Copyright issues with skating music?

karne · Jun 22, 2015

cheerknithanson said:
I mean like I feel like artists need to take a deep breath and know that they're being respected and appreciated when skaters use their music to skate to for programs. Because to realize, out of all the songs, they picked that song...

Respect and appreciation don't put food on the table, kid.

dorispulaski said:
I know of only one case where an artist pulled the plug on some skaters.

Dominina & Shabalin pulled the music of a British performance artist off YouTube to use for part of their infamous aborigine OD in 2010. The artist was appalled to hear her music on a video of DomShabs' program. She was not upset about the money issue. She thought the program insulted people like her Tamil ancestors. She issued a public statement about it.

DomShabs and Linichuk had to scramble between Euros and Olympics to redo that section of the music.

Maybe they should have taken a moment to realise that maybe it was a sign the program was a load of insensitive racist rubbish that should never have seen the light of day. Was there anyone who wasn't offended by that program?

Scovies · Jun 22, 2015

I think there are different rules for licensing when it comes to dance/figure skating/etc.-type performances that are televised, so long as it in service of a non-profit organization, which I think the ISU technically is.

From an ASCAP document regarding music licensing:

Are there any exceptions to the requirement to obtain authorization for public performances?

The law provides a few strictly limited exemptions for performances in the course of worship services and performances in the course of faceto-face teaching activities of a non-profit educational institution. Purely non-profit performances may be exempt if (1) there is no direct or indirect commercial purpose; and (2) there is no payment to the performers, promoters or organizers; and (3) there is no admission charge, or if there is a charge, all proceeds after deduction of costs are used exclusively for educational, religious or charitable purposes.

I'm not sure if this is the case for figure skating (especially since top finishers at ISU events receive prize money), but it seems likely. I can't imagine how Jason Brown and Mae-Bernice could have skated to Prince's music otherwise, considering he doesn't license it for anything and has a team of lawyers that keeps his music off YouTube.

sabinfire · Jun 22, 2015

Being a musician is a dying career... virtually no one gets rich off making music anymore, unless you're Taylor Swift or a boy-band in their prime.

And even in those two cases, those acts generate a lot of their revenue off their personalities, marketing deals, merchandise, concert tickets, etc...

New generations are raised on plentiful digital music (mp3s, streaming) which may be perceived to have little to no financial 'value'. Between the attitudes of young music consumers and the old record executive fossils still stuck in the 90's, it's a wonder there's still a music industry in place.

One thing is for sure: People will always make music, whether or not they can profit from it.

Tavi... · Jun 22, 2015

cheerknithanson said:
I guess it makes sense for everything to run through a larger body like federations or promoters, given the complexities of TV and other viewing services like IceNetwork for some competitions. It's nice that the skaters can have creative freedom without worrying about paying.

I mean like I feel like artists need to take a deep breath and know that they're being respected and appreciated when skaters use their music to skate to for programs. Because to realize, out of all the songs, they picked that song...

Look, it really doesn't matter what you feel about it. The bottom line is that in the US as in most other countries, musical works and recorded performances are protected by copyright law.

For those who are interested, here is the current law:

http://copyright.gov/title17/

Owners or exclusive licensees of a copyrighted work have absolute control over who uses the work and how for a fixed period of time.

The courts have defined limited exceptions to this rule, called "fair use":

http://copyright.gov/fair-use/

Skating rinks obtain licenses from clearinghouse such as ASCAP and BMI for the music that is played at public sessions, during competitions, etc.:

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/types/competition-skating.aspx
http://www.skateisi.com/site/sub.cfm?content=Archive_AskiAIM1
http://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/skating_rinks

Here is a NYT article about copyright licensing and enforcement:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/magazine/08music-t.html?referrer=&_r=0

Here is a 2012 debate between a few lawyers as to whether putting a skaters competitive program up on You Tube constitutes fair use of the copyrighted music:

http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/is-it--fair-use--to-post-figure-skating-videos-on--833310.html

Some people think that copyright has outlived its usefulness, and that artists should be rewarded for their creative efforts in other ways. But at the moment, copyright is still the law.

cheerknithanson · Jun 22, 2015

papagena said:
Look, it really doesn't matter what you feel about it. The bottom line is that in the US as in most other countries, musical works and recorded performances are protected by copyright law.

For those who are interested, here is the current law:

http://copyright.gov/title17/

Owners or exclusive licensees of a copyrighted work have absolute control over who uses the work and how for a fixed period of time.

The courts have defined limited exceptions to this rule, called "fair use":

http://copyright.gov/fair-use/

Skating rinks obtain licenses from clearinghouse such as ASCAP and BMI for the music that is played at public sessions, during competitions, etc.:

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/types/competition-skating.aspx
http://www.skateisi.com/site/sub.cfm?content=Archive_AskiAIM1
http://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/skating_rinks

Here is a NYT article about copyright licensing and enforcement:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/magazine/08music-t.html?referrer=&_r=0

Here is a 2012 debate between a few lawyers as to whether putting a skaters competitive program up on You Tube constitutes fair use of the copyrighted music:

http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/is-it--fair-use--to-post-figure-skating-videos-on--833310.html

Some people think that copyright has outlived its usefulness, and that artists should be rewarded for their creative efforts in other ways. But at the moment, copyright is still the law.

I only made the bottom line.

Sam-Skwantch · Jun 22, 2015

cheerknithanson said:
I only made the bottom line.

cheerknithanson....I understand your point here. Of course the artist should be honored that somebody was able to connect to their music and I agree that in except for rare instances it should be treated as such. But occasionally the artist may not agree. As Karne eluded to...some of these artists are in it for money and image first and foremost. Sometimes maybe even out of moral objection. While as a practicing musician myself and someone who has at times paid bills with my music I'm with you...it should be an honor to have someone want to perform to it. But I can't speak for everyone and I can see the point that if an artist isn't interested in being associated with a person/cause/etc... They should have that right not to be.

In regards to Kanye and Jeremy...I can't think of a single reason after seeing Jeremy's performance for anyone to draw offense from it. It looks like Jeremy is just borrowing a concept from a movie that Kanye already agreed to associate himself with anyway and I'm sure he was compensated better than I'm sure most skaters make in an entire season.

Ice Dance · Jun 22, 2015

Personally, I wish they could come up with a way to charge us a nominal fee to watch a program on youtube with the soundtrack/lyrics rather than eliminating the possibility. I have no desire whatsoever to own a copy of the music alone, but I would pay for guaranteed access to some of my favorite skating programs. Then the songwriter/artist would be able to expand his or her profits to a group of different customers altogether i.e. skating fans. And maintain good P.R. (A certain pop star is not garnering happy thoughts from me right now after hammering all the gala performances this year from one of my favorite skaters. Which is quite sad, considering I actually researched the artist and looked up the lyrics because the skater was performing to the music).

cheerknithanson · Jun 22, 2015

Sam-Skwantch said:
cheerknithanson....I understand your point here. Of course the artist should be honored that somebody was able to connect to their music and I agree that in except for rare instances it should be treated as such. But occasionally the artist may not agree. As Karne eluded to...some of these artists are in it for money and image first and foremost. Sometimes maybe even out of moral objection. While as a practicing musician myself and someone who has at times paid bills with my music I'm with you...it should be an honor to have someone want to perform to it. But I can't speak for everyone and I can see the point that if an artist isn't interested in being associated with a person/cause/etc... They should have that right not to be.

In regards to Kanye and Jeremy...I can't think of a single reason after seeing Jeremy's performance for anyone to draw offense from it. It looks like Jeremy is just borrowing a concept from a movie that Kanye already agreed to associate himself with anyway and I'm sure he was compensated better than I'm sure most skaters make in an entire season.

I agree if it's for a religious belief, political belief, or moral belief that they're not associated with, it's okay to say no. As well as someone who made an offense to the singer or things associated to the singer. Like if a singer is Jewish and the person that wants to use the music is anti-Semitic, then the singer has every right to say no. But figure skating? What is there against it.

Tavi... · Jun 22, 2015

cheerknithanson said:
I only made the bottom line.

I didn't realize the first paragraph wasn't yours because there are no quotes around it in your post #9, which is what I replied to. But to tell the truth, I was actually responding to the second paragraph - which is yours, no?

Sometimes, as much as we wish that everyone would relax and be nice to each other, the real world intrudes - and this is one of those times. As many people have said in different ways through out this thread, it's very hard for most musicians to make a living these days, so while appreciation is a wonderful thing, and artists of all kinds thrive on it, they also deserve to be rewarded for their creative work so they can afford to continue doing it. By the time you get to be a Taylor Swift or a Prince, do you really need more money? Probably not, so it's really easy to get annoyed with Prince for blocking A Question of U on all copies of Jason's SP, for example. But the truth is, very few artists and musicians ever become that successful, and copyright law attempts to protect them, reward them, and encourage them to continue.

andromache · Jun 22, 2015

Sam-Skwantch said:
In regards to Kanye and Jeremy...I can't think of a single reason after seeing Jeremy's performance for anyone to draw offense from it. It looks like Jeremy is just borrowing a concept from a movie that Kanye already agreed to associate himself with anyway and I'm sure he was compensated better than I'm sure most skaters make in an entire season.

As someone who took part in the original discussion and hunted down the program video and concept, I completely agree. It boggles my mind that a song about being black in America would be used for Wolf on Wall Street, but Jeremy's program is obviously based on the film rather than the lyrics/concept of the original song.

Ice Dance said:
Personally, I wish they could come up with a way to charge us a nominal fee to watch a program on youtube with the soundtrack/lyrics rather than eliminating the possibility. I have no desire whatsoever to own a copy of the music alone, but I would pay for guaranteed access to some of my favorite skating programs. Then the songwriter/artist would be able to expand his or her profits to a group of different customers altogether i.e. skating fans. And maintain good P.R. (A certain pop star is not garnering happy thoughts from me right now after hammering all the gala performances this year from one of my favorite skaters. Which is quite sad, considering I actually researched the artist and looked up the lyrics because the skater was performing to the music).

What's this tidbit of drama? I'm dying to know what artist and what skater this was!

cheerknithanson said:
I agree if it's for a religious belief, political belief, or moral belief that they're not associated with, it's okay to say no. As well as someone who made an offense to the singer or things associated to the singer. Like if a singer is Jewish and the person that wants to use the music is anti-Semitic, then the singer has every right to say no. But figure skating? What is there against it.

If singers are in it for the money and fame first, then those singers are acting like 5 year olds who don't want to share their toys.

Figure skating is an artistic expression set to music. Figure skaters have the right to make whatever artistic expression they want. If, however, they are making an artistic expression that the initial creator of the music disagrees with, the artist has every right to stop them from doing so, as in the case of Domnina/Shabalin. Honestly, the artist has the right to stop anyone from skating to their music for any stupid reason they want to. Stupid example: If Taylor Swift never wants Ashley Wagner to skate to any of her music just because Taylor is friends with Gracie Gold, then she can do that. It's her music, she gets to decide the circumstances in which someone capitalizes on it. (Though of course we are allowed to criticize the reasoning for not allowing someone to use music, if we wish to do so.)

And if some artists are in it for the money and the fame first, good for them. They have a right to make a living too.

ice coverage · Jun 22, 2015

cheerknithanson said:
... If singers are in it for the money and fame first, then those singers are acting like 5 year olds who don't want to share their toys.

CKH, I believe that you have told us in the past that you plan to become a physician? A noble career.

And I assume that you chose medicine in large part because helping people is gratifying to you. And to some extent, is its own reward. (Just as the joy of making music is -- to some extent -- its own reward.)

But I would not expect you to give away your medical talents, skills, and experience for free.

If I came to you as a patient, choosing you (as opposed to any other MD) as my physician would be a sign of respect. Would you be willing to accept my respect as your only form of compensation?

If you charged me a fee, I would not accuse you of being a five-year-old who doesn't want to share her toys.

As I said in an earlier post, royalties are vital income for "invisible" artists -- such as back-up musicians. If the big-name artists don't protect their copyrights, the "little guys" who work with them lose out.

karne · Jun 22, 2015

cheerknithanson said:
I agree if it's for a religious belief, political belief, or moral belief that they're not associated with, it's okay to say no. As well as someone who made an offense to the singer or things associated to the singer. Like if a singer is Jewish and the person that wants to use the music is anti-Semitic, then the singer has every right to say no. But figure skating? What is there against it.

If singers are in it for the money and fame first, then those singers are acting like 5 year olds who don't want to share their toys.

You have GOT to be kidding me, right?! You are aware that this is their JOB? That this is how they make money to SURVIVE?

As I said before, appreciation and respect don't put food on the table!

I know you are still living with your parents. So maybe you don't understand. If you were only being paid for your services in "respect and appreciation", you would be homeless, clothesless, internetless, and starving in a heartbeat.

Your Hanson make money and fame. They have copyright over their songs and could veto it if they wish. What would you say then?

Sam-Skwantch · Jun 22, 2015

golden411 said:
CKH, I believe that you have told us in the past that you plan to become a physician? A noble career.

And I assume that you chose medicine in large part because helping people is gratifying to you. And to some extent, is its own reward.

But I would not expect you to give away your professional talent, skills, and experience away for free.

If I came to you as a patient, choosing you (as opposed to any other MD) as my physician would be a sign of respect. Would you be willing to accept my respect as your only form of compensation?

If you charged me a fee, I would not accuse you of being a five-year-old who doesn't want to share her toys.

All good points but wouldn't it be an absolute outlier situation, one of extremely rare circumstances where a figure skater choosing to skate to someone's music would somehow actually harm an artist's attempts at making a living? In fact...I'd bet more than anything their sales would improve to some degree. I can't think of a single situation other than watching Julia that would have led me to purchase You Don't Give Up On Love by Alla Pugacheva. I purchased the entire album by Rope because of Elena Radionova skating to Frida. Great Album BTW.

cheerknithanson · Jun 22, 2015

Deleted because I appear to have made myself look like a kid.

sabinfire · Jun 22, 2015

Sam-Skwantch said:
I can't think of a single situation other than watching Julia that would have led me to purchase You Don't Give Up On Love by Alla Pugacheva. I purchased the entire album by Rope because of Elena Radionova skating to Frida. Great Album BTW.

What is an 'album', and where do you buy it?

Tavi... · Jun 22, 2015

Speaking of powerful artists enforcing their rights, just saw this article about the copyright battle between Taylor Swift v Apple - which she won with one tweet:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/2...smid=tw-nytimesmusic&seid=auto&_r=0&referrer=

cheerknithanson · Jun 22, 2015

Sam-Skwantch said:
All good points but wouldn't it be an absolute outlier situation, one of extremely rare circumstances where a figure skater choosing to skate to someone's music would somehow actually harm an artist's attempts at making a living? In fact...I'd bet more than anything their sales would improve to some degree. I can't think of a single situation other than watching Julia that would have led me to purchase You Don't Give Up On Love by Alla Pugacheva. I purchased the entire album by Rope because of Elena Radionova skating to Frida. Great Album BTW.

Exactly. Like I've bought a few songs as a result to some skaters. I've bought "Back in Black," "Thunderstruck," "Give Me Love," "Chambermaid Swing," and some songs from the "Excelcius." And probably more in the future.

makaihime · Jun 22, 2015

cheerknithanson said:
I agree if it's for a religious belief, political belief, or moral belief that they're not associated with, it's okay to say no. As well as someone who made an offense to the singer or things associated to the singer. Like if a singer is Jewish and the person that wants to use the music is anti-Semitic, then the singer has every right to say no. But figure skating? What is there against it.

If singers are in it for the money and fame first, then those singers are acting like 5 year olds who don't want to share their toys.

You have an extremely unrealistic view of the world.

ice coverage · Jun 22, 2015

Sam-Skwantch said:
All good points but wouldn't it be an absolute outlier situation, one of extremely rare circumstances where a figure skater choosing to skate to someone's music somehow actually harmed an artists attempts at making a living? In fact...I'd bet more than anything their sales would improve to some degree. I can't think of a single situation other watching Julia that would have led me to purchase You Don't Give Up On Love by Alla Pugacheva. I purchased the entire album by Rope because of Elena Radionova skating to Frida. Great Album BTW.

A musician's work product is her/his music.

I don't think anyone is a five-year-old for wanting to retain control over usage of her/his own work product.

I don't know what your profession is, but would you be willing to provide professional services for free to anyone and everyone who offers only respect in exchange?

cheerknithanson · Jun 22, 2015

I apparently have caused more harm than good on my reputation here on this forum.

Copyright issues with skating music?

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