State of the U.S. Men's Figure Skating for 2014-15

yyyskate · Jan 24, 2015

Boyang just posted a gigantic 4LZ in his practice, it is the biggest jump I have either seen, nearly as high as his body length!!!!!!!
and also don't forget Han.

Okay, this has nothing to do with this thread, but I cannot find a place to share this

GGFan · Jan 24, 2015

I also think that the quad talk gets conflated with the of cutthroat nature of the US men recently. A quad for a quad's sake does not mean much to me, but wanting to be the best does. I wonder of USFS would benefit from some of the training camps that the US Women's Gymnastics team does. I think you're much more likely to improve if you have people pushing you more. I think we could do more to foster some Plushenko/Yagudin or Marlie/Voir kind of competition between our skaters (without fostering bad blood).

Crossover · Jan 24, 2015

yyyskate said:
Boyang just posted a gigantic 4LZ in his practice, it is the biggest jump I have either seen, nearly as high as his body length!!!!!!!
and also don't forget Han.

Okay, this has nothing to do with this thread, but I cannot find a place to share this

Can I see the video of Boyang's 4lz? I saw Adam Rippon's 4lz although it was underrotated a bit.
By the way, they're Chinese, and are Boyang supposed to compete for Junior World this year instead of senior World?

ice coverage · Jan 24, 2015

Mrs. P said:
I wonder when Jason said those quotes? Because his more recent quotes have more been along the lines of "I might try it at Worlds." He hasn't mentioned the whole summer thin in the presser.

She's pulling Jeremy's quotes from Sochi...so I can't help but wonder if the Jason quotes are from the past too.

ETA: Never mind. She must've interviewed him after the short program. Jason has been all over the place with the timing...

Maybe Jason mentioned the summer timeline in the mixed zone last night?
Hersh also referred to it in his post-SP report. The quote from the Hersh story:

Brown talked of trying it at low-level events next summer.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...-figure-skating-spt-0124-20150123-column.html (Jan 23)

If I recognized Brennan's voice correctly at the presser, she is the one who asked the question to which Abbott replied (I'm paraphrasing), "To be blunt, this is a rather tired topic (re quads)."

http://web.icenetwork.com/video/?content_id=37168407

So maybe Brennan's article is partly pushback, so to speak, against Abbott's reply specifically to her (altho' in the setting of the public presser).

Mrs. P · Jan 24, 2015

GGFan said:
I also think that the quad talk gets conflated with the of cutthroat nature of the US men recently. A quad for a quad's sake does not mean much to me, but wanting to be the best does. I wonder of USFS would benefit from some of the training camps that the US Women's Gymnastics team does. I think you're much more likely to improve if you have people pushing you more. I think we could do more to foster some Plushenko/Yagudin or Marlie/Voir kind of competition between our skaters (without fostering bad blood).

With someone like Jason, however, I don't the fact that others are doing quad isn't going to prompt him to rush his plans. When he was a junior and Joshua Farris was doing the 3A consistently and he wasn't, it didn't necessarily make him go out and rush the process. His strategy, was to focus on what he could do for the time being until the 3A was soup. Sometimes that strategy worked. Sometimes it didn't.

GGFan · Jan 24, 2015

Mrs. P said:
With someone like Jason, however, I don't the fact that others are doing quad isn't going to prompt him to rush his plans. When he was a junior and Joshua Farris was doing the 3A consistently and he wasn't, it didn't necessarily make him go out and rush the process. His strategy, was to focus on what he could do for the time being until the 3A was soup. Sometimes that strategy worked. Sometimes it didn't.

Oh I agree with you. I'm just wondering if there would be more subtle psychological benefits in general (and here I'm not specifically thinking about Jason). I guess I'm thinking about Elvis' TSL interview. I think there's something to that idea of having to push yourself beyond your limits to succeed at the Olympic medalist level. I wonder if one of the ways of doing that is to more consistently having the US men train together and push each other.

yyyskate · Jan 24, 2015

inside edges said:
Can I see the video of Boyang's 4lz? I saw Adam Rippon's 4lz although it was underrotated a bit.
By the way, they're Chinese, and are Boyang supposed to compete for Junior World this year instead of senior World?

I dont know, Boyang probably will go to junior?, but he just won Chinese nationals and surpassed Han. But Han is still the no1 total package male skater from China.
I dont know how to link that clip. but I am sure soon it will be posted somewhere.
There has been clips of Boyang doing 4LZ coming out before and posted in this forum. pretty good quality.
but this one I just saw, is probably the biggest ever jump I have ever seen.

MoonlightSkater · Jan 24, 2015

GGFan said:
I also think that the quad talk gets conflated with the of cutthroat nature of the US men recently. A quad for a quad's sake does not mean much to me, but wanting to be the best does. I wonder of USFS would benefit from some of the training camps that the US Women's Gymnastics team does. I think you're much more likely to improve if you have people pushing you more. I think we could do more to foster some Plushenko/Yagudin or Marlie/Voir kind of competition between our skaters (without fostering bad blood).

On the one hand, I can see the value of this idea. I know Christy Krall has her own students, but I wonder if she'd be willing to host a jumps weekend every few months using her very nice software set up to help skaters analyze their movement. Artunian seems to be on to something with the jumps this year, too. Ouriashev seems to have fallen out of favor since Gracie's move, but he still clearly knows his jumps. Maybe a committee of these great jump coaches could put something together. Perhaps a strength and conditioning expert could also be there to advise coaches. This might be even more useful for the younger skaters than the older ones, really. Not all juvenile, intermediate, or novice skaters have access to the quality of coaching teams they might need to find their potential.

On the other hand, I feel like the US men have really upped their game in all of the aspects other than quads. The spins, footwork, transitions, and choreography I saw yesterday were spectacular. In this way they are really pushing themselves. When they do add more quads they'll already have a good foundation. Having better skating skills surely will help with the addition of new jumps, as well.

yyyskate · Jan 24, 2015

inside edges said:
Can I see the video of Boyang's 4lz? I saw Adam Rippon's 4lz although it was underrotated a bit.
By the way, they're Chinese, and are Boyang supposed to compete for Junior World this year instead of senior World?

okay found it in Shoma's fan thread, I knew I would find it there.

here it is for you
http://www.meipai.com/media/224186069

this little rivalry between Shoma and Boyang has been simmering for quite a while now. kinda cute

Mrs. P · Jan 24, 2015

MoonlightSkater said:
On the other hand, I feel like the US men have really upped their game in all of the aspects other than quads. The spins, footwork, transitions, and choreography I saw yesterday were spectacular. In this way they are really pushing themselves. When they do add more quads they'll already have a good foundation. Having better skating skills surely will help with the addition of new jumps, as well.

This is a good example of long-tail strategy:

In business, long tail is a phrase coined by Chris Anderson, in 2004. Anderson argued that products that are in low demand or have low sales volume can collectively make up a market share that rivals or exceeds the relatively few current bestsellers and blockbusters, but only if the store or distribution channel is large enough.

The quad is the "bestseller" or "blockbuster." Everything you mention here, spins, choreography, transitions, etc, is the "low-sales volume items" (since they are "low value times."

Some skaters have managed to sell blockbusters while maintaining a sizable volume of the other items. However, for the most part, a skater who consistently brings out those "low-sales volume" items can be successful if it's "distributed enough," i.e. the programs are cohesive and clean all of the time.

This has been Jason's (and his team's) m.o. since he was a was a Novice skater. I find it :laugh:

that people think he's suddenly going to just forsake a strategy that has worked for him in his career for the sake of a few people bugging him about one jump.

GGFan · Jan 24, 2015

MoonlightSkater said:
On the one hand, I can see the value of this idea. I know Christy Krall has her own students, but I wonder if she'd be willing to host a jumps weekend every few months using her very nice software set up to help skaters analyze their movement. Artunian seems to be on to something with the jumps this year, too. Ouriashev seems to have fallen out of favor since Gracie's move, but he still clearly knows his jumps. Maybe a committee of these great jump coaches could put something together. Perhaps a strength and conditioning expert could also be there to advise coaches. This might be even more useful for the younger skaters than the older ones, really. Not all juvenile, intermediate, or novice skaters have access to the quality of coaching teams they might need to find their potential.

On the other hand, I feel like the US men have really upped their game in all of the aspects other than quads. The spins, footwork, transitions, and choreography I saw yesterday were spectacular. In this way they are really pushing themselves. When they do add more quads they'll already have a good foundation. Having better skating skills surely will help with the addition of new jumps, as well.

I thought the short program was awesome. As I think more about it, I guess I want us to move away from the over reliance on individual coaches and the everyone should work on their own. If we are fielding a US team each year then everyone should be helping everyone. I'm sure that Frank Carroll could add something to Max's skating, Rafael could add something to Jason's etc. Why aren't we marshaling all of our resources to help our skaters improve? I want the US team to do well not just my favorite skater. I think an even better case can be made for the US Pairs. We're way behind the curve there.

Mrs. P · Jan 24, 2015

GGFan said:
I thought the short program was awesome. As I think more about it, I guess I want us to move away from the over reliance on individual coaches and the everyone should work on their own. If we are fielding a US team each year then everyone should be helping everyone. I'm sure that Frank Carroll could add something to Max's skating, Rafael could add something to Jason's etc. Why aren't we marshaling all of our resources to help our skaters improve? I want the US team to do well not just my favorite skater. I think an even better case can be made for the US Pairs. We're way behind the curve there.

Well Frank Carroll has taken on the role as an adviser for US Figure Skating. He's visited several skaters this season, including Max and Co in Colorado Springs.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...oll-to-Assist-with-Team-USA-Mentoring-Program

GGFan · Jan 24, 2015

Mrs. P said:
Well Frank Carroll has taken on the role as an adviser for US Figure Skating. He's visited several skaters this season, including Max and Co in Colorado Springs.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...oll-to-Assist-with-Team-USA-Mentoring-Program

That's great! Thanks for the link.

Crossover · Jan 24, 2015

yyyskate said:
okay found it in Shoma's fan thread, I knew I would find it there.
here it is for you
http://www.meipai.com/media/224186069

this little rivalry between Shoma and Boyang has been simmering for quite a while now. kinda cute

Thanks. I'm gonna copy and paste the link to the newly opened thread, "Team China". Let's use the thread for anything related to Chinese skaters from now on.

Krunchii · Jan 24, 2015

The international judges are all in Yuzuru and Javi's ballpark right now and there are also other Japanese and Russian men in the mix. The US men should just focus on keeping 3 spots. If Jason can consistently skate clean in the SP, he can skate later in the FS, same with Joshua, he can focus on a clean SP to put him later in the FS, if he can do a quad then he can be rewarded accordingly. If their scoring potential is around 86 without the quad it should safely put them somewhere around the second last group which isn't so bad. Only the beginning of the new Olympic cycle, they'v got time

Mrs. P · Jan 24, 2015

Krunchii said:
The international judges are all in Yuzuru and Javi's ballpark right now and there are also other Japanese and Russian men in the mix. The US men should just focus on keeping 3 spots. If Jason can consistently skate clean in the SP, he can skate later in the FS, same with Joshua, he can focus on a clean SP to put him later in the FS, if he can do a quad then he can be rewarded accordingly. If their scoring potential is around 86 without the quad it should safely put them somewhere around the second last group which isn't so bad. Only the beginning of the new Olympic cycle, they'v got time

86 might even put them in the final group, like it did for Jason at the Olympics.

FWIW, the scoring range for the final group at Worlds last year was 85.54-98.21. Jason is more likely to get there has he will probably in a later group in the SP. Josh's WR suffered due to his injury, so he will probably skate earlier.

Also, I just updated my score averages for the men in the world. And surprisingly despite Jason's relative struggles this season, as far as overall scoring averages go, he's ranked 6th among all the men in the world, behind Fernandez, Hanyu, Kovtun, Machida and Mura.

Voronov, Ten, Aaron and Dornbush are right behind him. Kovtun is in 3rd, but only by about 5 points. So....FWIW.

Of course, that includes scores from the earlier Challenge Series, which he well in.

Without that, he's 9th. But the difference between 9th and 3rd is not insurmountable.

LRK · Jan 24, 2015

Mrs. P said:
86 might even put them in the final group, like it did for Jason at the Olympics.

FWIW, the scoring range for the final group at Worlds last year was 85.54-98.21. Jason is more likely to get there has he will probably in a later group in the SP. Josh's WR suffered due to his injury, so he will probably skate earlier.

Also, I just updated my score averages for the men in the world. And surprisingly despite Jason's relative struggles this season, as far as overall scoring averages go, he's ranked 6th among all the men in the world, behind Fernandez, Hanyu, Kovtun, Machida and Mura.

Voronov, Ten, Aaron and Dornbush are right behind him. Kovtun is in 3rd, but only by about 5 points. So....FWIW.

Of course, that includes scores from the earlier Challenge Series, which he well in.

Without that, he's 9th. But the difference between 9th and 3rd is not insurmountable.

Have you posted that somewhere, Mrs P? If you have, can you point me to it? Anyway, I'd often wished you'd do the sort of number-crunching for all the men that you do for the US men - but I imagine it would be a lot of work, and I haven't liked to impose by asking...

Mrs. P · Jan 24, 2015

LRK said:
Have you posted that somewhere, Mrs P? If you have, can you point me to it? Anyway, I'd often wished you'd do the sort of number-crunching for all the men that you do for the US men - but I imagine it would be a lot of work, and I haven't liked to impose by asking...

I haven't posted it yet; just been doing it little by little over time. I might post it after US Nationals and we enter Europeans.

HanDomi · Jan 24, 2015

Well, overall in terms of US skaters and quads topic the problem is that people think that they MUST win at world stage. It's easy to say but it's almost impossible right now to realize, because catching Hanyu technical level is quite impossible in short time, it must be someone who is somewhat junior right now like Shoma. But Hanyu is not staying in place either and is instantly upping his tech content which complicate things for others even more.

I would like to see quad from Jason and other skaters but it's not said that all skater can master quad because all can't, and one and eventwo quads are not enough right now to fight with Hanyu unless he bombs, or unless you are Patrick Chan and you have monster PCS to make up some points there and even in this case there is needed mistake or two from Hanyu...

US man with quad could be this year in contention in battle for even 3rd place at worlds, but I don't who would that be, and it's also many things must happen for this to happen

I think Joshua Farris talent wise balancing technical/components is propably the best right now, but he landed quad only once in competition long time ago so... unlikely to happen unfortunately. Jason is way more consistent than him without quad so..

LRK · Jan 24, 2015

Mrs. P said:
I haven't posted it yet; just been doing it little by little over time. I might post it after US Nationals and we enter Europeans.

I really hope you do, for I'd love to see it.

State of the U.S. Men's Figure Skating for 2014-15

yyyskate

GGFan

Crossover

All Hail the Queen

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

GGFan

yyyskate

MoonlightSkater

yyyskate

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

GGFan

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

GGFan

Crossover

All Hail the Queen

Krunchii

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

LRK

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

HanDomi

LRK

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