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She got a ! at Europeans I think, at Worlds she didn't get anything but it is clear that she goes back to inside edge right at the moment of taking off the jump. At least a !, of not e...
How judges place GOE?
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She got a ! at Europeans I think, at Worlds she didn't get anything but it is clear that she goes back to inside edge right at the moment of taking off the jump. At least a !, of not e...
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Actually not true, Satoko is trying to improve her pre-rotation issue, despite the fact that the judging and the system do not call her for that at all (and as someone who didn't think she'd do it, I'm happy to eat crow here and have a lot of respect for that hopefully she heals well and continues to work on it without having to go through any further injury).
Then maybe point out the comments that you think go to far against Shoma as a person/skater instead of addressing the whole thread (which IMO does contain a lot of valid criticism)?
And I think sallycinnamon is right, the video is about the GOE given and of course that includes comparing those skaters... so I don't see how Shomas questionable rotation on the 4F is not part of the topic.
You're absolutely right, the system is at fault. Many skaters wouldn't improve their technique unless there is serious punishment and impulse to do so. It's understandable why learning new quads with questionable technique is more profitable than work hard on good quality jumps.
Let's all hope that next season the system will firmly tell skaters to go back to basics with their take-off technique :agree:
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It wouldn't shock me if there are some judges who feel the same way. For all the good quads we saw this year, there were just as many skaters who basically hurled themselves into the air and were lucky not to get seriously injured when they crash landed into the ice. I don't see Jason Brown winning worlds unless he can land more than one quad in a program. However, he's had quite a successful career without one. A skater's health should be first and foremost in the minds of the coaches and if a skater needs to leave quads out of their programs, they shouldn't feel pressured about it.
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The current trend of lenient judging/tech calling undermines the competitive integrity and is unhealthy for the sport. Yet there needs to be some sort of balance: in pre-Vancouver era the consequences for poor(er) technique (UR, wrong edge) were significant and thus there were very few skaters pushing themselves technically (I personally didn't mind, but many people complained about no quads no 3-3s yada yada). Now that one carrot '<' and '!' marks are available, the repercussions are not as serious as before, so there is no reason to not call and point out the problems and deduct points from skaters who exhibit questionable, poor technique. Make it fair for skaters who actually rotate their jumps; take off from the correct edges; sacrificed season(s) of their competitive career to actually correct their technique.
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Maybe ten years form now many jumps would look the same - flip, lutz and loop would blend into 'flutzberger' with toe-edge take-off.
Salchow and toe loop would also blend a bit (sometimes it's not obvious whether it was 4T or 4S, take Moris Kvitelashvili LP for example).
Only axel is pretty safe
When I was watching LP of Moris Kvitelashvili I was like what ... he just did 3rd Quad Salchow?! Glad that I wasn't the only who noticed and was perplexed by it.
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Thank you, I stand corrected. And wishing all the best for Satoko too: a speedy recovery and a return back to top form.
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This is a little long to address but I will say the following:
- I don't hate Hanyu - I predicted him to win Worlds and was thrilled at his comeback FS
- I do however hate the reaction to when somebody wins and then people complain that they didn't win by enough. re: my Trump analogy nobody likes a sore winner who says they should have won more.
-while judges might not give Hanyu enough GOE in some cases, there are times when he is given too high GOE -- eg at 4CC his 4S turned into a double with a euler got +GOE; you talk about that Mexican judge giving 0 (an obvious outlier) --- well at Worlds in his SP Hanyu's 4S was ratified as not in combination and yet a judge gave him a -2 (the rules state that final GOE is a mandatory -3). This is rampant in the judging system and affects skaters other than Hanyu.
Like, honestly, 7/9 judges give him +3, and 2/9 give him +2 and people act like the damn sky is falling.
And yes I think Javier's SP 3A did deserve +3 (although so did Hanyu's). And Javier's 4S and 4T was better than Hanyu's. Perhaps the maker of the video was imprudent at using Javier's Worlds GOE because they were some of his best jumps ever executed and yes - some of them did deserve equal or even better GOE than Hanyu, IMO.
This whole season has been, "Chan was over scored and beat Hanyu at Skate Canada!"
... "Chen was over scored and beat Hanyu at 4CC!" ... "Hanyu won Worlds. But not by enough points!" Please. Cry me a river.Also, sorry your vacation got ruined by a judging protocol. :sarcasm:
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Last fall after the 2016 nhk men's sp I responded to a post about a skater receiving 10's despite a very visible error. In particular, the one for interpretation. My point, using a much more egregious example that occurred in ice dance, was that it undermined the credibility and fairness of the sport.
Instead of responding to the point raised, I along with two other posters were immediately challenged by a certain poster and asked why we never protested the scores of Javier Fernandez and suggested that we were attacking his/her skater because we (paraphrasing here) could not ignore his/her idol as he is so great.
For the record, i am hereby noting a 10 was given by judge #8 for interpretation to Javi in his 2017 world's fs. Imo, it was an example of very poor judging. Five errors (one bad disruptive fall, a wonky popped jump and three step-outs) should not receive a perfect 10.
Since this thread is about goe , in the fs judge 7 gave javi a -2 for his 4S splat and a +1 for his very messy 2F seq.
Instead of responding to the point raised, I along with two other posters were immediately challenged by a certain poster and asked why we never protested the scores of Javier Fernandez and suggested that we were attacking his/her skater because we (paraphrasing here) could not ignore his/her idol as he is so great.
For the record, i am hereby noting a 10 was given by judge #8 for interpretation to Javi in his 2017 world's fs. Imo, it was an example of very poor judging. Five errors (one bad disruptive fall, a wonky popped jump and three step-outs) should not receive a perfect 10.
Since this thread is about goe , in the fs judge 7 gave javi a -2 for his 4S splat and a +1 for his very messy 2F seq.
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And when people bring up wrong judging when 'their favorite didn't win', you bash all criticism aside because of course they can only be mad, well, because 'their fave didn't win'. How convenient to always have a blanket 'argument' for either case.
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Lol, you complain when your favourite doesn't win, arguing that the winner was scored too much. And then you complain when your favourite does win, arguing that they weren't scored enough.
Talk about blanket arguments.
Look, I know you're dismayed at the thought of other skaters catching up or exceeding him... so you take the predictable route of pointing out his main competitors' flaws while suggesting your skater deserves perfect scores across the board. Everyone else overscored, your skater underscored. And let's hope the ISU will listen to fans complaining about their skater who just won Worlds, lol.
I said to my friend today that Yuzuru super fans are complaining that he didn't win Worlds by enough of a margin, and are saying nobody deserves the high GOE he should be getting. Her response: "Must be an Olympic year!"
Lol, you complain when your favourite doesn't win, arguing that the winner was scored too much. And then you complain when your favourite does win, arguing that they weren't scored enough.
Talk about blanket arguments.
Look, I know you're dismayed at the thought of other skaters catching up or exceeding him... so you take the predictable route of pointing out his main competitors' flaws while suggesting your skater deserves perfect scores across the board. Everyone else overscored, your skater underscored. And let's hope the ISU will listen to fans complaining about their skater who just won Worlds, lol.
I said to my friend today that Yuzuru super fans are complaining that he didn't win Worlds by enough of a margin, and are saying nobody deserves the high GOE he should be getting. Her response: "Must be an Olympic year!"
Dude, are you still saying all those bla bla bla stuff just because you don't like some group of people? You and some folks here can write novels together.
I still remember your complaints about Sochi. It's so long ago. How long does someone resent a result? Apparently not just Miss Kim's fans.
I still remember all your excuses for Mr. Patrick in World Championships 2012 and 2013 and many other competitions you know. Most people here remember. Don't you want people to bring back your past and your causes?
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Back to the topic:
My demand is just simple, if they have spent so much money and time to build a system with the purpose of telling you what's wrong with your skating and the technique, they should strictly follow it.
If they can't even make it clear which technique is more correct, then they're just encouraging more bad technique and cheating.
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Thank you for answering the original question of the topic. Would you mind giving more details on what you mean by "Javier's 4S and 4T was better than Hanyu's". What GOE points did his jumps hit that Hanyu's didn't.
Just to make it clear, I agree with you on the quality of Javier's jumps, I just want to know your opinion on how his and Hanyu's GOE were calculated.
Bty, I still think your Trump analogy was a bit too much
Mr. Fernandez landed those jumps in the first half of the program I remember.
The point the first poster wanted to make, in my opinion, is that the GOE are not given based on true quality. The biggest GOE are supposed to be saved for the late skaters whom judges already want to be on the podium.
I don't have much big issue with Mr Fernandez's GOE on his jumps except the 3A. His 3A in SP didn't deserve +3. And it would be nice if someone made slow motion of Mr. Fernandez's 3A. It's very funny 3A.
The true atrocity GOE for Mr Fernandez have always for his Spins and Step sequence.
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So back to the original video:
I don't think Yuzuru is underscored. Shoma and Javier overscored a tad bit (most of these jumps seem ~ +2). It's hard to apply appropriate minus GOE for lack of rotation/poor takeoff/wrong edge based on the video due to its quality - slowmo is not good, frames are choppy, closed up shots are not good, etc. Based on a quick glance, some of the jumps (with better quality replay) - Yuzuru SP 4Lo, Shoma SP & LP 4F, Javi LP 4T look pre-rotated/UR which would be ~ -1 to the GOE total; average final GOE somewhere around +1 and +2.
Mr Hanyu's 4Lo in the Lp was fully rotated https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7btZDLTFql6hdJ8Q/giphy.gif
The 4Lo in SP was better though.
I haven't watched Mr Fernandez's 4T.
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Wait, I don't know what I was watching (I did say a quick glance :roll9
. Upon rewatching his SP 4Lo looks 3.5~3.75 turns which would be a-ok for a Loop.Also good god that gif is bad. It puts 0 focus on the takeoff which makes it near impossible to count the rotations.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Firstly, cheating is a horrible, unfounded accusation. These skaters aren't cheating. If the judges aren't recognizing technique issues - or are not scrutinizing it to the level that fans are (ones who scrutinize their's favourites' rivals, mind you), that's on them.
Secondly, Hanyu is not the only skater who is following the criteria and demands outlined by the system, nor is he the only skater hitting his GOE bullets, nor is he the only skater deserving of the highest marks. As much as his fans would love to give him +3 on every element, and everyone else +1 or +2 tops, the judges are not going to pander to that favouritism.
Also, LOL, what issue did I have with Sochi? I predicted Hanyu to win and even defended him from people who suggested he was one of the worst OGM winners saying he had a perfect SP and still did a quad and two axels in the FS. I thought D/W were better than V/M so I don't think you're referring to ice dance. As far as Sotnikova's win - I definitely don't know what you're referring to - I though Kostner should have won and I also don't think Sotnikova's win was entirely unmerited. And I've though Kim fans need to get over her losing instead of moping since she already has an Olympic gold. Hmm... I wonder if I'll have to do the same next season? :sarcasm:
In terms of Worlds 2012 and 2013, I defend only when others continually slam Chan. I've said Ten deserved to win 2013 but also acknowledge he had technical errors that cost him the victory too (like doubling two triples). Same goes with 2012 - which was a much easier Worlds to justify Chan winning, given Takahashi's costly technical errors, lower jump GOE, and Chan having higher planned difficulty. Of course, that's thinking with your head (doing the CoP math) instead of thinking with your heart (Takahashi was more beloved and Chan's skating "leaves them cold"
), so I understand why some considered it controversial. Case in point though: you brought up 2012/2013 Worlds when nobody even mentioned it in this thread. 
I could write novels, but it's way more fun reading you.
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So you are saying Loop and Flip and Lutz can be identical now and that's not cheating?
There is no difference in the way you making excuses for Mr Patrick and attack the other skaters. Old habit die hard.
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- Jan 25, 2013
I thought Javier had cleaner landing edges, more definitive rotation (especially on the 4S), and the jumps looked more effortless with better flow overall.
As far as Javier's SP triple axel, it had steps leading up to it/creative entry, great height/good distance, effortlessness/flow throughout, creative arm positions on the exit, and it matched the musical structure. Overall it was a very strong element. While I thought Hanyu's 3A was better, both sufficiently met the requirements for +3.
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