I thought NNN did an OE abrasque spiral into a forward Charlotte on an OE???
Starts out:
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/prodigion_1904_186388562
Then into:
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/prodigion_1904_186447347
New rule on hand-assisted spirals
- Thread starter Mathman
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I thought NNN did an OE abrasque spiral into a forward Charlotte on an OE???
Starts out:
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/prodigion_1904_186388562
Then into:
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/prodigion_1904_186447347
Charlotte (Oelschlagel). She was starring in ice shows and a movie ca. 1915-1916, before Henie had ever put on skates.
There are video clips of Henie here:
http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/profiles/bio_uk.asp?PAR_I_ID=74701
The Charlotte stop is at the end. She stands up and puts her other foot down after stopping.
I've never heard of this before! Does anyone have a link to the rule? This is cool, but only once a season?? So if you're Caroline Z, you can only bring in one new thing a season? The Pearl this year, the Charlotte next year, the crazy 180-spiral the one after...
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- Mar 14, 2006
WTH? Isn't that standing in the way of the sport's advancement? What an un-sporting rule.
here's the verbiage from p.22, ISU Special Regulations & Tech Rules Single & Pair Skating June 2006:
more from p. 110:
sorry i don't have a link to this doc (found it on my hard drive) but it shouldn't be hard to track down
So I was wrong in my assumption that it could only be awarded once per season. Looks like it can be awarded all season long. I'm amazed at that, frankly. I wonder if it would work out this way in actual practice. (Does anybody have an real-life example of a bonus?)
Also regarding the Q about who has done on-edge charlotte, Sasha has performed it in exhibitions (at tail end of COE). But that would be considered difficulty-enhancer for COP purposes. Again , the difficulty of Charlottes under new rules is: can't be on flat, AND to count as a position , it must be preceded by change of foot + direction + edge, like any other spiral position. Anything less than that, and it's just a "difficult variation", if I understand the rules correctly. So it's going to be challenging for anybody to build up the speed to do Charlotte as the 2nd or 3rd position. (not sure, but i think only one foot-pump is allowed between positions??). Lady might be able to eek it out, but there's a huge risk it might get called "on the flat" and DQ-ed. Even if passes muster, it'll probably look slow and puny. Doing it as the 1st position almost seems like a necessity. But that's asking a lot. (to ask Lady to forego a standard COE abaresque or bielmann as the 1st position).
I was hopeful we'd see more Charlottes under new rules, but the more I think about it, they may be used very sparingly. Then again, maybe they'll turn out to be used often-- just poorly and unimpressively, like the dog-pees were.
I'm thinking SOMEBODY will try the COE charlotte though, because of the aforementioned, all-season-long 2 point bonus. That's very tantilizing, for anybody capable. Hopefully the bar will be set high, though-- I wouldn't want to see "just any" COE charlotte get the bonus. It should be sasha/zhang quality, or no points (if I were ruler).
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
AFAIK it has never been awarded.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I read the rule as something that has never before been seen. The Charlotte has been around for some time. I don't see any rationale to give it a bunus now.
The first quintuple jump, yes!
Joe
The first quintuple jump, yes!
Joe
What's harder about spiral sequences under the new compared to last year is that only the first three positions will count toward level features. It used to be that skaters would do four or five different positions to try to accumulate four features. Now they'll have to get them done more efficiently to achieve level 4.
And there doesn't need to be a change of foot and direction and edge all at the same time. In fact, according to the explanations in the latest communication, if you change two or three of those at the same time you'll still only get credit for one more position and may not get credit for a difficult change. But if you just change the body position without changing foot or edge or skating direction or changing whether the free leg is forward, side, or behind, it seems that that will all count as one "position" but could include changing between a difficult and a non-difficult variation of the same position.
No, there's no such requirement. Skaters can take several steps between spiral positions and can include turns, half jumps, brief spread eagles or Ina Bauers. The only catch is that any time spent not in spiral position between positions takes away from the time spent in spirals, and a minimum percentage of the time needs to be spent in spiral position to avoid reductions in the GOE.
So something like this would qualify for level 4 (now that back inside edge is no longer required for the first feature):
Left forward inside-to-outside change of edge in a difficult position (e.g., Biellmann or Y spiral) held 3 seconds before and after the change (that's two features, change of edge plus difficult variation, and two positions forward on the left foot, using both edges, toward the first feature)
RFI mohawk, and then a couple of back crossovers (change foot to falling leaf, RFI mohawk, back crossover, or back double three instead of the falling leaf and second mohawk, and then just one crossover) to
Right back outside Charlotte (second difficult variation on the other foot for yet another feature, and completing the feature one requirements by using the other foot and a backward edge)
Or for a forward Charlotte, start the sequence with a backward change of edge in difficult position, then take a few steps/strokes w/ or w/o turns into the forward Charlotte on the other foot
Also, some skaters who had been trying for level 4 with four separate features over four or five positions may now just stick to level 3 and try for higher GOEs
I doubt that would be considered innovative enough for the bonus, since it's just combining two skills that are already well established.
How come Caroline didn't get the bonus for her "pearl" spin? If that's now part of the accepted repertoire, then next year even if she puts the pearl-into-bielmann spin into her competitive programs, she probably won't get a bonus (transition from one accepted position into another, duh). 
It doesn't seem fair. That's one of the most innovative spins I've seen in recent years.
It doesn't seem fair. That's one of the most innovative spins I've seen in recent years.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Thanks for that explanation. :thumbsup:
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- Mar 19, 2006
Exsactly my impression. They want originality and creativity, but don't reward it. Why, can only speculate, but they must already have some idea of original and creative - which would mean that they aren't looking for it really, "preconceptions" - so they don't give squat to those who do it / try it / exhibit it. Why try if there is no reward?she probably won't get a bonus (transition from one accepted position into another, duh).
btw, gkelly, you are once again so appreciated for your posts. Sometimes - most of the time - maybe all of the time, you exhibit such a good understanding and you willingness to share with us. Thanks!
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:thumbsup: Thanks for all the clarifications (esp. the in-between steps example). Didn't realize there was a minimum-percentage rule regarding time spent in spiral position. Might have been a communication(?) Cant find it anywhere in the ISU doc, although it does mention distribution of steps, though nothing too specific (p.90 - bolded for emphasis):
ETA: never mind the ISU ref , my eyes were playing tricks and I thought I was reading the spiral section, but it was steps. :lol: More coffee!! (But still, if you could point me to the minimum-percentage rule or communication, or if you know the number offhand, let us know. Hopefully it's something fairly high like 60 or 70 percent.)
ETA#2 : found it! On p.91, it says "primarily" spiral position, which would indicate 50 percent:
Slightly off topic, but what would it take to receive the innovation bonus? Not that it matters for a COE charlotte -- I think the GOE would be so sky-high (if it were Zhang-quality), it would essentially be almost the same amount of reward. But would either of these qualify:
- Zhang's pearl spin
- Tano-style jump position (hypothetical-- if it were introduced today)
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See ISU Communication 1396.
Under "Guidelines for Judges in establishing GOE for errors in Singles Short Program elements," reductions of -1 to -3 (respectively?) are listed for "Only 50, from 40 to 50 or less than 40 % of the time in spiral positions"
The same note is under the guidelines for long programs.
So if more than 50% (at least 51%
) of the sequence is in spiral position, there need be no reduction.
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- Jul 11, 2003
I do not get the obsession with Spirals on figure skating boards. They appear to me as Rest periods and do not have any flow in choreography. B O R I N G !!!
Once a skater becomes a Senior Lady it is believed that she has mastered all her edges including changes of edges. That is 95 per cent of the spiral element. How far she can put her leg in the air has nothing to do with skating but does show a certain amount of limberness (leave the turned out knees and pointed toes to the GoEs and the judges)' JMO.
And with CoP it becomes a looooong Rest period. Every female skater has the same variations of the spirals. However, some of the Men throw in a spiral and it is just one; maybe with a change of edge, and it is not a rest period but part of the flow of choreography.
Why can't the ladies do spirals throughout their routines instead of in one clump?
Joe
Once a skater becomes a Senior Lady it is believed that she has mastered all her edges including changes of edges. That is 95 per cent of the spiral element. How far she can put her leg in the air has nothing to do with skating but does show a certain amount of limberness (leave the turned out knees and pointed toes to the GoEs and the judges)' JMO.
And with CoP it becomes a looooong Rest period. Every female skater has the same variations of the spirals. However, some of the Men throw in a spiral and it is just one; maybe with a change of edge, and it is not a rest period but part of the flow of choreography.
Why can't the ladies do spirals throughout their routines instead of in one clump?
Joe
How come Caroline didn't get the bonus for her "pearl" spin? If that's now part of the accepted repertoire, then next year even if she puts the pearl-into-bielmann spin into her competitive programs, she probably won't get a bonus (transition from one accepted position into another, duh).
What is the "pearl" spin? Any links?
I think you answered your own question by hitting on the keyword: Rest. It's a rest for them, and for us as viewers. It's a nice break where they appear relaxed & enjoying themselves, not tense and spinning/jumping furiously. It's the really dramatic highpoint (or at least it CAN be, when performed well), and is the thing that really makes ladies stand out from all other disciplines, IMO.
In addition to the "not skating" argument, I've also heard past grousing about the "unladylike" positions. (not you... others on various boards.) To that I say: hangup.
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- Mar 1, 2006
I think this might be it
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/events/200607/jgpmexico/photos/zhang-layback.jpg
Solaris, you beat me to it. That is indeed the "pearl" spin that Caroline coined. She gets into it by grabbing her boot in the layback spin. She then either pulls her boot in and makes the spin go faster (!) or pulls up into a Bielmann (!!). The latter I've only seen her done in exhibitions.
Joesitz, I love spirals -- when they're done well (speed, extension, creative positions, pointed toes, etc.). Yes, everyone learns changes of edge early on in skating, but it's much harder in the spiral position. So even though it's not as hard to master as a triple lutz, it's not trivial either. When your head is in a horizontal or upside down position, your vestibular system goes all out of whack, and it takes much practice and skill to control your edges and body line. If you ever skated with a bad head cold, then you know the feeling.
Joesitz, I love spirals -- when they're done well (speed, extension, creative positions, pointed toes, etc.). Yes, everyone learns changes of edge early on in skating, but it's much harder in the spiral position. So even though it's not as hard to master as a triple lutz, it's not trivial either. When your head is in a horizontal or upside down position, your vestibular system goes all out of whack, and it takes much practice and skill to control your edges and body line. If you ever skated with a bad head cold, then you know the feeling.
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- Mar 30, 2006
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