Arakawa coming back stronger than ever?

R.D. · Sep 16, 2005

Boy, look out. I'd say we have another dark horse this season.

A translator on FSU said that Arakawa announced in an article (and this means it came from HER mouth so it's 100% reliable) that she is planning two Bielmann spins and a 3-3.

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28229

Excidra2001 · Sep 16, 2005

ohh no, two biellmans and a 3/3, all who stand in her way look out, Arakawa is doing something she's never done before. :sheesh: Considering that all her 3/3s were down-graded to 3/2 last season, its kind of hard ot believe that she'll come with a fully rotated 3/3.

To be honest with you, at this point, Arakawa should consider her self lucky if she wins the bronze in Turino. I know she did not want to skate last season, but her world title really carried her through most of last season. Arakawa was never the one to be competitive with Cohen/Slutskaya/Kwan. If they all skate their best, I expect them to occupy the podium.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 17, 2005

I'm of the school that sportsmen (persons) can improve and do not take more than 'note' of the last time out.

Joe

attyfan · Sep 17, 2005

Arakawa herself said that she wanted to retire after Dortmund, but that the Japanese federation "talked her into staying" Oly eligible. IMO, if the competitive flames get re-lit, Arakawa is a serious contender for the OGM, but if the internal fire isn't there, then forget it.

hockeyfan228 · Sep 18, 2005

Excidra2001 said:
To be honest with you, at this point, Arakawa should consider her self lucky if she wins the bronze in Turino. I know she did not want to skate last season, but her world title really carried her through most of last season. Arakawa was never the one to be competitive with Cohen/Slutskaya/Kwan. If they all skate their best, I expect them to occupy the podium.

I think that Arakawa is a better skater than Cohen, Kwan, or Slutskaya. I don't think she is as good a competitor. However, if they all skate their best, then I think Arakawa should be at the top of the podium, although I don't think it will ever happen.

Vash01 · Sep 18, 2005

Arakawa has more overall talent than the other 3 ladies you (excidra) mentioned. She is one of the most complete skaters with jumps, flexibility, skating technique. In the past nerves and/or lack of confidence kept her from medaling at worlds, until 2004 worlds when TT provided the spark and Shiz skated the way she is capable of. I don't think she is done yet, and I honestly don't think she needs a Biellman spin to win. She landed two 3-3 combinations when she won the worlds in 2004, so it is not difficult for her to land one 3-3 combination.

antmanb · Sep 19, 2005

Vash01 said:
Arakawa has more overall talent than the other 3 ladies you (excidra) mentioned. She is one of the most complete skaters with jumps, flexibility, skating technique. In the past nerves and/or lack of confidence kept her from medaling at worlds, until 2004 worlds when TT provided the spark and Shiz skated the way she is capable of. I don't think she is done yet, and I honestly don't think she needs a Biellman spin to win. She landed two 3-3 combinations when she won the worlds in 2004, so it is not difficult for her to land one 3-3 combination.

Personally i think she benefitted from 6.0 at Dortmund worlds because those 3/3s where the triple loop is on the back half always look underrotated to me. the 3Lz/3Lp in the SP was a prime example - the triple loop had at least 1/2 turn on the ice before she took off.

I don't disagree with her win - i think that was the right decision but in terms of the jump combos - they were cheated

Ant

CDMM1991 · Sep 19, 2005

If 2004 Worlds was scored with CoP, do you think Shiz would have still won?

hockeyfan228 · Sep 19, 2005

antmanb said:
Personally i think she benefitted from 6.0 at Dortmund worlds because those 3/3s where the triple loop is on the back half always look underrotated to me. the 3Lz/3Lp in the SP was a prime example - the triple loop had at least 1/2 turn on the ice before she took off.

I don't disagree with her win - i think that was the right decision but in terms of the jump combos - they were cheated

Ant

Arakawa doesn't do 3Lz/3Lo. Ando does that combination. She did 3Lz/3T, which was underrotated in the SP, but not the LP, where it was part of a 3/3/2 combination.

Vash01 · Sep 20, 2005

antmanb said:
Personally i think she benefitted from 6.0 at Dortmund worlds because those 3/3s where the triple loop is on the back half always look underrotated to me. the 3Lz/3Lp in the SP was a prime example - the triple loop had at least 1/2 turn on the ice before she took off.

I don't disagree with her win - i think that was the right decision but in terms of the jump combos - they were cheated

Ant

Since Sarah Hughes was given 3-3 credit in the 2002 Olympics for her 2.5-2.5 jumps, there is nothing wrong with Shizuka getting a triple jump credit for a 2.75 jump, as her 3toe on the back of the 3sal-3toe appeared to me (and i think it would have counted as a triple under the COP also). The 3lutz-3toe-2loop was good; just a very slight turnout on the 3toe. Shizuka benefitted from the 6.0 system but so did other skaters. She had plenty of other things besides the jumps in her program.

antmanb · Sep 20, 2005

Vash01 said:
Since Sarah Hughes was given 3-3 credit in the 2002 Olympics for her 2.5-2.5 jumps, there is nothing wrong with Shizuka getting a triple jump credit for a 2.75 jump, as her 3toe on the back of the 3sal-3toe appeared to me (and i think it would have counted as a triple under the COP also). The 3lutz-3toe-2loop was good; just a very slight turnout on the 3toe. Shizuka benefitted from the 6.0 system but so did other skaters. She had plenty of other things besides the jumps in her program.

And i never said she didn't all i was talking about was her underrotated 3/3s which someone rightly corrected me that it was a toe loop not a loop.

I don't think Hughe's Olympic 3/3/ were underotated. The first one was clean and fully rotated and the second one had only about 1/4 turn cheat which is just about ok. Arakawa's jump in the SP was a half turn short and often is, i think in the LP though it was pretty clean.

Either way like i said i think she did deserve the win 2004 worlds, i just wonder what the point difference might have been under CoP had the jumps ben called as doubles and not triples.

Ant

soogar · Sep 20, 2005

I love Shizuka and think that she is the most talented lady skater I have ever seen. However I just don't think Shizuka has it in her to win a medal in the Olympics even though she has the talent worthy of an OGM. I don't take the news of a Biellman in a positive light. Quite frankly, TT ruined Shizuka last season by giving her programs that she couldn't skate to. I don't believe that TT even takes into consideration whether a skater can perform a program successfully and consistently when she choreographs. From reports, Shizuka is not comfortable doing the Biellman spin and she slows down considerably when she gets into position. A good choreographer would take that into account and figure out a different way for the skater to get points but TT doesn't do that. Looking at the COP, there are lots of ways for skaters to up their levels in spins without doing a Biellman.

The best bet among the Japanese ladies is Miki Ando who is consistent on her 3-3s and is working with a choreographer who works with the skater to choreograph a program. I like TT's programs, however I get the impression that she choreographs different variations of the same program for all of her skaters and doesn't create choreo to suit the skater as an individual.

I will also add that Shizuka doesn't really want to win an OGM. I get the feeling that she is skating more for enjoyment/camaraderie with her teammates than for glory.

R.D. · Sep 20, 2005

A good choreographer would take that into account and figure out a different way for the skater to get points but TT doesn't do that. Looking at the COP, there are lots of ways for skaters to up their levels in spins without doing a Biellman.

I see what you mean here, but I think we have to keep in mind that this system is new to everybody, so there's an adjustment period. I don't think there really are any "experts" (save the people who devised the system) when it comes to the Cop RIGHT NOW because it's so new. But when you develop a generation of skaters/choreographers/coaches who have dealt with the system THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS, then you will start to see a difference in content. JMO.

soogar · Sep 20, 2005

Red Dog said:
I see what you mean here, but I think we have to keep in mind that this system is new to everybody, so there's an adjustment period. I don't think there really are any "experts" (save the people who devised the system) when it comes to the Cop RIGHT NOW because it's so new. But when you develop a generation of skaters/choreographers/coaches who have dealt with the system THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS, then you will start to see a difference in content. JMO.

TT has choreographed the same program for almost her entire career. Twizzles into a jump? She's been doing that ever since she's had Kulik. TT's singles programs look like dance programs with jumps. Not that I think that's a bad thing, but it's very important that the skater be able to perform the jumps with all those setups. What saved Alexei was that Morozov worked with him on his programs therefore they were more spare and allowed for jump setups. Shizuka's 2004 program was fabulous (also by Morozov) and she was able to properly set up her jumps. While I enjoyed her R&J program, Shizuka was never able to get any kind of consistency with that program.

Vash01 · Sep 21, 2005

Shizuka never looked comfortable with the R&J program the way she did with Turandot. She needs to get back to that form and forget about the Biellman.

antmanb · Sep 21, 2005

Red Dog said:
I see what you mean here, but I think we have to keep in mind that this system is new to everybody, so there's an adjustment period. I don't think there really are any "experts" (save the people who devised the system) when it comes to the Cop RIGHT NOW because it's so new. But when you develop a generation of skaters/choreographers/coaches who have dealt with the system THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS, then you will start to see a difference in content. JMO.

I agree with this statement and would only add to it by saying what is the one thing we know about the system for sure? The fact that judges are not freely giving +GOEs to simpler elements done exceptionally well - they are only rewarding the difficult things done sloppily better than the simpler things done well, in that respect i think Arakawa is right to be trying the Biellmann. Furthermore we also notice that the more technically diffcult a program is the higher the PCS scores the judges are giving, so the other thing we know for sure is go for more difficult elements to warrant the higher PCS scores.

Ant

soogar · Sep 21, 2005

http://s41.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1E0C3EXQGIZ7728R007U2KOVH0

Japanese news did a profile on Shizuka ( I have no clue what she's saying) but there are a ton of replays of Shiz's Biellman. You'd think that she was nailing a quad the way they're showing that spin. She looks pretty good but I suspect that she always looks good in practice.

I can barely understand a word TT is saying to Shiz and she's speaking English :laugh:

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Arakawa coming back stronger than ever?

R.D.

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