How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

gkelly · Nov 29, 2010

Mathman said:
That is why it seems strange to me that they took pains to list, in decreasing order of importance, exactly what other competitions are to be weighed. In case of injury to a "dominant skater" they already have that covered.

In 2005-06 Michelle Kwan did not skate in any events at all. (Except the Marshall's phone-in-the-vote special in December, where she was so crippled up with her hip injury that she could hardly walk, much less skate. She won anyway. ) her only official credential for being considered for the Olympic team was her fourth place finish at 2005 Worlds.

The USFSA did not need any prioritized lists. They just pulled out the Kwan rule -- Michelle goes where she wants, the rest of y'all stay home. :yes:

But they might have been a bit less quick to give her that spot if the order of finish at Nationals had been, say,
1. Meissner or Hughes
2. Czisny
3. Cohen

Most of the time dilemma situations won't arise -- the obvious team will match the top finishers at Nationals, or the Nationals results with a strong veteran who withdrew replacing a much-less-experienced third-place finisher will be no worse than any other possible team they could put together. But when dilemmas do occur, it's good to have written guidelines rather than just gut feelings to rely on.

Layfan · Nov 29, 2010

I think the rules are there mainly to give them some discretion for the second and third spot if a strong competitor can't start or finish at Nationals, not to choose between closely ranked skaters who do finish at Nationals.

It doesn't count for nothing, but it only counts in unusual circumstances.

I was going to bring up the same thing. I agree - it's not that it never counts but I always thought it was in place for circumstances in which a skater has been strong all season long and had some bizarre flub at nationals.

gkelly said:
YOU may always think of Europeans as a sort of national, but the ISU certainly doesn't! It's their oldest championship. Some years or some decades in some disciplines it has a deeper field than the strongest non-European nationals; other years it's weaker.

In the days of the Soviet Union, the depth of field in the couples discipline was much stronger at Soviet Nationals than at Euros or at US Nationals.

The official equivalent of Europeans is now Four Continents. Again, the strength of the respective fields varies from year to year. Euros and 4Cs should count equally toward Worlds qualifying as far as the ISU is concerned. Currently they equally don't count at all, but there have been proposals to use them as qualifiers in one way or another.

I wasn't trying to insult Euros or anything. I was just answering off the top my head to blade's suggestion that the the 10th place Euro finisher should automatically get to go to worlds which seems a bit unfair to the 10th place American or Japanese skater in this day and age. And also to the American and Japanese skaters in general since the Europeans would have this extra way of qualifying.

I was assuming that Blades was suggesting a change in ISU rules.

Or maybe I misunderstood and Blades was suggesting that European skaters only get to go to worlds if they finish in the top 10 at Euros? i.e. it's not enough to be the British champion?

You bring up a good point about how the depth in each region/country changes over time so these types of changes would be very difficult to implement.

Suddenly, Joe's suggestion about having some sort longer path to the worlds - a la GP style or something along those lines - seems like the best idea if you really want the best skaters at worlds and not just a wide representations of countries.

Layfan · Nov 29, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
The Europeans wouldn't get an extra way of qualifying - people who aren't European get to qualify at Four Continents. The amount of skaters who qualify at each event could also vary depending on the average World standing of the competitors at each event, to allow for a more level playing field.

And to ensure that strong countries don't just send all of their lesser skaters to Four Continents (or even Europeans), leaving out everyone who has already qualified for Worlds, it should be mandatory that at least one skater who finished in the top 2 at Nationals, or was in the top 2 of their country in terms of results at the current season's Grand Prix, is sent to Four Continents/Europeans. If one of those skaters is not sent, then the country forfeits that spot at Four Continents/Europeans.

oh, I get it. (Duh, sorry)

Well, what I like about these suggestions is that gives so much more importance to these international events, which I just think would make figure skating so much more exciting to watch throughout the year.
It would diminish the importance of U.S. nationals, I suppose, although not completely if it determines who they get to send to FC/Euros.

gkelly · Nov 29, 2010

Layfan said:
I was going to bring up the same thing. I agree - it's not that it never counts but I always thought it was in place for circumstances in which a skater has been strong all season long and had some bizarre flub at nationals.

Well, yeah, but if the flub is such that they actually are able to finish both programs and just happen to end up off the podium, I think it would be a case of too bad, better luck next year . . . unless the bizarreness of the flub was obviously not the skater's fault.

I wasn't trying to insult Euros or anything. I was just answering off the top my head to blade's suggestion that the the 10th place Euro finisher should automatically get to go to worlds which seems a bit unfair to the 10th place American or Japanese skater in this day and age.

Blades said 10th place Euro or 4Cs finisher. That's comparable, more or less.

Is the 10th place US dance team really comparable to the 10th place Euro team?
Japan doesn't even have a 10th place dance team.

Suddenly, Joe's suggestion about having some sort longer path to the worlds - a la GP style or something along those lines - seems like the best idea if you really want the best skaters at worlds and not just a wide representations of countries.

Anyway, is this thread supposed to be about how the ISU decides how many skaters from each country can compete at Worlds and how those skaters might be chosen based on international results instead of or in addition to federation discretion?

Or is it supposed to be about how the US federation should exercise that discretion given the existing ISU rules?

Layfan · Nov 29, 2010

gkelly said:
Well, yeah, but if the flub is such that they actually are able to finish both programs and just happen to end up off the podium, I think it would be a case of too bad, better luck next year . . . unless the bizarreness of the flub was obviously not the skater's fault.

Blades said 10th place Euro or 4Cs finisher. That's comparable, more or less.

Is the 10th place US dance team really comparable to the 10th place Euro team?
Japan doesn't even have a 10th place dance team.

Anyway, is this thread supposed to be about how the ISU decides how many skaters from each country can compete at Worlds and how those skaters might be chosen based on international results instead of or in addition to federation discretion?

Or is it supposed to be about how the US federation should exercise that discretion given the existing ISU rules?

I definitely meant singles, not dance or pairs. But anyway, I already acknowledged my mistake re FC above. (We were writing at the same time.)

Well, yeah, but if the flub is such that they actually are able to finish both programs and just happen to end up off the podium, I think it would be a case of too bad, better luck next year . . . unless the bizarreness of the flub was obviously not the skater's fault.

I tend to agree. Competition is competition.

Blades of Passion · Nov 29, 2010

Layfan said:
Well, what I like about these suggestions is that gives so much more importance to these international events, which I just think would make figure skating so much more exciting to watch throughout the year.
It would diminish the importance of U.S. nationals, I suppose, although not completely if it determines who they get to send to FC/Euros.

Yeah it would make me a little sad that U.S. Nationals would become less important, since it has such a rich history.

But Four Continents (and Grand Prix events) would become more important and it would be so much more fair to the athletes in countries with deep fields.

Or maybe actually there should be multiple criteria that a skater has to achieve. Achieve any 2 out of the following: medalling at a GP event (can count multiple times), medalling at Nationals, a respectable finish at 4CC/Euros, or top 10 at the previous Worlds. Then Nationals would still retain more importance but obviously strong skaters wouldn't be left off World teams just because their National team is so deep.

Violet Bliss · Nov 29, 2010

With a disclaimer that I'm no expert in how the US Federation chooses their representing skaters to Worlds, I nonethelss have $.02 worth of thoughts to add to, or pollute, the discussion if y'all would excuse me. :biggrin:

In cases when there is an outstanding skater in the field who would unquestionably be going to the Worlds for his/her country, e.g. Plushenko and Chan, the national judges tend to inflat the scores, at least ahead of the Olympics, to boost such skaters' ice cred with no effect on the selection or ISU standings. In situation as current American Ladies field, if the National is to be the only selection criterion for Worlds team members, wouldn't the judging be influenced by which skaters are considered better chances at Worlds? Would judges more likely to inflat their favorites' scores for national interests? Would a wider consideration including international results ensure a fairer judging at the National?

BTW, I would place more importance on international PCS because such scores are more dependable and less varied than TES which involve riskier elements, especially for current American Ladies.

Tonichelle · Nov 29, 2010

gkelly said:
What Tonichelle said.

I'm honestly shocked that I remembered that at all :laugh:

gkelly · Nov 29, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
Or maybe actually there should be multiple criteria that a skater has to achieve. Achieve any 2 out of the following: medalling at a GP event (can count multiple times), medalling at Nationals, a strong finish at 4CC/Euros, or top 10 at the previous Worlds. Then Nationals would still retain more importance but obviously strong skaters wouldn't be left off World teams just because their National team is so deep.

I'm confused -- are you talking about ISU rules/criteria or US Figure Skating rules/criteria?

If the ISU changes how they allow skaters to qualify for Worlds or how federations are allowed to choose their teams, then obviously USFS would have to change their own rules. But I don't think the ISU would mandate anything about skaters competing at their country's nationals. So often the best skater in a country with a small field trains on another continent and doesn't always go "home" for nationals. (And southern hemisphere nationals are often many months removed from the main skating season.) Or there just aren't any other senior competitors in that discipline in that country, so there is no national competition.

If you're talking about how the US chooses its team, then obviously a strong finish at Euros would be irrelevant.

Blades of Passion · Nov 29, 2010

gkelly said:
I'm confused -- are you talking about ISU rules/criteria or US Figure Skating rules/criteria?

If you're talking about how the US chooses its team, then obviously a strong finish at Euros would be irrelevant.

I'm talking about ISU rules. Countries shouldn't choose which of their skaters go to Worlds (outside of how they score their skaters at Nationals and who gets chosen for Europeans/4 continents). You should get to go to Worlds based upon what you have achieved, with no limit on the number of skaters from a single country that can qualify.

Mathman · Nov 29, 2010

Sylvia said:
Prior to 2008 Nationals, Katrina Hacker's international experience consisted of 2005 Triglav Trophy (spring developmental comp. after she won the Novice bronze at 2005 Nationals) and one JGP in the fall of 2006 (5th place). Hacker did not qualify for 2007 Nationals in her first attempt as a senior. Meissner had qualified for the Senior Grand Prix Final in the fall of 2007 with a gold and silver, and even though she finished 6th/last at the Final, it was not surprising to me that USFS' International Committee considered her international record in selecting Meissner for Worlds over Hacker who was sent to Four Continents (as her first senior international) instead.

I have since wondered whether the USFSA is a little bit ashamed of that decision. Like they sold their soul to the Devil in exchange for the deceptive promise of better results at worlds.

What profits a federation if it wins ever so many championships, but relinquishes its principles?

wallylutz · Nov 29, 2010

gkelly said:
The official equivalent of Europeans is now Four Continents. Again, the strength of the respective fields varies from year to year. Euros and 4Cs should count equally toward Worlds qualifying as far as the ISU is concerned. Currently they equally don't count at all, but there have been proposals to use them as qualifiers in one way or another.

Yes, I have hoped to see World spots qualified through 4CC and Euros for years.

Mathman · Nov 29, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
I'm talking about ISU rules. Countries shouldn't choose which of their skaters go to Worlds...

It is my impression -- I might be wrong -- that there has been and is an ongoing struggle for power within the ISU between Cinquanta and his administrative aparatus on the one side and the heads of the member federations on the other.

The biggest coup on the Cinquanta side was the idea of the technical specialists. This took the lion's share of the judging out of the hands of the judges (appointed by their individual federations) and put it into the hands of the tech specialists, who work directly for the ISU. The Salt lake Cuty judging tempest-in-a-teapot gave Cinquanta the opportunity to say -- "See, it's those rascally federations who are making their judges cheat. Let's get more control into the hands of the ISU President instead."

I note that little by little more decision-making power is given to the tech specialists at the expense of the authority of the judges. (Like, if the tech specialist calls "e" then the judges must do this or that in their GOEs.)

The suggestion that national federations don't send skaters to worlds, but rather skaters are invited to worlds by the ISU, following certain ISU-established criteria, would be the final nail in the coffin of the national federations and a triumphant coup for Cinquanta. (Think King John versus the English nobility at the time of the Magna Carta, fighting over who would rule the serfs ( = skaters )

. )

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 29, 2010

Mathman said:
Personally, I don't think the USFSA should go the route of the French or Russian federation, where Piseev or Gailhaguet or some committee meeting behid closed doors can just send the skater whose coach has the most political pull within the federation.

I would not like to see a system where the committee can just say, you go to worlds, you stay home, on the basis of personal whim.

The advantage of the winner-take-all National Championship is (assuming unbiased judging) that it is cut and dried. The skaters know exactly what they have to do to make the World team, no politicking in the hallway.

However, a point system in which a skater gets credit toward making the world team by virtue of placements at international competitions would be OK, as long as the criteria are precisely delineated in advance and not dependent upon being the current darling of the powers that be.

So much of this is assumption. There is no basis for what the French, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, or Canadians do behind closed doors. We de not have wikileaks.
Why the conspiracy theory of politicking? If you have ever been in any competition (even a Final exam in school) you know there can be a bad day for being tested.

What if Mirai finds herself again at 4th place at Nationals? Should we just eliminate her for Worlds? What if another skater who never placed more than 4th in previous competitions suddenly has a lucky skate, she we send her to represent the USA?

The point system suggested is better than the one-shot-Nats to make the decision, but there could be another for the Committee to work on.

The Japanese have 3 great male skaters and perhaps a one shot competition could pick their team, but that's for Japan to decide.

Mathman · Nov 29, 2010

Joesitz said:
Why the conspiracy theory of politicking?

I have just never liked the idea of making decisions by secret committee. Let the results be determined on the field of play in public view.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 29, 2010

gkelly said:
I think it's good to have some flexibility in the team selection for two reasons:

*to allow for extraordinary circumstances in which the clear leader of the field is unable to compete at Nationals for some reason (e.g., temporary acute illness or minor injury that will almost certainly be resolved in plenty of time for Worlds) or to finish the competition, perhaps for a fluke reason like breaking a blade during or right before the performance

*to discourage judges from propping up favorites on the theory that choosing a world team with their marks is more important than just judging what they see on the ice that day

But there needs to be a clear sense that Nationals results count and that a skater who is eligible for Worlds will not be left off the team in favor of someone they defeat at Nationals. I can only think of two times when that has happened: Paul Wylie in 1992 and Katrina Hacker in 2008.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Nationals should not figure in the selection, but there should be a seasonal body of work before the Worlds that should count toward selecting the Team. 4CC (that'll get them there), maybe a "B" Summer comp, definitely the GPs as well as last years Worlds. You would have to be blind not to know who are the most competitively best skaters the US has. Why put so much power in the one-shot Nats?

wallylutz · Nov 29, 2010

SkateFiguring said:
In situation as current American Ladies field, if the National is to be the only selection criterion for Worlds team members, wouldn't the judging be influenced by which skaters are considered better chances at Worlds? Would judges more likely to inflat their favorites' scores for national interests? Would a wider consideration including international results ensure a fairer judging at the National?

In singles skating, unless you have a single dominant national skater like Michelle Kwan or right now in Canada, Patrick Chan or Plushenko in Russia, the nationals tend to be fairly apolitical minus whatever connections judges may have have with specific skater. In a wide open field, nationals tend to be the sole qualifier. It's harder to play favorites unless the contest is very, very close, e.g. Weir vs. Lysacek in 2008 US Nationals. However, if a skater has had some notable success internationaly, it could impact the judges' overall consideration, e.g. Jeremy Abbott's GPf wins.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 29, 2010

Mathman said:
I have just never liked the idea of making decisions by secret committee. Let the results be determined on the field of play in public view.

OK but let's have a series of comps to reach that decision and forget about secret committee meetings. As I said above, we know who the best skaters are for the Team before the Selecction Committe meets.

janetfan · Nov 29, 2010

Joesitz said:
I don't think anyone is saying that the Nationals should not figure in the selection, but there should be a seasonal body of work before the Worlds that should count toward selecting the Team. 4CC (that'll get them there), maybe a "B" Summer comp, definitely the GPs as well as last years Worlds. You would have to be blind not to know who are the most competitively best skaters the US has. Why put so much power in the one-shot Nats?

Because that is sporting - for a winner take all competition.
I hate the idea of ruining Natls and letting other events - so typically unbalanced from a competitive nature - to be determing our Natl team.

I loved it last season when Mr Nicks said "Sasha knows what is on the line." Finish 1st or 2nd and you go to the Olympics. Anything else is will not do. :yes:

Many fans worried that Sasha might get "gifted" by a scenario - perhaps by what Joe is implying - that other considerations would play a part in the decision.

Phooey on that - and when US Skating gives up Natls as the sole the criteria for making Natl teams is the day I wil lstop following skating.

Give me Natls that mean everything or give me death.

No way do I want to send a 6th place finisher at Natls like Japan did with Miki - and then see her finish 16th at the Olympics. A more unfair and unsporting and uncompetitive scenario I can not imagine.

wallylutz · Nov 29, 2010

U.S. currently strikes a good balance in World / Olympic team selection where only the National Champion is guaranteed a spot. In most cases, the 2nd and 3rd spot also went to the Silver and Bronze medalists and they have been relatively uncontroversial. Kimmie being a former World Champion got a bye over a skater who was relatively unproven - most people wouldn't consider that as a controversial. Only in 2009 when Weir was not selected due to his 5th place finish that there was anything remotely controversial in the last few years. However, why should the US Silver Medalist vacate himself to someone who finished 5th? If it had been a 3rd place to 4th and separated by a few points in total - maybe - an argument can be made. Clearly, it wouldn't have been fair to Brandon Mroz even if we accept Nationals doesn't count for everything.

How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

gkelly

Layfan

Layfan

gkelly

Layfan

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Violet Bliss

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

gkelly

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Mathman

wallylutz

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

wallylutz

Joesitz (RIP)

janetfan

Match Penalty

wallylutz

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