The Death of Figure Skating as Art

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I agree about the pretentiousness. Especially when it's so subjective.

I find Yu Na's spins fine and I can appreciate them even if they don't match the exact phrasing of music - after all, Adios wasn't pre-emptively composed for Yu Na's FS... Yu Na's FS was choreographed to Adios.

The worst is when people dissect our sport to a spin not hitting music to the second or having a position that the skater is comfortable with but "does nothing" for a fan. A skater is an athlete before they are an artist, and they view their programs as a general map. They do not give a damn about ensuring every single moment/element matches the music. They care about the program as a whole and performing to their comfort and potential.

Yu Na's final spin isn't to one's liking or exactly matches the music = death of figure skating as an art. Tango movements with pizzazz = Picasso on ice. That 3-jump combo should have been placed here... program ruined! Like.... really?!

 

[Interspectator]

I agree about the pretentiousness. Especially when it's so subjective.

I find Yu Na's spins fine.

The worst is when people dissect our sport to a spin not hitting music to the second or having a position that the skater is comfortable with but "does nothing" for a fan who doesn't know any better. A skater is an athlete before they are an artist, and they view their programs as a general map. They do not give a damn about ensuring every single moment/element matches the music. They care about the program as a whole.

Yu Na's final spin isn't to ones liking or exactly matches the music = death of figure skating as an art. Tango movements with pizzazz = Picasso on ice. Like.... really?!

Good Lord...I don't want to see Picasso on ice...ever.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It s a little hard for me to imagine how that would ACTUALLY work without seeing/hearing how it can work with the music, especially consider you are suggesting to put the flip at the end of 3sal+2toe. To reshuffle the jump instead of a spin for the musically quieter moments that is suppose to lead to an important rhythmic changes, with strong mood transition doesn't seem to have the current buildup for dramatic impact.

The transition is made in coming to the standstill and then the sudden turn. Having that spin there doesn't add any particular dynamic to it. Rather, it distracts exactly because we are looking at all of these spin positions which have nothing to do with the music. You can still execute a jump in a "quieter moment" and then do that exact same planned standstill and quick turn. I specifically picked the 2Axel+2Toe+2Loop for that spot because those jumps are daintier and there is naturally less flow out of that jumping pass to begin with, so it fits excellently into coming to a choreographic standstill shortly afterward.

However, I am genuinely puzzled why you picked Adios Nonino... If I remember correctly, you did reward it with the highest PCS marks at Sochi? Oh boy if Adios have that many problems as you have claimed, then we are all in trouble!

I believe the program as it stands deserved the highest score for choreography and interpretation, yes. There is still a lot of room for improvement, though. It is indeed troublesome for the sport when this is the best offering we are being given.

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The worst is when people dissect our sport to a spin not hitting music.

No it is not the worst, at all. Exactly the opposite. The marriage of movement to the music is precisely what makes people really care about the sport, even if on a subconscious level. I mean, most audience members don't specifically look at programs and think through them. They just let the program wash over them. People subconsciously feel when there is a disconnect, though. Hence why so many people now look at skating and just shrug and why virtually everyone I know, both involved in skating or solely a "fan", never actually watches skating anymore. It's hardly just my personal experience and viewpoint either. The receipts don't lie. Skating is making barely any money these days.

A skater is an athlete before they are an artist, and they view their programs as a general map. They do not give a damn about ensuring every single moment/element matches the music.

This is a joke. Competitors in the past USED to care about every moment and element matching the music. Programs were very much planned around that, even frequently saving very difficult jumps like Triple Axels for very late in programs to hit a huge climax. Now competitors don't care very much, both because they aren't rewarded for it enough and because nobody is really teaching it to them and demanding higher artistic excellence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPRcajUQrM

This program would not be the complete brilliance that is if Kwan and her team weren't being rewarded for it and weren't trying to so masterfully orchestrate it. They set out to get the highest "second mark" possible to win competitions and that is exactly what they achieved.

No program from 2008 onward touches this (nor Lu Chen's or Kwan's at 1996 Worlds, nor Lu Chen's at 1998 Olympics, nor Michelle's Lamento d'Ariane debuted in 1998). Only Mao Asada at her 2010 Nationals and Yu-Na Kim at 2013 Worlds even come close. That's 2 performances in a 7 year time span only even coming close, in a sport which should be progressing (especially because of information being so much more readily accessible now), as compared to 5 performances in a 3 year span in the 90's.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Sorry, Kwan's second lutz and then the spiral should be matching the phrasing of the music better. The spiral was pretty basic and should have been more of a highlight. The short combo with the 3L sequenced with a 2T also doesn't go match the music nor add anything to the program that a 3L-2T would. Program ruined. :sarcasm: (Obvious sarcasm, but it goes to show that even Kwan's arguably best LP can be nitpicked for failing to match every single nuance of the music... But it doesn't diminish the overall impeccable quality. It's also a hugely unreasonable expectation to want skaters to match Kwan - most of why Lyra Angelica is pure art is that it's KWAN performing it... Even if Asada had the exact same choreo, she couldn't pull it off the way Kwan did.

Question: if figure skating has seemingly died as an art, and skaters don't choreograph their programs exactly how you would like them to, and jumps/URs aren't assessed the way you think they should be, why are you still watching? Rather masochistic of you, no?

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's funny how you generally only have something petty to say whenever real criticism and intellectual rigor is brought into a conversation. Her "basic" spiral is not that simple at all when you consider the extension, speed, and strength of edge. It creates a very clean and pleasing line, with an abundance of outward emotion, which is exactly what this music calls for. Her 3Loop, step, 2Toe sequence is quite a nuanced and welcomed choreographic choice. I've actually said before that I think 3Loop+2Toe is the most stilted jump combination a skater can do, because it hinders the pure edge effect and body alignment of the Loop with such a minor and pointed picking jump afterward. That step inbetween in Kwan's program softens it and allows the Loop to have an extra split second of ride-out on the landing, which keeps the purity of the jump intact.

I don't see any truth in your words about the second Lutz not matching the phrasing of the music; it certainly does. She perhaps could have executed it a half second later for absolutely perfect musical timing, but that is such a minor nitpick when looking at a program of this brilliance. If only that could be the biggest flaw in many programs we see, what a wonderful state the sport would be in!!

It's also a hugely unreasonable expectation to want skaters to match Kwan - most of why Lyra Angelica is pure art is that it's KWAN performing it... Even if Asada had the exact same choreo, she couldn't pull it off the way Kwan did.

There is very probably a causation here, though. Asada was not taught to perform at the same level as Kwan, nor was she competitively driven to do so in the same degree that Kwan was. She came up in a time where focusing on all kinds of additional footwork and spins and spirals and jump combinations was "necessary". All of our lives are limited by time. If we are spending time on something then we are automatically not spending that time on something else. The very, very best thing we can do is try to teach each other in order to best utilize the time we have.

If you think about it, the ideal human evolution would be all thought being shared nearly instantaneously as a collective. From this, all of human kind could quickly consider and come to understand numerous varying viewpoints, until soon a universal understanding comes to pass and many things which were formerly subjective would infact become objective. Which isn't to say that personal choice would be vacant, but rather that everyone would be so thoroughly in tune with each other that all pettiness would be gone and it would essentially only be "good choices" to ponder. Of course by then we will probably exist as "ageless" energy floating around in some form.

Okay, I'm rambling a bit there, but the point is that mass education and higher standards of critical thinking is of the utmost importance.

 

[gkelly]

I had never seen this one; thanks Mathman. This and Kurt Browning's Brick House takes me back in the day. And makes me happy, which is what good skating should do....

But since they're show programs, they have nothing to do with the question of how various rules or judging systems affect the artistic level of competitive skating.

Competitors in the past USED to care about every moment and element matching the music. Programs were very much planned around that, even frequently saving very difficult jumps like Triple Axels for very late in programs to hit a huge climax. Now competitors don't care very much, both because they aren't rewarded for it enough and because nobody is really teaching it to them and demanding higher artistic excellence.

Some competitors in the past used to care about every moment and element matching the music. Some didn't care at all. And most cared about showing some effort to connect their movement to the music, but how often in each program and how much they were doing it for artistic purpose or just to prove to the judges they had sufficient control to do so and to check that box for the judging criteria varied.

Same is true today.

If you want to make an argument that the percentage has changed, about trends, you need much bigger sample sizes. If you just choose one example from each era, you can tilt your argument in any direction you want. Why not compare Tatiana Malinina vs. Ashley Wagner? Or Timothy Goebel vs. Denis Ten?

It might be interesting to compare a handful of programs from skaters at similar levels from two different years and look for trends in the level of attention to musical phrasing and nuance, body line, program themes, emotional connection, etc. etc.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Agreed. You'll find several competitors in the past who were not artistically inclined but who people found very exciting to watch - Harding, Bonaly, Stojko. To say that skaters don't approach their programs with an artistically critical level is bs.

I think what BoP finding to be the real issue is coming to terms with the fact that CoP rewards higher difficulty which is tilting the scales more in favour of "less artistic" skaters who try more ambitious programs and are able to execute them. As a result, "artistic" skaters have to up their game. To say Kim's Olympic LP is a sad state of the sport is quite a sad statement itself as it denigrates her awesome performance, along with those of Mao and Kostner and even Sotnikova who was technically great. These performances might not connect with you the way Kwan's did but for many people they did.

 

[Mathman]

The thing about Michelle Kwan's Lyra Angelica program is that nothing is rushed, there is no shoe-horning in of busy-work that mars so many programs now. The pacing of the elements seems (in retrospect) inevitable, yet in the execution, pleasing beyond expectation.

 

[yyyskate]

For technique elements in figure skating(specially jumps) to perfectly match music note is very difficult. because, technique elements are a fixed number of body movement tied together and it will always have the fixed timing every time (the jump itself), however the music varies. that is one liberty that figure skating choreographer dont have compare to dance. Most situation, responsive choreographers will pay attention to the phrasing of the whole jumping pass or spin, such as a jump or a spin arranged within a music phrase, for example, jump landing is right on the note of music, spinning phrase to a music passage that is matching to the spinning speed. That is already precious, a lot of times, just use a beautiful/easy to the ear background music and finish tech elements one after another with little reference to music as all (and usually people dont care, because music itself is beautiful).

In rare situations, choreographers really put all their effort into how to choreo tech element (including how to edit music, like CSG said, music is not composed for figure skating) so that, every single moves within a tech elements matches music, and Yuna's adios is as good as you can get in that department. I wont go into details to analyze Yuna's adios again, I just want to point out a few: jump revolution in air match music, leg swing match music, toe pick match music, every single spin position change (speed change) match music...
all this is just about timing, and there are also concept/artistic diversity/mood/texture/color that shines genius in Yuna's adios choreo.
Yuna's execution is not 100% perfect. but still great enough on that night (OG ice) to remain as a master piece in history. only time can tell.
I also want to provide several great examples of how choreograph tech elements down to every single move here.
Patrick/Jeffery Elegie duet SBS 2A, every move in that jump (include bending of knees) matched music note.
Yuzuru's new SP, spread eagle + 3A + spread eagle.
example about utilize the tension of jumps to reflect the tension of music
Patrick's 3A in his Aranjuez and La Bohème.
zijun's 3loop in her sleeping beauty.
....
....
and there are also other examples.
watch David Wilson/Jeffery Buttle and Lori's program, You will often find those features.
I just wanna mention patrick's step sequence in his Elegie here (pure genius )

and there is a whole other department about acting, theme, character/role,... and I don't think I have enough education or life experience to discuss.

another thing about art is solely depend on the skater. is the skater a natural born artist, a star. and only very few skaters have that quality...

EDIT: wanna add that some genius choreographers even properly use the sound of blade sorta as an instrument to add another dimension to their craft or art.
the vehicle of figure skating as an art form, is body movement, music (kinda like dance/acting/theatre), but it also has its unique media which is ice and blade. that any other performance art form dont have, and how to fully utilized that unique feature of skating to fulfill your artistic imagination is every figure skating artist's "job" and perhaps life-long adventure.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The thing about Michelle Kwan's Lyra Angelica program is that nothing is rushed, there is no shoe-horning in of busy-work that mars so many programs now. The pacing of the elements seems (in retrospect) inevitable, yet in the execution, pleasing beyond expectation.

Agreed. But a lot of that is attributed to choreographer and how Kwan presents it. Artistry is dependent on the skater, and difficulty parameters of a system shouldn't grossly affect that. If the 90's pre-CoP were the ideal framework for figure skating, with everyone playing under the same rules (i.e. spins and footwork don't have to be long, transitions not as important), why haven't we seen 100 Lyra Angelica-type performances from other skaters?

My point is, the prerogative of skaters can still be to create artistic, meaningful pieces, however the difficulty has increased thanks to CoP. It all comes down to personal preference in the end. For me, Sotnikova's flying camel is more impressive than Kwan's 2-rotation flying camel, even if the latter matches the music (obviously, because it's shorter).

Competitive figure skating has artistic qualities, but it's fundamentally a sport. Other "performance" type sports have done the same. Take the women's floor exercise in gymnastics for example. For years there were just 3 tumbling passes in a routine and lots of dance moves for the sake of artistry. But then the sport evolved to 4 passes and more athletic moves incorporated versus artistic posing/pirouettes. You see it other apparatus like uneven bars and balance beam where difficulty has been increased at the expense of aesthetics/artistry. But it's important in the sport moving forward. It's also important to emphasize the importance of other elements, not just jumps.

I do agree that footwork sequences aren't quite right in their requirements, and spins can look laboured (although to be fair, I was more annoyed by 2-rotation spins in the 80's/90's), but that is dependent on the skater opting for what they think looks good. I don't think the system is as much of a problem so much as skaters choosing positions/jumps that don't work well for them. An awkward spin position is a skater's choice -- there are plenty of ways to earn a level. And footwork levels aren't so disparate in points from level 2 to 3 to 4 that a skater is forced to attempt level 4.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Agreed. You'll find several competitors in the past who were not artistically inclined but who people found very exciting to watch - Harding, Bonaly, Stojko. To say that skaters don't approach their programs with an artistically critical level is bs.

I agree. While those three may not be "artistic," I did find Stojko and Bonaly to be able to interpret music well with their bodies. Bonaly's SP and Stojko's LP at the 1994 Olympic show that they understand music and can move in a way that captures its mood.

 

[Interspectator]

I agree. While those three may not be "artistic," I did find Stojko and Bonaly to be able to interpret music well with their bodies. Bonaly's SP and Stojko's LP at the 1994 Olympic show that they understand music and can move in a way that captures its mood.

Stojko and Surya were always so exciting to watch. Though now I look back and find them lacking in some 'PCS' areas, when I was little, and didn't care about that, it was great!

 

[Mathman]

(Replying to CanadianSkaterGuy's post #150)

I guess so. I do not seem to be as enamored of "sports moving forward" as many people are. American football players used to weight 200 pounds. Now they weigh 300. It is true that today's 300 pounders could beat the stars of the past, but I am no more enthusiastic a football fan now than I was then.

In track and field it used to be a big deal for someone to run 100 meters in 10 seconds. Now, with modern training methods and better steroids they can shave a few tenths of a second off that. Good for them, but track meets are no more exciting now than then.

Girl gymnasts now do four tumbling passes instead of three, at most throwing in a half-hearted perfunctory pose between passes for old times' sake. There is no pretense of a "program" and it is not clear why they play music in the background at all. The sport has evolved. Here's Olympic champ Gabby Douglas, age 16.

http://www.sikids.com/sites/default...s/images/gabrielle-Douglas.op3v-11259-mid.jpg

 

[treeloving]

(Replying to CanadianSkaterGuy's post #150)

I guess so. I do not seem to be as enamored of "sports moving forward" as many people are. American football players used to weight 200 pounds. Now they weigh 300. It is true that today's 300 pounders could beat the stars of the past, but I am no bigger a football fan now than I was then.

In track and field it used to be a big deal for someone to run 100 meters in 10 seconds. Now, with modern training methods and better steroids they can shave a few tenths of a second off that. Good for them, but track meets are no more exciting now than then.

Girl gymnasts now do four tumbling passes instead of three, at most throwing in a half-hearted perfunctory pose between passes for old times' sake. There is no pretense of a "program" and it is not clear why they play music in the background at all. The sport has evolved. Here's Olympic champ Gabby Douglas.

http://www.sikids.com/sites/default...s/images/gabrielle-Douglas.op3v-11259-mid.jpg

I love this argument! It is not about what they can do but about the feeling they brought, different people have different preference I guess.

I think this thread is really interesting and I am a bit surprise to see many "art is subjective" argument. Of course, art is subjective, but to deny any objectivity in art is almost denying any arguments.

I still believe that there are some aspect of art that could be objectively discussed. Otherwise, art school should not existed. For example, it could easily be argued that current artistic gymnastic program has much less artistry level compare to the past.

Anyhow, I wonder if the pre-cop programs on average are that much more artistic than program under cop? There may be some really wonderful program, but there are so many boring program under 6.0 as well.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

(Replying to CanadianSkaterGuy's post #150)

I guess so. I do not seem to be as enamored of "sports moving forward" as many people are. American football players used to weight 200 pounds. Now they weigh 300. It is true that today's 300 pounders could beat the stars of the past, but I am no more enthusiastic a football fan now than I was then.

In track and field it used to be a big deal for someone to run 100 meters in 10 seconds. Now, with modern training methods and better steroids they can shave a few tenths of a second off that. Good for them, but track meets are no more exciting now than then.

Girl gymnasts now do four tumbling passes instead of three, at most throwing in a half-hearted perfunctory pose between passes for old times' sake. There is no pretense of a "program" and it is not clear why they play music in the background at all. The sport has evolved. Here's Olympic champ Gabby Douglas, age 16.

http://www.sikids.com/sites/default...s/images/gabrielle-Douglas.op3v-11259-mid.jpg

I think there definitely is a "program" aspect to it, albeit with less posing and histrionics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjoDzK0siaM The event is much more athletic. Even the men's event has moved up to 5 tumbling passes - notably the first quad twist was landed last year by Kenzo Shirai.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Anyhow, I wonder if the pre-cop programs on average are that much more artistic than program under cop? There may be some really wonderful program, but there are so many boring program under 6.0 as well.

Well, that's the hole in the argument. There are a lot of boring programs under 6.0, which many wouldn't deem artistic. There are several programs today which would be considered more artistic than programs in the past. I think the opportunity for creativity is diminished with CoP demands, but the opportunity for artistry isn't diminished to a point where one can argue that skating is dead as an art.

Figure skating is still the most artistic sport out there right now (certainly the most artistic male sport... and as for women, I'd still consider it more artistic than rhythmic gymnastics and synchro swimming which themselves have had increasing emphasis on difficult elements). The fact that so much of a skater's score is dependent on how they express themselves shows that good choreography/interpretation/expression is still significant, and obviously skaters have a world of music to interpret, and we see new genres/themes explored more often now than the usual classical war horses (well, at least marginally more often).

Maybe the problem with CoP is that it went straight into the difficulty deep end. Instead of gradual attempts to get skaters to do more challenging spins/footwork, they've added in requirements that make elements look laboured and not as aesthetic for the majority of skaters who can't achieve that fine balance between difficult and beautiful. As for transitions, well... again, that's the skater's prerogative how many to incorporate. I don't think transitions clutter a program, assuming the skater can maintain their flow across the ice while executing them. If anything it adds more visual interest than the skater just stroking around the whole time.

 

[Mathman]

I think there definitely is a "program" aspect to it, albeit with less posing and histrionics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjoDzK0siaM

The event is much more athletic.

Very impressive. Still, I enjoyed this one just as much. She conquered the Western World. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqZoYW57l0k

 

[Interspectator]

I think there definitely is a "program" aspect to it, albeit with less posing and histrionics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjoDzK0siaM The event is much more athletic. Even the men's event has moved up to 5 tumbling passes - notably the first quad twist was landed last year by Kenzo Shirai.

As an avid watcher of gymnastics, my appreciation for the 'art' of gymnastics is completely different than my love of figure skating. I look for entirely different things in gymnastics.
I love the simple, clean and graceful elements. making the hardest flips look easy. Being 'perfect'.
Of course there is actually a lot of variation in the styles of gymnastics as well.
There are those who risk the hardest elements and are subsequently a bit messy and win anyway. There are more 'showy' elements that gymnasts attempt.
The difference between Hambuchen and Ryohei Kato for instance.
And then there is Uchimura, who is an alien and whom no one has beaten in 5 years.

But there is still, dare I say it? 'art' in gymnastics, even though it has changed so much from the time of Nadia Comaneci.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

While I think a skater like Serafima Sakhanovich is extremely artistic and to be honest, the perfect blend of athletic and artistic for me, I've seen others post that she has jarring motions and unnecassary choreography that they find tasteless. I however completely disagree and crave the exciting blend of sport and theater that she presents. Is there even a a right or wrong here and if so how can this be realized fairly. As I've said before I can certainly appreciate skaters from earlier eras but I'm with gkelly in wondering if the ratio of artistically pleasing skaters is any lower today than at any other point. Laetetia Hubert and Tim Goebel come to mind as examples of skaters I would not prefer to see over today's stars. I'd be curious to see a comparison of Junior skaters from the 80's and 90's vs from the 2000's.

Maybe one day I will go back to my home town and find a McDonalds or Taco Bell in the field I grew up playing in and I'll understand this a little better.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I agree. While those three may not be "artistic," I did find Stojko and Bonaly to be able to interpret music well with their bodies. Bonaly's SP and Stojko's LP at the 1994 Olympic show that they understand music and can move in a way that captures its mood.

Exactly. Stojko's/Bonaly's programs were artistically inferior, but they generated huge interest in the sport -- notably for pushing the technical envelope, and for their powerful performances. As Sandra Bezic said, that's the great thing about skating -- there's room for all types of skaters in this sport.

I got a great deal of excitement watching Stojko and Bonaly skate, and never once was I thinking -- oh, well that spin wasn't quite on the music, or what was she thinking jumping straight up into that 2A to start her program? I agree that both were still able to capture a mood even though they lacked the musicality and finesse of other skaters.

Art being something subjective means that people appreciate various aspects of it. Somebody might hate the colour of a painting, while others might hate the brush strokes, while others consider neither in their appreciation of it.