Kostner's plan for the Lutz in 2018?

Globetrotter · Oct 25, 2017

gmyers said:
Kostner is too regress for success! It’s a cloud over her skating. Can’t respect it.

Hmm if the regress you are referring to is jump content, that is true. As a sport, I agree that jumps are probably the biggest highlights and best illustrate the ethos for faster, higher, stronger. Unfortunately, FS also includes spins, footwork, basic skating and myriad non jump elements. Every skater will use their best strengths to their abilities to win. So if CaroK is using her artistry to boost PCS scores and depending on quality transitions rather than quantity, I don't see why that is considered regress. Last I observed, her spins had noticeably improved from even her Sochi 2014 days. Instead of trying to outjump the younger girls, she is using her experience and superior basic SS to boost PCS scores. Just as someone like Zhenya uses backloading and lots of tricks to gain GOEs, using musicality, artistry and strong SS to get high components is just another way of maximising points. I won't call it regress unless FS scoring becomes only a TES score.

bobbob · Oct 25, 2017

I mean it's obvious she is going to try for a harder program, whether she is successful is uncertain. To be honest, the scores she is getting if she is clean with her current programs she can still get a medal if others make mistakes. If she is clean with a 7 triple program, if she is clean she can medal even if others don't make mistakes.

FSGMT · Oct 25, 2017

Has anyone mentioned that Franca Bianconi posted a short video on Facebook right before the beginning of the Lombardia Trophy, in which Carolina could be seen landing a 3Lutz (even if she put her hands down IIRC)?

Mirunna · Oct 25, 2017

gmyers said:
Kostner is too regress for success! It’s a cloud over her skating. Can’t respect it.

Huh? The only thing she is missing right now is a 3Lz, which she will most likely add as the season progress. At Rostelecom she did two programs more challenging technically than what she put on the ice when she won a World title. Add a 3Lz (and tweak a bit the rest of the combos), she'll have more or less the same jump content in the LP as Medvedeva, with the diference being that Medvedeva is having a bad 2A and is adding the combos to other triple jumps while Carolina has a strong 2A and she'll probably add 3T/3S to the 2A.
No respect for a 30 year old skater who is throwing 3-3 and 2A-1/2 loop -3S combos? This only shows how good her technique is if the kept her jumps for all these years. And I am not even talking about her evolution as a skater.
In the past the had success with a 3Lz as an opening jump in the LP, it worked pretty well and it was consistent. Yes, it was telegraphed, but I loved the speed and long entry, as well as the lovely flow out of the jump. She will probably do the same now.

TheCzar · Oct 25, 2017

berry8 said:
Am I the very only one who thinks she is heavily overscored?
Have u guys ever heard about a skater not even jumping a 3-3 scoring higher than 70 in the short?

Overscored technically? maybe. if you are to put in contention that most of the ladies have two triple-triples and tons of backloading. However, what Carolina puts out are quality jumps. They're not small and meager. Easier perhaps but of great quality when landed.

PCS? Well deserved most of the time.

If we're talking of overscoring though- we currently live in a world where a mediocre program with a fall on a double axel still gets scored 150+ with a couple of 10s in components

, so I don't think Carolina's scores are as hideously controversial.

4everchan · Oct 25, 2017

^^ two wrongs don't make a right

gmyers · Oct 25, 2017

Globetrotter said:
Hmm if the regress you are referring to is jump content, that is true. As a sport, I agree that jumps are probably the biggest highlights and best illustrate the ethos for faster, higher, stronger. Unfortunately, FS also includes spins, footwork, basic skating and myriad non jump elements. Every skater will use their best strengths to their abilities to win. So if CaroK is using her artistry to boost PCS scores and depending on quality transitions rather than quantity, I don't see why that is considered regress. Last I observed, her spins had noticeably improved from even her Sochi 2014 days. Instead of trying to outjump the younger girls, she is using her experience and superior basic SS to boost PCS scores. Just as someone like Zhenya uses backloading and lots of tricks to gain GOEs, using musicality, artistry and strong SS to get high components is just another way of maximising points. I won't call it regress unless FS scoring becomes only a TES score.

I know there are many ways to win points in the TES of programs. I know spins and steps get points. I am just not a fan of her regressing in jumps!

Mirunna said:
Huh? The only thing she is missing right now is a 3Lz, which she will most likely add as the season progress. At Rostelecom she did two programs more challenging technically than what she put on the ice when she won a World title. Add a 3Lz (and tweak a bit the rest of the combos), she'll have more or less the same jump content in the LP as Medvedeva, with the diference being that Medvedeva is having a bad 2A and is adding the combos to other triple jumps while Carolina has a strong 2A and she'll probably add 3T/3S to the 2A.
No respect for a 30 year old skater who is throwing 3-3 and 2A-1/2 loop -3S combos? This only shows how good her technique is if the kept her jumps for all these years. And I am not even talking about her evolution as a skater.
In the past the had success with a 3Lz as an opening jump in the LP, it worked pretty well and it was consistent. Yes, it was telegraphed, but I loved the speed and long entry, as well as the lovely flow out of the jump. She will probably do the same now.

It’s more than just lack of lutz. It’s the triple toe solo jump and 3s-2t combo! These are technical nothing-burgers. Why can’t she repeat the loop?

beki · Oct 25, 2017

I assume she's with Mishin because she's serious about getting the jumps. And it seems to be working. They'll add as much as she's capable of. I love her quality.

Globetrotter · Oct 25, 2017

gmyers said:
I know there are many ways to win points in the TES of programs. I know spins and steps get points. I am just not a fan of her regressing in jumps!

It’s more than just lack of lutz. It’s the triple toe solo jump and 3s-2t combo! These are technical nothing-burgers. Why can’t she repeat the loop?

It's a balance of getting high BVs vs skating clean to ensure high PCS. Yuna Kim doesn't have a 3R and repeated 3Lz and 3S. Yuna had 3-3, Caro went for 2A-1R-3S. They just went with what works out feasible. Personally, I will also rather she bring back her 3Lz in place of the solo 3T, keep the 2A-1R-3S, tag on 2A-3T and swop 3S-2T to solo 3S. The two 3Fs and 3R can stay as is. This layout should be OGM competitive if skated clean and with purpose.

ask · Oct 25, 2017

gmyers said:
I know there are many ways to win points in the TES of programs. I know spins and steps get points. I am just not a fan of her regressing in jumps!

It’s more than just lack of lutz. It’s the triple toe solo jump and 3s-2t combo! These are technical nothing-burgers. Why can’t she repeat the loop?

Medvedeva repeats the flip and toe. Caro repeats flip and sal. She's 1 lutz from the World champion in the LP. Is it that regressive? If the world champion is doing 5 quads, and she's doing triple toe, then there's a problem. Don't look for problem when there is none.

gmyers · Oct 25, 2017

ask said:
Medvedeva repeats the flip and toe. Caro repeats flip and sal. She's 1 lutz from the World champion in the LP. Is it that regressive? If the world champion is doing 5 quads, and she's doing triple toe, then there's a problem. Don't look for problem when there is none.

Medvedeva does triple triples so it’s different. Kostner is not matching her jump potential and that’s regressing. Not up against a history of five quads just her history of harder jumps and lutz inclusion.

Globetrotter said:
It's a balance of getting high BVs vs skating clean to ensure high PCS. Yuna Kim doesn't have a 3R and repeated 3Lz and 3S. Yuna had 3-3, Caro went for 2A-1R-3S. They just went with what works out feasible. Personally, I will also rather she bring back her 3Lz in place of the solo 3T, keep the 2A-1R-3S, tag on 2A-3T and swop 3S-2T to solo 3S. The two 3Fs and 3R can stay as is. This layout should be OGM competitive if skated clean and with purpose.

Triple triple has its own status to me that can’t be replicated by 2a-1r-3s! IJS allows for building of points in many ways but I’d rather a 3/3 than a near point equivalent 3 jump combo.

beki · Oct 25, 2017

It's just silly to me to compare her to her younger self. An erosion in jump capability is expected for a skater later in her career. Why be mad about it? She's doing amazingly well.

ask · Oct 25, 2017

gmyers said:
Medvedeva does triple triples so it’s different. Kostner is not matching her jump potential and that’s regressing. Not up against a history of five quads just her history of harder jumps and lutz inclusion.

Triple triple has its own status to me that can’t be replicated by 2a-1r-3s! IJS allows for building of points in many ways but I’d rather a 3/3 than a near point equivalent 3 jump combo.

kostner doesn't care about your triple triple status in your mind. Neither are the judges. Thank god!

Spirals for Miles · Oct 25, 2017

It'd be awful sad to me if Kostner wins OGM over Medvedeva. Not only is Medvedeva better technically, she's nearly caught up in artistry... and she's actually been competing for the entirety of the past quad. It kind of feels like Carolina came back just to go to the Olympics AGAIN and Worlds AGAIN...

coldblueeyes · Oct 25, 2017

Spirals for Miles said:
It'd be awful sad to me if Kostner wins OGM over Medvedeva. Not only is Medvedeva better technically, she's nearly caught up in artistry... and she's actually been competing for the entirety of the past quad. It kind of feels like Carolina came back just to go to the Olympics AGAIN and Worlds AGAIN...

And how is that a bad thing? Coming back to compete because she wants?

Also, Medvedeva has all the advantages over Carolina at the moment, so, if she loses, it's going to take some major mistakes on her part. I doubt Carolina will come with something out of this world regarding her technical score, and even her PCS are under Evgenia's.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 25, 2017

Spirals for Miles said:
It'd be awful sad to me if Kostner wins OGM over Medvedeva. Not only is Medvedeva better technically, she's nearly caught up in artistry... and she's actually been competing for the entirety of the past quad. It kind of feels like Carolina came back just to go to the Olympics AGAIN and Worlds AGAIN...

If Kostner beats Medvedeva, it will be because Evgenia made serious mistakes that impacted the quality of the program. They are miles apart as far as being able to accrue TES points.

gmyers · Oct 25, 2017

ask said:
kostner doesn't care about your triple triple status in your mind. Neither are the judges. Thank god!

I agree! The goal of every skater must be to accumulate the most points in the way they can. That is ijs. I am not a skater so I can believe it’s nice when Women do 3/3 when they win. But that’s pre ijs thinking! I am a total pre ijs fan.

Tallorder · Oct 25, 2017

Looking forward to what will certainly be an emotional embrace from her home country crowds for Carolina, for her career, when Worlds takes place in Milan.

Globetrotter · Oct 25, 2017

Spirals for Miles said:
It'd be awful sad to me if Kostner wins OGM over Medvedeva. Not only is Medvedeva better technically, she's nearly caught up in artistry... and she's actually been competing for the entirety of the past quad. It kind of feels like Carolina came back just to go to the Olympics AGAIN and Worlds AGAIN...

Well and what's wrong with coming back just for the big events? Yuna Kim did the same for the Sochi 2014 quad and Serena Williams in tennis was blatantly motivated to compete big only at Grand Slams. Zhenya's big strength to me is her competitive nerves and ability to project to the audience and execute all the plans accordingly. That deserves big points but somehow I am still left cold. She still comes across as having quantity rather than quality and the basic SS are really still quite average. She is way ahead TES wise but I don't think she is ahead of CaroK PCS wise - not yet. But then she still outscores everyone in PCS.

GGFan · Oct 26, 2017

Spirals for Miles said:
It'd be awful sad to me if Kostner wins OGM over Medvedeva. Not only is Medvedeva better technically, she's nearly caught up in artistry... and she's actually been competing for the entirety of the past quad. It kind of feels like Carolina came back just to go to the Olympics AGAIN and Worlds AGAIN...

Better technically and able to get the PCS scores but let's agree to disagree on artistry. I'm glad Medveda has mastered those "OMG I'm shocked" faces. Carolina is in a different league in terms of interpretation, movement, and composition of programs.

Kostner's plan for the Lutz in 2018?

Globetrotter

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