Random Figure Skating Questions

AsadaFanBoy · Mar 29, 2015

Vanshilar said:
I'm kind of confused while watching Tuktamysheva's Worlds FS (congratulations!). I don't know if the rules changed this season, but I thought that for jump combinations, the jumps have to be linked by the same edge. Yet Tuktamysheva faltered a bit on landing her initial lutz, and did two 3-turns before her double toe loop coming out of that, and the same thing between her triple toe loops. Yet they were still scored as combinations. Why?

Third that question. I found it strange that she didn't perform a clean triple-triple or 3-2-2. And scored that high.

It's not good for the sport if the message is that you can be as sloppy as you want as long as you pull off a big high risk move.

gkelly · Mar 29, 2015

Vanshilar said:
I'm kind of confused while watching Tuktamysheva's Worlds FS (congratulations!). I don't know if the rules changed this season, but I thought that for jump combinations, the jumps have to be linked by the same edge. Yet Tuktamysheva faltered a bit on landing her initial lutz, and did two 3-turns before her double toe loop coming out of that, and the same thing between her triple toe loops. Yet they were still scored as combinations. Why?

According to the Technical Panel Handbook Singles Skating Version 2014/2015 (available at http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pa...ce/isu-judging-system/single-and-pair-skating), "In a jump combination the landing foot of a jump is the take off foot of the next jump. One full revolution on the ice between the jumps (free foot can touch the ice, but no weight transfer) keeps the element in the frame of the definition of a jump combination."

If the underlined phrases are changes from the previous version, then the rule has changed somewhat this year. Would have to search further for how it was defined in previous years.

According to the judges' guidelines for establishing GOE for errors, "2 three turns in between (jump combo)" gets a -2 reduction in the GOE and the final GOE must be in the minuses.

I see in the protocol that two judges did give +1 instead of -1 to Tuktamysheva's 3Lz+2T+2Lo, and one of those judges gave 0 to her 3T+3T, so those scores were mistaken. The preponderance of -1s for the first combo and -1s and -2s for the second were appropriate.

AsadaFanBoy said:
It's not good for the sport if the message is that you can be as sloppy as you want as long as you pull off a big high risk move.

None of the women skated a squeaky clean free skate.

When everyone has at least one or two flaws, then the one with the smallest/fewest flaws and the most/best good stuff will score highest.

If the rule was that no one with any visible errors or negative GOEs was allowed to win, then no one would win this event or many others.

peg · Mar 29, 2015

moriel said:
And from the depths of the thread, the stress in Tuktamysheva is on the first A: TuktAmysheva
http://topspb.tv/programs/v12369/ around 9:20

Thank you!!

AsadaFanBoy · Mar 30, 2015

gkelly said:
According to the Technical Panel Handbook Singles Skating Version 2014/2015 (available at http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pa...ce/isu-judging-system/single-and-pair-skating), "In a jump combination the landing foot of a jump is the take off foot of the next jump. One full revolution on the ice between the jumps (free foot can touch the ice, but no weight transfer) keeps the element in the frame of the definition of a jump combination."

If the underlined phrases are changes from the previous version, then the rule has changed somewhat this year. Would have to search further for how it was defined in previous years.

According to the judges' guidelines for establishing GOE for errors, "2 three turns in between (jump combo)" gets a -2 reduction in the GOE and the final GOE must be in the minuses.

I see in the protocol that two judges did give +1 instead of -1 to Tuktamysheva's 3Lz+2T+2Lo, and one of those judges gave 0 to her 3T+3T, so those scores were mistaken. The preponderance of -1s for the first combo and -1s and -2s for the second were appropriate.

None of the women skated a squeaky clean free skate.

When everyone has at least one or two flaws, then the one with the smallest/fewest flaws and the most/best good stuff will score highest.

If the rule was that no one with any visible errors or negative GOEs was allowed to win, then no one would win this event or many others.

Did I say allowed to win? No, I didn't now did I.

Your elements should be judged fairly. Which part of that was unclear for you?

And you should read what's there and not put words in the mouths of others.

apgold · Mar 30, 2015

I have a stupid question. Now that the season is essentially over, do the elite skaters have any downtime or do they go straight into preparing for next season?

I guess it depends on the skater, or whether or not they went to Worlds. I would imagine that after the pressure of competition, it would be nice to take a holiday or break for at least a couple of weeks before going back into the grind.

uhh · Mar 30, 2015

apgold said:
I have a stupid question. Now that the season is essentially over, do the elite skaters have any downtime or do they go straight into preparing for next season?

I guess it depends on the skater, or whether or not they went to Worlds. I would imagine that after the pressure of competition, it would be nice to take a holiday or break for at least a couple of weeks before going back into the grind.

It depends for each skater. Some will go straight into preparing new programs, some will have a break now, some will keep training but at a reduced level. When my coach was competing, they'd spend the month after worlds just going back to basics, working on stroking, edges & so on, then have a break and start the new programs in June. It might also depend on if they want to work with anyone in particular during the off season. For example, Kustarova says her group would normally have a break now, and begin training properly again for new programs in May. However, the choreographer Ilinykh & Zhiganshin want to work with is only available in April, so they will make their new programs then, have some holiday in May and then go back to work.

Rissa · Mar 30, 2015

AsadaFanBoy said:
Did I say allowed to win? No, I didn't now did I.

Your elements should be judged fairly. Which part of that was unclear for you?

And you should read what's there and not put words in the mouths of others.

Wow. You might want to consider stopping trolling if you want any meaningful discourse.

You didn't say "allowed to win" but you said "can be as sloppy as you want" which in the context of the ladies competition and the fact that nobody was flawless may be interpreted in many ways. In order to be understood exactly the way want, be more precise, less outraged.

gkelly didn't pass any judgement on whether any particular element was judged fairly or not and has given you an exhaustive and informative answer to your question, going as far as to pull out the official rules for you. If something is still unclear to you, perhaps ask politely and you might even learn something.

Vanshilar · Mar 30, 2015

gkelly said:
According to the Technical Panel Handbook Singles Skating Version 2014/2015 (available at http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pa...ce/isu-judging-system/single-and-pair-skating), "In a jump combination the landing foot of a jump is the take off foot of the next jump. One full revolution on the ice between the jumps (free foot can touch the ice, but no weight transfer) keeps the element in the frame of the definition of a jump combination."

If the underlined phrases are changes from the previous version, then the rule has changed somewhat this year. Would have to search further for how it was defined in previous years.

According to the judges' guidelines for establishing GOE for errors, "2 three turns in between (jump combo)" gets a -2 reduction in the GOE and the final GOE must be in the minuses.

Hmm didn't know that. Looking around, the 2013/2014 version states "In a jump combination the landing foot of a jump is the take off foot of the next jump. A three turn on one foot between the jumps without touching the ice with the free foot (or even with a touch, but no weight transfer) keeps the element in the frame of this definition allowing still to call it a combination (with an error)." I guess maybe the change is from a single three-turn, i.e. perhaps if the skater landed under-rotated (i.e. facing forward), to a full revolution, or it's just clarifying that three-turns between jumps will still render the jumps a combination, up to one revolution on the ice.

I'm trying to think of how a skater might use this to their advantage though, but coming up short. Perhaps they can take a full revolution in between jumps to have a better chance of doing a full triple loop without under-rotation? Or perhaps, they could do a jump - half loop - single three-turn - axel this way to not incur the +SEQ penalty? Except the rules for the Short Program in the 2013/2014 version states "If an Axel type jump immediately follows any other jump (without any hops, mazurkas, unlisted jumps), this will also be considered as a jump sequence." although I don't see this in the 2014/2015 version. I guess the mandatory negative GOE makes it so that skaters shouldn't intentionally attempt this, but it allows them to save a combination (as in the case here) when the landing is a bit shaky. Just I hadn't particularly noticed this before. Thanks for the response!

Scovies · Mar 30, 2015

moriel said:
Stupid question: why a spin is almost always the ending element? I kind of understand it makes a final point, but why always?

A few reasons, but generally a spin is a nice, artistic way to end a program -- especially in the 6.0 days, because most of the music ends on a flourish and what better way to accentuate that than a blurred scratch spin? It still works well in IJS. Skaters usually won't end with a jump because 1) it's exhausting to do a jump that late in a program, and 2) it typically doesn't match the structure of the music.

Joshua Farris' SP is a good example of a program that doesn't end with a spin, but he also had a genius choreographer (Buttle) and willingness to do a triple lutz with 10 seconds left in the program. It's a terrific artistic choice, but I don't blame any skater who wants to get their jumps out of the way earlier.

cl2 · Mar 31, 2015

Scovies said:
A few reasons, but generally a spin is a nice, artistic way to end a program -- especially in the 6.0 days, because most of the music ends on a flourish and what better way to accentuate that than a blurred scratch spin? It still works well in IJS. Skaters usually won't end with a jump because 1) it's exhausting to do a jump that late in a program, and 2) it typically doesn't match the structure of the music.

Joshua Farris' SP is a good example of a program that doesn't end with a spin, but he also had a genius choreographer (Buttle) and willingness to do a triple lutz with 10 seconds left in the program. It's a terrific artistic choice, but I don't blame any skater who wants to get their jumps out of the way earlier.

Also, IIRC, last season Kostner did a 3S right into her ending pose, which was quite effective. Except that time when she fell on the 3S. She stopped doing it later in the season I think.

moriel · Mar 31, 2015

Hmm thinking of it, Stolbova/Klimov had that "trademark" throw in the end too, which looked pretty epic (even when failed =D)

Caustica · Mar 31, 2015

Why is the loop jump sometimes shortened to 'R' instead of 'Lo'? E.g. 3R. Where does the R come from?!

cl2 · Mar 31, 2015

Caustica said:
Why is the loop jump sometimes shortened to 'R' instead of 'Lo'? E.g. 3R. Where does the R come from?!

In some countries (mainly in Europe), the loop jump is called the Rittberger, after its inventor.

Caustica · Mar 31, 2015

cl2 said:
In some countries (mainly in Europe), the loop jump is called the Rittberger, after its inventor.

Ahh I see thanks!

ice coverage · Apr 5, 2015

iluvtodd said:
Does anyone know who has been nominated/will be inducted into the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame @ this coming Worlds?

Still hoping someone can answer my question about the USFS ad (the one that begins with Ashley in red, and ends with Christina Gao, with Tara L. saying "Everyone should give figure skating a try"). Who is the skater who talks about getting up after you fall? It sounds like Nicole Bobek, but I doubt it's her. My guess is that it's one of the current eligible skaters.

Re World Figure Skating Hall of Fame:
International Figure Skating had the link to the following press release.

http://www.worldskatingmuseum.org/documents/2015WHOFpressrelease.pdf

ETA, I see the same press release is on icenetwork.

Excerpt:
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado, USA (April 3, 2015) – Russian Olympic champions Artur Dmitriev and pairs partners Natalia Mishkutionok and Oksana Kazakova lead a class of eight new inductees to the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame, nominating chair Lawrence Mondschein announced today. Also elected was Italy’s Sonia Bianchetti Garbato, who joins “Legends” June Markham and Doreen Denny of Great Britain, Austria’s Eduard Engelmann Jr. and Great Britain’s Henry Eugene Vandervell, who both are honored posthumously.

BTW, re the USFS promo:
Because of this thread, I paid extra-close attention when it aired twice during the first of NBC's Worlds telecasts.

Just my two cents:
In another post, someone (maybe you??) referred to Max Aaron's voice in the promo. But I had never thought that it was Max's voice (which is quite distinctive, IMO), and I still do not. To my ears, it always has sounded like Lysacek's voice in that part.
And I disagree with the people who think that Gracie Gold's voice is in the promo. Just don't hear any resemblance at all.

iluvtodd · Apr 6, 2015

golden411, thanks for the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame info!

I was the one who suggesting it was Max (& still think it's him), although I can see why you might think it is Evan's voice. I do think that Graice's speaking voice has a higher pitch than the voice that we hear in the promo. I don't want to "obsess" over who is speaking in the promo (and I hope I didn't come across that way in this thread), and I do thank everyone who gave their input into the conversation about it.

kinoriH · Apr 6, 2015

Does anybody know any details about All That Skate 2015? if it's even planned..

seabm7 · Apr 6, 2015

kinoriH said:
Does anybody know any details about All That Skate 2015? if it's even planned..

There has been no announcement on All That Skate 2015.

ice coverage · Apr 6, 2015

iluvtodd said:
golden411, thanks for the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame info!

... I don't want to "obsess" over who is speaking in the promo (and I hope I didn't come across that way in this thread), and I do thank everyone who gave their input into the conversation about it.

No worries, ILT -- and I hope you don't think I was obsessing over the promo either

.

Hadn't bothered earlier to post separately about the Worlds telecast. Was just easy to piggyback a mention onto my answer re the Hall of Fame :yes:.

iluvtodd · Apr 7, 2015

^ All is good, golden411. I :love:

your "Keep Calm" avatar!

Random Figure Skating Questions

AsadaFanBoy

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peg

AsadaFanBoy

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uhh

Rissa

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cl2

moriel

Caustica

cl2

Caustica

ice coverage

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kinoriH

seabm7

ice coverage

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