Its value should not be measured by consent. It is not the winner takes all.

The winning program is not necessarily the best art work. How it being referred and be remembered can add values to the work, but truly Time is the best honest appraisal of the work. How impactful the work can affect its environment, cultural, social, philosophical, historical factors and being referred to can also add to value and the success of the work.


4. The most artistic work is the most aesthetic work.

Not true. Even if you are some professor from Pregar university that makes youtube videos.
Actually aesthetic, and techniques are usually the least importance when judging a work of artistic value, although it is certainly the most obvious one, important one under this sport and easily recognisable. In craft however, it is certain most well appreciated.

In art, originality, creativity, exploration, authenticity, honesty, transcendence in self actualisation are far important indicators that separate great notable art from merely the most aesthetic one. If one is to assess the greatest art work of the past, they do not share a commonality as if they exist in a vacuum, but has a lot to do with context of the work, the conception, the journey, the cultural, social, philosophical impact that makes it an important, memorable and significant piece of work.


5. Art is possible under COP?

It is a question I have debated over the last few years. I'd love to join the doomsday brigade, but I figured I am actually fine with the 1-2% quality I am used to (Although with the veterans gone, the chances of that happening may have reduced by a decimal) that manage to surface, whether intentional or accidental, it doesn't matter. Art is life, life can get messy, so is art. I am interested in the process, the journey, not just about the end. I don't mind those struggled with it, as long as the program get progressively better, more interesting, nuanced, layered, finer and delicate rather than getting a ready made branded program gift wrapped in a box.

Art should be about moving forward. I wish all skaters can bear that in mind when decide on their NEW programs. How they keep trying and don't give up are also many reasons I can become a fan and keep watching. Skating beyond medals, be agenda free.

 

[coolboogie22]

It's easy to answer this question. COP kills figure skating by making less freedom for the skater and social network have kills everything in the world, twitter, facebook is a control for the skater who think that they needs to keeps a good reputation out the ice for to be a likeable skater on the ice. No more skaters can skate free because of this two things. The art is «death».

 

[Mathman]

In art, originality, creativity, exploration, authenticity, honesty, transcendence in self actualisation are far important indicators that separate great notable art from merely the most aesthetic one. If one is to assess the greatest art work of the past, they do not share a commonality as if they exist in a vacuum, but has a lot to do with context of the work, the conception, the journey, the cultural, social, philosophical impact that makes it an important, memorable and significant piece of work.

I think we are asking a lot of an amateur sports contest if we apply the same criteria to it that our art history and art appreciation classes tell us to look for when we visit the Louvre. Personally, Philistine that I am, I am satisfied if the skater moves gracefully and ends when the music does. That, a quad combo, and some of that there transcendence in self actualization, and I go home happy.

 

[OS]

I think we are asking a lot of an amateur sports contest if we apply the same criteria to it that our art history and art appreciation classes tell us to look for when we visit the Louvre. Personally, Philistine that I am, I am satisfied if the skater moves gracefully and ends when the music does. That, a quad combo, and some of that there transcendence in self actualization, and I go home happy.

Oh I agree with you, thus my suggestion, Design and Craft would be the accurate description of the sport under COP, instead of lump everything under Art.

Pure art is not possible nor do I expect it in a competitive sport. However it is important it clarify what is art, what is not. Knowledge, insights can all help us to better understand how to make the sport better. The best in the world should be held to a higher standard, and they should be burdened with the responsibility of pushing the boundaries of a sport that is both Art and Sport, even through Design and Craft.

Besides, improving artistry and seek transcendence can always offer skaters great comfort to seek interesting directions in their work and later in life. It pushes the sport to be more dynamic, interesting and culturally relevant. I'd suggest the survival and the thriving of the sports depends on making the work that are culturally relevant rather than getting a COP high score. Art can save the sport. There need to be a better balance.

 

[Blades of Passion]

By the way, nothing against you BoP, but I find that education video you posted 'Why is Modern art so bad' video totally hilarious.

It does have a certain element of closed-off conservatism to it. However, it raises VERY valid points about standards.

This is extremely important for the current state of figure skating because there is very little actual understanding and analysis of choreography and interpretation, and then relatively accurate scores, on the part of the ISU and the judges. Since there is no accountability and no consistency when it comes to assessing these artistic aspects of the programs, coaches and competitors now mainly focus on the technical. As such, programs right now are largely uninteresting and/or filled with ridiculous moments that hinder what could be otherwise excellent programs.

In theory, choreographers are in the best position of power to make a difference but rarely effective due to limited time constraint and resources, or in some cases, complacency and laziness takes over. Occasionally the skaters themselves can make a huge difference, but the reality is most skaters are far too young and lacking in the right talent, education, conviction, life experience to make the leap, to take complete ownership of their work, from choice of music, costumes, music edits, creative direction and have the technical proficiently, complete dedication and bravery to defend their work as well the delicate interpretative skill to fully realize its full potential.

This is very true...but it all comes down to the standards of the sport. Artistry is not being mandated and skaters are not being taught about the art of figure skating, much less constantly trained in it by their coaches. Look at 15 year old Michelle Kwan at 1996 Worlds. Her SP and LP are both masterpieces and she was able to achieve that specifically because they WORKED on it and she was constantly informed of it by her older peers. Michelle was told "you MUST artistic if you want to win." Skaters aren't being told that anymore. There's just a vague sense of needing to perform with energy while doing their endless transitions and turns.

-----

Let's look at Yu-Na Kim's 2014 Olympic program. There are many ways in which this program could be improved and still fit completely into the CoP requirements (and even be worth MORE points while staying completely inside Yu-Na's skillset):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgXKJvTVW9g

In the first section of the program we have a spin that doesn't work with the music. Why is this here? Her upside-down position in particular is completely wasted, it being a move that expresses astonishment or discombobulation, but is for some reason set against a languid section of music. This element should instead have been placed after the 3Lutz+3toe combination. Look at how well a flying camel entrance would have worked with the high piano note at 0:55 and how well her upside-side position would have gone with the swirling notes shortly afterward, followed by her sit spin echoing the descending notes that come next, and finally her gentle upright position being able to interpret the soft, sparkling notes at 1:08 and then exit from the spin and lead us into the next clause of the program.

Her 3Flip would come at the end of where the 3Sal+2Toe is currently placed and then instead of a spin we would have steps leading into a 2Axel+2Toe+2Loop, those two smaller jumps going with the shorter piercing notes of music and being able to quickly stop the momentum afterwards to come to a standstill and hit the pose before the footwork sequence.

The footwork is excellent and just needs one change - removing the slow illusion turn she does. It's not necessary for the level of the footwork and takes away from what should be a totally introspective section of the program. Following the footwork should be an ina bauer into 2Axel+3Toe instead of the 3Lutz. This combination makes more sense with the subtle progression of notes heard at 2:55, in comparison to doing a longer setup into a big solo 3Lutz, which is something that makes a more grand statement. That grand statement of a 3Lutz should instead come at 3:13 when the music is really swelling.

Now, after this section in the current program, we have her doing a 3Sal into a standstill pose (that latter part definitely being what is needed for the music) and then a layback which has absolutely nothing to do with the music whatsoever. After the layback is a very characteristic section of music that has her doing only some backcrossovers to build up speed for a spiral and the spiral is completely misplaced with the music. This all needs to be changed. After her 3Lutz in the revised program, she should instead be going into a spin rather than a jump. She can improve her current layback by adding an increase of speed after the first couple revolutions in the normal back position, which both works with the music at this point and allows her to drop the free leg and a create a much more pleasing shape. Plus it even increases the level of the spin (if she still wants to put in the haircutter at the end)! Using a spin here still allows her to come to a dramatic standstill at the end as well, hitting the halt of the music at 3:29.

After the spin will come the buildup for a 3Sal. Listen to the progression of the music starting at 3:41 and then the fluster of notes at 3:51. This is an absolutely PERFECT clause for building up a solo jump! After the jump, when a rather "dead" section of music follows, she can now appropriately use it to build up some speed and go into a footwork sequence. She will blaze across the ice and save the spiral position for the very end, where she will do a brief back catch-foot spiral with her free arm starting low and continually raising upward in sharp increments to interpret the very high, rapid piano notes. After the spiral will comes steps into a tano 2Lutz, which will land right with the splash of the music at 4:13 and be followed by a couple step-turns where her arms fling into the air on each turn.

This brings us up to the final spin of the program, which is TERRIBLY choreographed in the current program. Listen to the *zip!* and *zing!* of the music during this section. Her current spin does absolutely nothing whatsoever to interpret this music and goes on for too long with unnecessary positions, detracting from what should be an extremely exciting conclusion. Her new spin will start with a forward camel at 4:15 and then she will do a jump down into a sit spin, to accentuate the *zing!* of the music at 4:19. She will then change foot with a jump into a back sit spin, which will again accentuate the next *zing!* of music heard at 4:23. She will go into corckscrew position and then pull up into an upright cross leg spin, where she will be able to use a free arm at this point to accentuate the *zip* of music at 4:28.

This spin will end immediately after that *zip!* of music, which gives her a few extra precious seconds at the end of the program to add in additional tango movements, deepening the program and giving it more pizzaz here at the end.

-----

Now, all of those many nuances and alterations I just detailed -- these are the things that competitors should be considering and that judges should fully understand and be rewarding or docking points for. Every movement should have purpose and work with the music. If a skater does a useless spin position it should IMMEDIATELY count against their choreography (and probably interpretation) score. If a skater does a spin that keeps going on even when the music is changing or has positions that don't reflect the exact nature of the music, it should IMMEDIATELY count against their interpretation score. If transitional movement in a program doesn't create some kind of idea/emotion or form unity with other movements when looking at the program as a whole, it should IMMEDIATELY count against the choreography score. If a skater does some kind of transitional movement that doesn't bring out the character of the music, but instead is simply there to say "hey, look at my transition and give me a point for it", it should IMMEDIATELY count against the interpretation score.

Programs right now are comprised of SO many useless spin positions, meaningless footwork, random distracting "transitional" movements, and misplaced jumps. There is virtually NO consideration or understanding on the part of the judges, hence there is virtually no consideration or understanding on the part of the skaters. Thus, the skating becomes artificial/boring and people stop caring about the entire sport.

The entire standard of artistry must be raised.

 

[Mathman]

(Responding to os168's post #125)

I think that when figure skating fans say that a performance was "artistic" they mean that it was pretty, and, for whatever reason, that it touched their hearts. I have no quarrel with this informal use of the word in this context. "Craft" is a fine word. Another useful description of figure skating is that it is a "discipline" -- one that combines athletic derring-do with graceful movement set to music.

Touches your heart, that is to say, or else makes you throw your hands in the air, and wave 'em like you just don't care.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52oNakVqT3M

 

[yyyskate]

BoP, no offense,but that is your version of perfect choreo of Adios, it is like give a same theme, 2 artists can produce 2 completely different products, with completely different directions but amazing in their own ways. I dont wanna discuss Yuna's adios here any longer, but IMO, the phrasing of technical elements including jumping passes and spins are superb even genius in this program.

EDIT: a few thoughts regarding this topic, I think COP restricted certain variety/creativity but also encouraged substances (and substances certainly is not a bad thing), at least majority COP programs are relatively busy compare to old programs, which is not necessary artistic but certainly more eye catching to casual spectators. I dont think the damage to art is all due to the system. but how people approach the system. If I remember it correctly, at the inception of COP, choreographers like Lori and David Wilson who pay attention to the details of music, who emphasize on meaningful transitions between elements, etc. started to get job and created many great programs. that actually is moving towards an artistic healthy direction.
However, currently, it seems like, it is only points driven, so there are many short cuts to get the points... for example, second half bonus, quantity of transitions, tano/rippon variations are accountable points getters. whether those arrangement serve any music/character purpose is subjective/unaccountable and seems only depends on the power of federation, skater reputation, music popularity and all that .... it is sad...
But, under any system, there will always be some pure artists that stick to their individual original artistic pursuit, and it will always be rare and precious. also there will always be some people choose the shortest route in order to win ....

 

[Interspectator]

I think we are asking a lot of an amateur sports contest if we apply the same criteria to it that our art history and art appreciation classes tell us to look for when we visit the Louvre. Personally, Philistine that I am, I am satisfied if the skater moves gracefully and ends when the music does. That, a quad combo, and some of that there transcendence in self actualization, and I go home happy.

Indeed. I also like the usage of 'Design' and 'Craft'. Artistic, but not art.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Programs right now are comprised of SO many useless spin positions, meaningless footwork, random distracting "transitional" movements, and misplaced jumps. There is virtually NO consideration or understanding on the part of the judges, hence there is virtually no consideration or understanding on the part of the skaters. Thus, the skating becomes artificial/boring and people stop caring about the entire sport.

I disagree. The technical elements should be the most important part in a competitive event. Laying out the program should take into account adequate preparation for the elements and the skater's preferred order of doing the elements. To say there is no consideration or understanding of artistry is an overstatement. Could the programs be better? Of course. To me, all of the top skaters do a good job of interpreting music (maybe with the exception of Gracie). Obsessing over whether a transition fits perfectly with the music will only lead to even more controversial results and give judges an excuse to manipulate marks over subjective program features.

 

[Blades of Passion]

yyyskate, that's exactly what I mean by artistic standards in this thread. You just provided 0 reasoning. There are very clear instances in which the movement fails the music. That final spin of Yu-Na's would never be choreographed like that by any decent choreographer, if they had more freedom. It's overly restrictive CoP rules that dictate much of the movement in that program, not objective artistic excellent. However, it's not only CoP rules which created the poor choreographic choices in that program, but rather Yu-Na's team simply copy+pasting an extremely similar structure to what she had the prior year, even though her music was now completely different.

BoP, no offense,but that is your version of perfect choreo of Adios.

Actually, no, it is my version of the ideal choreography specifically for that music for a 2013-2014 season competitive program for Yu-Na Kim. :agree:

 

[el henry]

(Responding to os168's post #125)

I think that when figure skating fans say that a performance was "artistic" they mean that it was pretty, and, for whatever reason, that it touched their hearts. I have no quarrel with this informal use of the word in this context. "Craft" is a fine word. Another useful description of figure skating is that it is a "discipline" -- one that combines athletic derring-do with graceful movement set to music.

Touches your heart, that is to say, or else makes you throw your hands in the air, and wave 'em like you just don't care.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52oNakVqT3M

I had never seen this one; thanks Mathman. This and Kurt Browning's Brick House takes me back in the day. And makes me happy, which is what good skating should do....

 

[yyyskate]

like I said, I wont argue anymore regarding Yuna's Adios, enough been said, reviews, critics, analysis floating...and will be more... it is the same structure, but the structure absolutely served music interpretation purpose and absolutely many creative ideas(artistically, especially music interpretation wise) that I have never seen in Yuna's programs. And comparing to others, I think Yuna and her team is absolutely honest, invested and put their heart and soul in their work.
I am not arguing with you, therefore, 0 reasoning, I just state my opinion.
PS: Patrick's Elegie is also a genius choreographed program, just saying.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I disagree. The technical elements should be the most important part in a competitive event. Laying out the program should take into account adequate preparation for the elements and the skater's preferred order of doing the elements.

If a skater is only capable of doing their technical elements in a specific order, then that shows a deficiency in their technical/competitive ability, now doesn't it? Furthermore, when you are fully invested into the artistic aspect of a program, it makes the technical more difficult! Obviously there are a few reasonable considerations, such as needing a good amount of time to recover from an extremely fast scratch spin if you plan one in your program, and not trying to do a Quad jump towards the end of your program (although if someone WAS able to do that, it should be worth more...and it currently doesn't get rewarded AT ALL in the scoring system).

Obsessing over whether a transition fits perfectly with the music will only lead to even more controversial results and give judges an excuse to manipulate marks over subjective program features.

No it won't. That's exactly what they should be doing. How else do you think Choreography and Interpretation are supposed to be evaluated? Your current argument essentially states that Choreography and Interpretation should be completely removed from competitive figure skating.

Furthermore, creating programs that actually care about pacing and following the music and creating an entire artistic work of movement are what the sport needs. Without it, the sport is marginalized.

 

[Interspectator]

If we think of art as something that can be judged, then who will judge it? How will judges be educated to find it? Yes, things are judged in the art world but controversies continue. There ARE disagreements of major proportions about the degree and worth of certain kinds of art, how they are interpreted, etc.
Giving more weight (points wise) to 'art' in a program has the potential to create even bigger controversies and greater confusion than before.
Another slight problem:
A lot of art is 'proven' because it stood the test of time. And we all know that judging a figure skating program must be done in a very short time.
We can look back on programs of the past and judge them for artistic merit a lot more easily than we can judge a program happening in front of us within a few minutes.

BOP thinks that without more emphasis on 'art' the sport will become more marginalized...I think that if there is more emphasis on 'art' the sport will become more marginalized.

If, as os168 says, art can be recognized, by the "well informed however, who has a specific well laid out contextual framework of critical thinking, able to identify genuine artistic merits should be fairly easily to spot vs imitations and counterfeits. Those with the right knowledge, training, experience and qualifications should all able to do that, and able to separate personal preferences vs genuine artistic merit in the larger historical and cultural context." how many of these people also watch figure skating?

Maybe even fewer than those who watch it now.

 

[karne]

BOP, with all due respect (and you too os168), this thread is EXACTLY why folks in the art community are stereotyped as stuck up arrogant snobs.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I personally think many people confuse over dramatic skating with being artistic. Obviously YMMV but I know where I stand. As soon as someone has weaker skating skills they get bombarded with negative posts. Guess what? Skating skills and even execution falls under PCS scores which to me disproves the common belief that PCS is a mark of an "artistic" skater. These are technical marks that are just dressed up nice and pretty as Mathman would likely say.

I can enjoy programs of the past and believe me when I say I wish a high lofty double was rewarded better. I prefer a crisper simple yet beautiful jump more than about any quad I've ever seen. I just don't believe figure skating is dying. It's a new generation and a new game. As with music the times change and some things are lost in the shuffle. I think it's foolish to believe nothing good has come of it and regardless of its fanbase...the sport is growing and we have many young budding artists among us doing their best to interpret and control delicate movements on the ice. What we consider to be a moving experience may be yesterday's news to someone else.

 

[ice coverage]

.... this thread is EXACTLY why folks in the art community are stereotyped as stuck up arrogant snobs.

:agree: Yes, the (pseudo-)intellectual snobbery in some posts in this thread is counterproductive, IMO.

 

[OS]

Well now that is interesting... thanks for this. This is a program you awarded the highest choreography mark and interpretation mark at the competition is that correct? I think it goes without saying, unapologetically I happen to think it is the best choreographed and fully realised program at Sochi.

I am genuinely curious to see how the changes you have prescribed can look like. Any chance you can edit one together. You should try to get more work, to be more effective in your mission

While I do agree with you that 'Design' can be improved, but Design unlike art is not a never ending process. The best Design one can hope to achieve is between then till the deadline. Perhaps that is all Wilson can achieve within the time frame he has. If he had been with in the same geographic vicinity and see the program as often as he used to, he may be able to perfect it as it progresses, as he had some opportunity to do so with Les Miserable in Canada.

Lets go over the changes you suggested.

In the first section of the program we have a spin that doesn't work with the music. Why is this here? Her upside-down position in particular is completely wasted, it being a move that expresses astonishment or discombobulation, but is for some reason set against a languid section of music. This element should instead have been placed after the 3Lutz+3toe combination. Look at how well a flying camel entrance would have worked with the high piano note at 0:55 and how well her upside-side position would have gone with the swirling notes shortly afterward, followed by her sit spin echoing the descending notes that come next, and finally her gentle upright position being able to interpret the soft, sparkling notes at 1:08 and then exit from the spin and lead us into the next clause of the program.

Spins that don't go with the music. Are you referring to 1min.34 with the bandaneon trilling winding down languidly closing the quieter introspective section of the music, before it quickly escalate and burst into the next faster rhythmic section, expanding the same bandaneon motif? If so, I disagree. The placement of spins between musical mood changes provide an excellent point of mood transition using spin as a break, Wilson have done this to great effect. Had it been at 0.55, it would have break away from the dainty music phrasing by the piano as if it is one languid music sighs, leading to the 3lz3T. You are certainly welcome to have preferences, but I don't consider your suggestion a better option based on these specific music construct. (Btw watching the timing of these jump landing to the music is pretty awesome)

Her 3Flip would come at the end of where the 3Sal+2Toe is currently placed and then instead of a spin we would have steps leading into a 2Axel+2Toe+2Loop, those two smaller jumps going with the shorter piercing notes of music and being able to quickly stop the momentum afterwards to come to a standstill and hit the pose before the footwork sequence.

It s a little hard for me to imagine how that would ACTUALLY work without seeing/hearing how it can work with the music, especially consider you are suggesting to put the flip at the end of 3sal+2toe. To reshuffle the jump instead of a spin for the musically quieter moments that is suppose to lead to an important rhythmic changes, with strong mood transition doesn't seem to have the current buildup for dramatic impact.

It is like: exciting, exciting, exciting, exciting;
instead of : EXCITING, excited, simmering down now to establish languidity, pause, then snap right back out for up swing mood changes, getting excited again...

The footwork is excellent and just needs one change - removing the slow illusion turn she does. It's not necessary for the level of the footwork and takes away from what should be a totally introspective section of the program. Following the footwork should be an ina bauer into 2Axel+3Toe instead of the 3Lutz. This combination makes more sense with the subtle progression of notes heard at 2:55, in comparison to doing a longer setup into a big solo 3Lutz, which is something that makes a more grand statement. That grand statement of a 3Lutz should instead come at 3:13 when the music is really swelling.

Totally introspective is certainly your interpretation, but the contrasting of bandaneon and piano suggesting an interesting relationship beyond the obvious. Both masculine and feminine, it can be as layered, nuanced as one hears it, not necessarily just introspective. How one can be conditioned to act on the outside may not necessarily be the same feeling as on the inside. There's both conflict and contrasts in the music description. In terms of self actualisation, I imagine it is similar to what you say and what you mean are not always the same thing, or how you feel etc.

I suppose it is up to personal preference. While you are clearly acknowledged on the requirement levels and don't think it is needed. For me, the 2min30 illusion spin succinctly underlined the subtle piano vibrato without too much time wasting, the next piano interpolation were immediately highlighted using her upper body movement in a gesture as if to hush up the audience/judges. It has balance. It is both in and outwards.

... I don't have time to go over the rest of your post since it is almost 4am in the UK, but will try the rest tomorrow.

I think it goes without saying but I do agree with the standard of artistry for the sport in general can all be raised, more musically honest, meaningful with clearer and deliberate choices. Choreographed and interpreted as appropriate. However, I am genuinely puzzled why you picked Adios Nonino... If I remember correctly, you did reward it with the highest PCS marks at Sochi? Oh boy if Adios have that many problems as you have claimed, then we are all in trouble!

 

[OS]

BOP, with all due respect (and you too os168), this thread is EXACTLY why folks in the art community are stereotyped as stuck up arrogant snobs.

What... as oppose to yobs who automatically reject opinions different from their own?

They can stereotype art community as stuck up arrogant snobs all they like, same with classical music, yet this sport feature all these things prominently... so what is your problem