The Death of Figure Skating as Art

[karne]

A dominant US ladies champion is only a means to an end.

And this is EXACTLY the problem.

The majority of Westerners - and yes, I am including my own country in this - are too STUPID to appreciate the athleticism in figure skating or the strength it takes to control movements into grace and poise. They think male figure skaters are "feminine" and they think that is a bad thing. And so they get fixated on this stupid idea that ONLY a lady can be a star, figure skating can ONLY be popular if a lady is champion, and so on. Rather than appreciating their men, too.

 

[Icey]

Has figure skating ever been acknowledged as an "art"? I would say , no.

 

[Coltrocks12]

Who says skating as an "art" is dead? There are still wonderful artistic performances in every skating discipline. Defining what art is, is as ambiguous as defining what a pioneer is, so we may get ourselves in trouble on this thread somewhat. I think that good artistry comes from a skater who is dialed into the music. They connect to the music, to a partner (if in pairs or dance) and to the audience. They take the music and the story (which includes creative elements, costume, performance etc) and transport the audience member, judge or viewer to another place and time. They time all of their elements to the music and step in perfect time to the rythym of the music. One of my favorite programs was Matthew Savoie's Joplin number. Most skaters try to take Joplin way too fast trying to move with every plinky note of the piano. The beat actually is a slow sort of swing back and forth. He took it easy through the footwork and bounced it back and forth. It took me back in time in an instant. I love Meryl and Charlie's Notre Dame de Paris number because they had an incredible connection to the music and to each other and made me feel like I was watching Esmeralda and Quasimodo. I love the bluesy rock number of Ina and Zimmerman's "Shine On You Crazy Diamond." My favorite ladies program is still Michelle Kwan's short dance to Peter Gabriel's "The Feeling Begins." The costumes, the moves, the elements, and the footwork all came together and transported me into the music and feeling of the program. I must admit it was hard for me to catch on to the scoring system at first, but I don't think it "killed" artistic skating. Just my $0.02

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Has figure skating ever been acknowledged as an "art"? I would say , no.

I think people have regarded ice dance as performance art on ice but singles skating I think has been viewed primarily as a sport. That being said, the art aspect of skating is fundamental to distinguishing figure skating. However I don't think the art aspect is as critical to skating's popularity as some would assert. For most casual viewers its all about the jumps and spins and then with that comes an appreciation for what goes in between.

 

[Wo|flax]

I think people have regarded ice dance as performance art on ice but singles skating I think has been viewed primarily as a sport. That being said, the art aspect of skating is fundamental to distinguishing figure skating. However I don't think the art aspect is as critical to skating's popularity as some would assert. For most casual viewers its all about the jumps and spins and then with that comes an appreciation for what goes in between.

I would add that it's the performance as well, they might not get SS, transitions (or crossovers), but certainly musicality, expression, the ability to project and emote, and also a clean/pretty performance. It doesn't have to be perfect choreo, just a good performance.

 

[unico]

Wow! I am so sorry if my post (as I wrote about art institution) offense you or anyone, I am not intend to ad hominem anyone. I certainly do think that I have to be super careful in what I posted and word selection from now on .

My point is there are theories and perspectives that can be used to discussed art and from that there can be arguments rather than saying that this kind of thread should not exist in the first place as art is subjective. Although , of course, the propose of argument can be a bit more creative than to prove that art in skating is death.

Sorry, I wasn't offended as much as I was baffled, and you were hardly the only one who expressed this opinion so I wasn't trying to blow up on you. You certainly didn't ad hominem anyone. The "objective" aspects of art (or rather, aesthetics of composition/design) that you mention is not the be-all-end-all for art school, so it just kind of boggled my mind to read that. Or like another user said, that subjectivity means that curators or critics lose meaning in jobs...

We can discuss programs using objective measures (posture, line, extension, composition i.e. distribution and placement of elements in time with music, etc), but figure skating as an artistic performance is something where parts don't always add up to a whole. Is the magic ingredient "performance skills"? Can those with an introverted, non-audience orientated way of skating like Takahiko Kozuka be considered as artistic as Daisuke Takahashi? Or is the magic ingredient "creativity"? What is creativity and who is to decide what is creative and what isn't?

And this is EXACTLY the problem.

The majority of Westerners - and yes, I am including my own country in this - are too STUPID to appreciate the athleticism in figure skating or the strength it takes to control movements into grace and poise. They think male figure skaters are "feminine" and they think that is a bad thing. And so they get fixated on this stupid idea that ONLY a lady can be a star, figure skating can ONLY be popular if a lady is champion, and so on. Rather than appreciating their men, too.

I agree with you that the masculinity of figure skating is a big hindrance to its popularity in western countries. Japanese male figure skaters are so beloved in their home country because Japan isn't afraid to embrace what can be construed as being a bit "feminine", certainly nobody shies away from Hanyu's androgyny/feminine costumes. If Patrick Chan were as brilliant a hockey player as he is a figure skater, I wonder how different things would be for him.

 

[Alba]

^^ Agreed. Alba. However, praise for one person/skater does not diminish another -- at least, it shouldn't.

No t shouldn't, although we do know many do that.
Anyway, I brought that comment of Moskvina because it was relevant to comparing art in different era, times.
I think it's like with the movies. Look at the classics and the movies of today. Same subject is treated differently.
Sometimes the result is better and sometimes it's worse. But in the end it all comes down to the writers, directos and actors rather than the new mentality, approach or the technique.

I don't know if you get my point.

I think people have regarded ice dance as performance art on ice but singles skating I think has been viewed primarily as a sport. That being said, the art aspect of skating is fundamental to distinguishing figure skating. However I don't think the art aspect is as critical to skating's popularity as some would assert. For most casual viewers its all about the jumps and spins and then with that comes an appreciation for what goes in between.

I'm not a casual viewer. I watch FS since 1984, and yet for me jumps and technical elements are very important, as well as the performance.
I never liked Gala's and shows for example. I did love to watch Pros though.


I remember 2 years ago, in an italian forum about music, we started a discussion: What is art?
Well, after pages and weeks of discussion, no one was able to come with a "formula", which we could all agree.

 

[Barb]

Just from my observations as a fan of figure skating in Japan, here are some possible reasons why the sport is growing in popularity.
Is it correlation or causation, I don't know.

1. Champions or possible champions
Japan has several top level skaters who can be counted on (we hope) to take top placement in international competitions.
Not just one skater, but quite a few. Also, some very promising junior and novice skaters who the media also focus on.
It is not a cult of the individual.

2. Charismatic (for Japan) skaters
Skaters like Daiskue, Mao, Shizuka, Hanyu, Nobu, Akiko and even Machida have interesting personalities and charisma.
--Yes, they may seem very vanilla to you, but in Japan, they are seen as quite exotic. They don't follow the same rules as other Japanese in many ways.
And they are seen as good people. They are very careful of their image.

3. Media Coverage
The media covers all aspects of singles skating. Not just fluff pieces on the skaters but really in-depth explanations about the rules of figure skating.
After the 2014 World championships, a popular channel replayed Tatsuki and Hanyu's SP and LP with commentary about the GOE's of each of their jumps.
Before and after Sochi, there were many short pieces about the jump layout of Patrick Chan, Hanyu, Daisuke etc, and how that could impact the scores.

The Artistic elements are pretty much left to the individual to decide upon. They mention that someone like Daisuke has great expression and moves on ice like a dancer and leave it at that.
People know about the rules of figure skating and therefore can enjoy watching it more.

What about America and other countries where figure skating is in a decline? Can it be 'just' a lack of artistry that is causing this?

Why exotic??

 

[Interspectator]

Why exotic??

-as in, different, strange, slightly foreign.
With their costumes, ice shows, and travel abroad. They are casual (yet friendly) towards each other regardless of age or seniority, which is not a traditional way to have a sports team behave. Seniority is usually so important in Japan. It may seem like a small thing, but using someone's name without an honorific on TV is considered VERY casual, bordering on impolite. But team Japan do it quite often. -And no one minds.

 

[Mathman]

I think we should remember that the decline in the popularity of figure skating in the United States began around 1998-2000. There were many newspaper articles at that time speculating about the cause. We cannot blame the CoP -- it hadn't been invented yet. We can't blame the "lack of a big star in ladies" -- Michelle Kwan was at her peak, the U.S. won both gold and silver at the 1998 Olympics with Tara and Michelle, by 2000 Sasha Cohen was waiting in the wings. We can't blame it on the lack of "artistry." Programs in that era were just as "artistic" as they had been in the early 90s when skating was riding high, or in the 80s or the 70s. Some people have mentioned the cheesiness of professional shows in the 90s as turning people off to the sport, but I don't think so. Others said that things just settled back to normal after the temporary and artificial boost of the knee-whack. Maybe so.

In any case it is no use to call people stupid because they don't like what we like. Cultural drift. That was then, this is now. People in the U.S. are just not into this particular form of entertainment these days. (Ballroom dancing, now -- who could have predicted that anyone would start watching that on TV?)

 

[Interspectator]

I think we should remember that the decline in the popularity of figure skating in the United States began around 1998-2000. There were many newspaper articles at that time speculating about the cause. We cannot blame the CoP -- it hadn't been invented yet. We can't blame the "lack of a big star in ladies" -- Michelle Kwan was at her peak, the U.S. won both gold and silver at the 1998 Olympics with Tara and Michelle, by 2000 Sasha Cohen was waiting in the wings. We can't blame it on the lack of "artistry." Programs in that era were just as "artistic" as they had been in the early 90s when skating was riding high, or in the 80s or the 70s. Some people have mentioned the cheesiness of professional shows in the 90s as turning people off to the sport, but I don't think so. Others said that things just settled back to normal after the temporary and artificial boost of the knee-whack. Maybe so.

In any case it is no use to call people stupid because they don't like what we like. Cultural drift. People in the U.S. are just not into this particular form of entertainment these days. (Ballroom dancing, now -- who could have predicted that anyone would start watching that on TV?)

Maybe the rise to prominence of other sports and other entertainment not sports-related took the spotlight away from figure skating in the west?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Maybe the rise to prominence of other sports and other entertainment not sports-related took the spotlight away from figure skating in the west?

I believe so. If MM is right that the popularity started to decline around 2000, that corresponds to the time reality TV started gaining popularity. There are so many more entertainment options to choose from now.

 

[yyyskate]

people dont care about the sports, is it really because of COP ，"less art" ...or it is because unfair judging
as long as judges play by the rule book, people will still get a clue and be interested. (The rules could be designed better to encourage more creativity though).
If which country you were born seems to be the ultimate determinant of scores, why would people care, where should skaters aim for?
personally, I wont care about score, ranking, medals nowadays, but I will still looking for great figure skating programs. using the rules that I learned from figure skating or COP, and there are still great skaters/choreographers out there, that is the reason, I am still watching figure skating, it is a fascinating sport, I just dont care about scores etc. so I can still enjoy it, but I cannot say this about others.

 

[Barb]

always we are discussing this topic (figure skating decline) in the forum once a week or twice a week, for years. Mathman you has years here, I dont know how you still answer about this. I am in another kind of forum where there is a section with "mythical topics" because always people come back to the same.

 

[Mathman]

Mathman you has years here, I dont know how you still answer about this.

I like to pipe up just to remind people that this question has been on the boards for fifteen years now. So the answer to the question about decline of interest in skating can't be "the CoP" or "no Michelle Kwan" because we were asking the same question when there was no CoP but there was a Michelle Kwan.

About artistry, though, I think we are on safer ground if we use that term in the sense of the "performing arts" rather than A-R-T art. Performing arts include circuses, musicals, rodeos, figure skating -- you name it. That gives us a way fully to appreciate the performances of Surya Bonaly and Elvis Stojko, as mentioned above. They traded "aww, isn't that pretty" (Mao Asada) for "give 'em the old razzmatazz" (Max Aaron). It's all good.

 

[[email protected]]

If Gracie Gold were to win Worlds for the next 3 years in a row, it wouldn't make ice skating very popular again. It would simply make her more famous. People like to fantasize themselves as being famous. They don't really care why someone is famous and successful, they simply like to feed off that aura. They will follow her on Twitter and perhaps buy a useful product that she recommends, and figure skating would benefit in a minor way from the splash effect, but largely people would not suddenly be following the sport again. They would not be talking about how much a performance moved and entertained them.

This whole mantra of "[insert country name here] just needs a champion for ice skating to become popular again" is ridiculously flawed in the first place because there can only be a very limited number of World/Olympic Champions!! If Nationalistic Championing is the main reason why people like a sport, then that means it would only ever be popular in a few countries at a time.

I wonder, why the U.S. would be so different from Russia. We have Yulia, and all the rinks in Moscow are suddenly overcrowded. My colleague's wife has to get up at 5 a.m. to get her daughter to the rink. The fact that Yulia has finally picked her LP was on the national TV. Averbukh's show has being running Wednesday through Sunday since June, and there are thousands visitors every time. I would have laughed if someone had told me a year ago that I would long for yet another stage of every junior grand prix - previous 20 years or so I just watched the worlds and Olympics. It's all about megastars in this sport.

 

[Mathman]

I wonder, why the U.S. would be so different from Russia.

That is a good question, but I think Blades of Passion is right. It is utterly beyond comprehension why some people become famous in America and others don't.

Michael Phelps won 18 Olympic gold medals in swimming. He is quite invisible in the news (except for getting in trouble for smoking a Hookah at a party). No one goes to swimming meets in the U.S., except parents of the competitors.

Gabriella Douglas won the overall gymnastics title. She ought to be a marketers dream, cute, vivacious, and an inspiration to young and old. Kellogg's gave her a million dollars to put her picture on a cereal box. We haven't heard from her since.

Meanwhile Kim Kardashian is paid tens of thousands of dollars to show up at Hollywood parties. She is famous for posting a video of her ample, naked rear end on You Tube. Who hasn't? but somehow Kim K. is famous and I'm not.

 

[dorispulaski]

To be a megastar, the star in question must first be one that appeals to a lot of people. Winning is not the only prerequisite for a megastar. If it were, we would have had a throng of little boys trying to be the next Evan Lysacek following the 2010 Olympics. And although it is perhaps too soon to tell, we would have a huge group of little ice dancers after Meryl & Charlie's Olympic win in dance, a flood of new skaters that should only have increased following Meryl's triumph in DWTS. And it can't be merely the likeability plus winning. Meryl won because people voted for her, even more than voted for the very, very popular Derek Hough and his partner with the most sympathetic back story ever, Amy.

So something else is wrong here in the US.

One thing is that it is immediately, painfully obvious to parents of would be skaters that the sport is too expensive, that there is no support until a skater is at the very highest levels, and even then neither the government nor the federation nor a corporation sponsorship helps enough to cover the huge expenses involved. There are not even scholarships available.

My granddaughter would have liked to take lessons. She loved Disney on Ice and the Olympics, and wanted to try it. Her parents, who are doing very well, will not allow it. They feel nothing good can come of skating, only expense.

If you can't sell the parents on the desirability of something, there will.be no little 5 year olds taking it up.

 

[silverfoxes]

Most skaters in the US are very bland and lacking in charisma. They give boring, generic answers in every interview. I think it's brainwashed into them by the US skating federation. On top of that, the only touring ice show left in the US is the very bland, cheesy, "family friendly" Stars on Ice. The only ice shows on tv are the Disson dreck.

Meryl Davis was able to let her hair down, so to speak, on DWTS and the public responded very positively. Johnny Weir's doing well for himself; people who care nothing for skating know who he is. Some may not like his personality, but at least he has one.

If skaters were encouraged to be themselves off ice, and to act and behave like real people, I think they would be able to grow a bigger fan base. The general public is way too jaded at this point in history to buy into the facade of the perfect ice princess or Wheaties box model.

I would love it if someone with deep pockets would finance an "alternative," sophisticated ice show that focused on artistic skating with a modern edge - similar to the Art on Ice or Artistry on Ice productions. It's truly a shame if a country the size of the US cannot support a production like that.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

One thing is that it is immediately, painfully obvious to parents of would be skaters that the sport is too expensive

But it doesn't take a lot of money to be a fan of the sport unless of course we begin travelling(advantage Europe and Asia). The sad thing is when I try and show my fellow Americans videos of Gracie Gold they show very little interest...yet if we had a diva show called Divas on Ice with scripted drama they would be going ga ga and asking me why I'm not interested. Something is indeed wrong here in America.

It was interesting to me to have seen so many people close to me take notice of Yulia. Her Olympic story appealed to all walks of life. The only other skater anyone from outside of the figure skating world mentioned to me or showed interest in was Yuzuru.

I don't think the art is dying in figure skating as much as art is maybe dying here in America or maybe a better way to phrase it is an under appreciation of. This could be a good thing in the end because every recoil usually is followed by a resurgence.