New rule on hand-assisted spirals

Just an aside note: I notice that when Sasha does a spiral (eg. left forward outside), her shoulders are not square. Her left shoulder is lower than her right causing her torso to be twisted facing the outside. Maybe you can get a higher spiral leg that way instead of have a torso that is perfectly square.

Another side note: Her spiral takes incredible strength and flexibility, but you NEVER see a skater doing a classique arabesque where the body is not tipped down (ie. shoulders and torso facing forward) and the leg at 90 degrees. That is very difficult to do. Why don't we see that at all?

SolarisFyre said:

I have actually noted a few skaters who do use their hand/s to assist in the entire spiral sequence, although admittedly I don't remember seeing any this season.

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I think that's because the "unassisted" rule (ie. requiring at least one spiral in the sequence to be hands-free) was a LAST-year change, was it not??

The biggest change THIS year is: a hands-free spiral with free leg forward or sideways (ie. the "fan", "hydrant", "dog pee", whatever-you-want-to-call-it move) won't count toward levels when used as a position in itself. It still can be used to satisfy the number-of-positions requirement, but that's all, so who in their right mind would use it that way. It'll quickly go extinct. This DOES effect at least two top ladies: Meissner and Hughes. Hughes performed it acceptably. Meissner's will not be missed. I don't recall who else performed it last season.

Cohen as usual was the standard-bearer of this move, and fortunately for her, she could still use it. (Because of the WAY she uses it-- as a difficult variation of an assisted Y-spiral, not a position itself.) Using it as variation still counts toward levels! I'm very glad ISU decided that, and explicitely stated that in their wording.

Mathman said:

Check out this picture of Sasha doing an absolutely straight up 180 without a hand assist!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a.cohen).jpg/180px-Charlotte(sasha.cohen).jpg

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Cohen is S.O.L. regarding the Charlotte in that Wiki photo, unfortunately. It's performed on a FLAT. According to the rule changes, flat spirals are now "ignored", presumably as both a position and difficulty-variation (although for variations, the wording seems to leave the door open). But even if it were still allowed as a variation, I can't think of any position that an on-flat BACKWARD charlotte could realistically be added to(?) Backward Bielmann maybe?

Charlottes on edge are still OK as a position, but who would be capable? I wonder if Charlottes will go extinct, because it seems like it would need to be performed first in the sequence to get the necessary speed. And nobody in their right mind will use it first. There is MUCH more payback (toward levels) to do a COE first. But who knows, maybe someday we'll see a COE Charlotte, lol. (Although honestly I don't know who would be capable of that besides Cohen.)

tully said:

But who knows, maybe someday we'll see a COE Charlotte, lol.

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Whoah. That would be crazy. It would look like a dying flamingo or something. LMAO!

~Z

To me. there was nothing as good as Shizuka's 'hand-held Y spiral' when she freed her hands and changed edges. increible!

Joe

tully said:

Charlottes on edge are still OK as a position, but who would be capable? I wonder if Charlottes will go extinct, because it seems like it would need to be performed first in the sequence to get the necessary speed. And nobody in their right mind will use it first. There is MUCH more payback (toward levels) to do a COE first. But who knows, maybe someday we'll see a COE Charlotte, lol. (Although honestly I don't know who would be capable of that besides Cohen.)

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Have you seen Caroline Zhang's COE spiral into a forward charlotte position on an outside edge?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSadv0tuj9s
It's so awesome, I wish the camera was at an angle so that we can see it from the side. She doesn't lose too much speed, and I bet with her flexibility she can do it in a perfect split, which is now a feature. I hope she puts it into her competitive programs next season!

She did it in her Jr. Worlds exhibition encore, and followed up with a cool illusion spin, which I really miss. I hope CoP will change somehow to allow the illusion spin to come back. It looks great and sure is difficult when it's synch'ed to the music, fast, and centered, I think CoP is really stupid to get rid of this spin.

feraina said:

Have you seen Caroline Zhang's COE spiral into a forward charlotte position on an outside edge?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSadv0tuj9s
It's so awesome, I wish the camera was at an angle so that we can see it from the side. She doesn't lose too much speed, and I bet with her flexibility she can do it in a perfect split, which is now a feature. I hope she puts it into her competitive programs next season!

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Awww, unbelievable, forward Charlotte!!!! SO SCARY.....! Yes, it would be really great if she could incorporate it in her programs. Perhaps it wouldn't be very difficult for her to use a deep edge if she does it backward because she looks just so comfortable with that position!!

A forward charlotte is much harder than a backward one, 'cause you can trip so easily, and yet the CoP doesn't recognize it. Same with the amazing pearl-into-bielmann spin that Caroline does, or the way she can increase speed by pulling in her arms/legs in either the pearl or Bielmann position, not to mention the crazy 180 spiral position with her arms wrapped around her thighs that someone else mentioned earlier (Here's a photo: http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/3383/exhizm4.jpg).

Btw, she apparently used the CoE+forward charlotte in both SP and LP in last year's U.S. Championships (junior), photos #7 & 15 on this website: http://www.geocities.com/carolinezhangweb/nats06junior.html
Maybe she took it out because it's not worth it under CoP. She already gets level 4 with simpler, more common moves, so why bother with these difficult variations? hwell:

CoP should create a level 5 for spins/spirals to award someone like her who can do these amazing things and has the drive to create new moves all the time! The really crazy spins and spirals she does are only used in exhibition numbers and not in the actual competitions. How many other skaters put their harder moves into exhibitions instead of competitions? :scratch:

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that it is only recently that a Charlotte was really considered as part of a spiral sequence at all. In the past (like when Michelle reinvigorated the move in 1999), I believe it was considered more as "moves in the field," like an Ina Bauer. (Is this right?)

In this category, doing it on the flat is fine and it makes a spectacular addition to the program, like a wow split jump, etc.

Unfortunately, you don't get any CoP points for moves in the field. It's not clear that you get any PCSs either. I doubt if we will see this move much any more -- as Feraina says, there are easier ways to get the required changes of position for a level four.

Mathman said:

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that it is only recently that a Charlotte was really considered as part of a spiral sequence at all. In the past (like when Michelle reinvigorated the move in 1999), I believe it was considered more as "moves in the field," like an Ina Bauer.

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That's interesting. Does anyone know if the Charlotte has been done on an edge in a spiral sequence other than Caroline Z? Michelle did hers on a flat too, right?

I can see how Charlotte on a flat would not be considered a spiral. Spirals on a flat are easier than on an edge; when you learn spirals usually you learn it on a flat first. The only thing harder than a forward charlotte that Caroline did after a CoE, I guess, would be a forward Charlotte on an inside edge after CoE. Now I would love to see that done with speed, deep edge, and good extension.

The normal forward spiral dating back to the beginnings often went into a charlotte-like spiral. Not every skater was that limber, but some were.

C Zhang is in a league of her own. She is just amazing to watch! Her inside spiral is so deep! From that video, she has got more flexibility than Sasha and her arm movements are so natural and expressive. She really feels the music. Sorry...I digressed. I couldn't help it.

Joe said:

The normal forward spiral dating back to the beginnings often went into a charlotte-like spiral. Not every skater was that limber, but some were.

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It must have been w-a-a-y back to the beginnings. I don't know of any top skater that used it in competitve program before Michelle Kwan. I'm pretty sure that it was not in the repertroire of Barbara Ann Scott, Tenley Albright, Carol Heiss, Peggy Fleming, Katarina Witt, Kristi Yamaguchi, Oksana Baiul, or Tara Lipinski.

All the references that I can find on this move refer to it as an "archaic show maneuver" (like an airplane spin, I suppose), that you saw in professional extravaganza's but not in competition.

One source says, "This is a move that Michelle Kwan found in the archives" [more likely, Frank Carroll did, LOL]. Peggy Fleming raved about it at 1999 Nationals when Michelle first put it into her Arianne LP. Within two years, everyone was trying it, LOL.

BTW, that same year Michelle also put another unique move into her Fate of Carmen short program [more likely Lori Nicole did] -- a couple of high kicks like a Rockette, from a position standing on her toe pick. It was pretty amazing, but she never did it again (and no one else picked it up, either). Every year during that stretch Frank and Lori seemed to come up with yet another unusual embellishment to add to Michelle's repertoire.

In her Rush SP/exhibition number the next year Michelle deliberately changed the choreography to put the jumps and her layback spin a little earlier, so she would have time to give the Charlotte it's full due as a program highlight.

About edging, all of the definitions of the move that I can find say specifically that the Charlotte is performed on the flat. This one is typical:

"Charlotte Spiral: Also known as a "candlestick spiral”, the Charlotte is a backward spiral performed on the flat of the blade..."

http://www.skatejournal.com/turnglide.html

Because it is a move done on the flat, you can go backward in a straight line and hold the position for a long time and cover a great distance, which is what really sells the move, IMHO.

If you are on an edge, it seems to me that you would not be able to keep your center of gravity over your skate for more than a few seconds, plus, you would be curving ("spiraling") toward the center of your circle. As for a change of edge spiral, I think Zuranthium nailed it with his "flamingo in death thoes."

So I think if Caroline Zhang does come up with a legitimate variation of this position, on an edge and as part of a CoP-approved spiral sequence, I agree with Passion's post above. Caroline deserves that 1-point bonus for an original and unique move.

Mathman said:

As for a change of edge spiral, I think Zuranthium nailed it with his "flamingo in death thoes."

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I know you can't really tell things like edge or speed or flow in stills, but this photo is still pretty amazing, if it's done as a forward charlotte in a COE spiral sequence, as I'm guessing it is http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/252/dscf92824md.jpg

I went back and looked at Caroline Z's detailed scores from last year's US Championships and this year's, and her spiral sequence (level 4) from last year's LP received higher GOE than both of hers this year (both level 4). We can't know for sure without watching the video, but I'm guessing that maybe she got higher GOE last year because she put in the COE+Charlotte. If so, I wonder why she took it out.

Maybe it's because it's hard to hold it for 3 seconds. Her 2006 SP spiral sequence only got level 3, maybe because she didn't hold it long enough. Too risky in a pressure-cooked competition when it only garners you an extra .5 GOE, maybe?

Here's a crazy idea: COE done entirely in Charlotte position!

If I ever meet Caroline, I'll suggest (dare?) her to do it in an exhibition. She of all people might actually pull it off!

Charlotte "stop"?

http://www.olympic.org/uk/utilities/multimedia/gallery/photo_uk.asp

Looks like she's going onto the toepicks backward to come to a stop, as Charlotte herself used to do.

feraina said:

I know you can't really tell things like edge or speed or flow in stills, but this photo is still pretty amazing, if it's done as a forward charlotte in a COE spiral sequence, as I'm guessing it is http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/252/dscf92824md.jpg

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Wow! If she can rock back onto an outside edge from that position without falling down, she's got my vote!

feraina said:

Here's a crazy idea: COE done entirely in Charlotte position!

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gee why didn't I think of that :sheesh: (see prev pg.)

(Just kidding I'm sure I'm hardly the first to bring up that idea.)

Had no idea Zhang had done it (possibly). Also had completely forgotton about the "innovative bonus" mentioned in a previous post. A quick check of the tech rules shows a maximum of 2 bonus points, once per program (and per season, presumably). So if Caroline is truly capable of doing it, lets hope she saves it for Worlds whenever she becomes eligible. I think that's a couple years away, but I seriously doubt anyone will beat her to the punch on that element. I wonder how many ladies could not even deal with it, physiologically...getting through 8-10 seconds in an upside down position, winded, at high speed, maintaining control and extension the whole time. It boggles the mind. If that isn't 2 bonus points I don't know what would be.

Deleted. See below.

It must have been w-a-a-y back to the beginnings. I don't know of any top skater that used it in competitve program before Michelle Kwan. I'm pretty sure that it was not in the repertroire of Barbara Ann Scott, Tenley Albright, Carol Heiss, Peggy Fleming, Katarina Witt, Kristi Yamaguchi, Oksana Baiul, or Tara Lipinski.

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Mathman, of course it was waaaay back. That's when I started skating. I wouldn't say those Charlotte's were the cat's meow but they were more than an attempt. Sonia had one but it was more like a Charlotte attitude. I think Barbara Ann also had one in her Ave Maria number. Definitely, Belita, and maybe Carol Lynn. Some of these people you don't know. the kids at the rink were all working on arabesque ponchet(sp) which is the ballet term for charlotte. That Charlotte woman brought it into ice skating but it didn't linger there until Michelle picked it up. .

It's constantly being used in ballet on toe with a hand hold from the Prince Charming today.

Joe

gkelly said:

Charlotte "stop"?

http://www.olympic.org/uk/utilities/multimedia/gallery/photo_uk.asp

Looks like she's going onto the toepicks backward to come to a stop, as Charlotte herself used to do.

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That was one of Sonia's big tricks. Who came first, Charotte or Sonia?