Team Event: Time to Change the Rules?

chopinskate · Feb 15, 2018

After an extensive debate over the rules of the team event, the likes of which can end only in a Pyrrhic victory, here is your own Team Event thread!

I personally think that there needs to be some change to make the countries take this event seriously. It was clear to me that the Canadians were the only ones who approached this event with any sort of strategy.

People who haven't been going through the thread that started this: Please be sensitive and respectful with your comments.

drivingmissdaisy · Feb 15, 2018

It's hard to be strategic when you don't have world class skaters for all four events. That leaves three countries. Russia did the most with what they had; both women deserved to compete and splitting pairs is ideal so they can be fresh for the individual event. The US had no option for pairs and needed to split men to rest Nathan. Splitting dance wouldn't have helped because Mirai placed as well as Bradie could have. I do think it's dumb to have an Olympic event when there is virtually no chance for a team outside the top 3 contenders to medal.

Putina · Feb 15, 2018

I do not think any rule change will satisfy any more people than the current one. The problem is more fundamental in that only a few countries have deep enough skating base to field all 4 disciplines, and in that figure skating has little to no interdisciplinary interaction.

I do not object to team event, however. There are just not enough medals to go around for the skaters, and any means to honor the skaters and their effort should be encouraged at this stage.

drivingmissdaisy · Feb 15, 2018

Putina said:
The problem is more fundamental in that only a few countries have deep enough skating base to field all 4 disciplines, and in that figure skating has little to no interdisciplinary interaction.

This is the biggest issue for me. Sports like gymnastics have team events, but often those athletes have events they are better at, or even specialize in, so they can contribute something different. I chuckled a bit when one of the commentators called Kaetlyn a "short program specialist," as if that was a unique skill she brings to the table. She had the second best LP at Worlds.

karne · Feb 15, 2018

Qualification rules need fixing.

Example:
JGP, GP, and GPF points all counted.
JGPF did not.

Like, seriously? Makes zero sense.

dorispulaski · Feb 15, 2018

I also was annoyed about feds reserving their best skaters for the individual events. I understand it, but as a fan, I do not like it.

The feds are still treating the event like a cheese fest.

I think the only thing that can be done to fix the event is to make it worth the while of the skaters and the feds to compete.

After all, six to 10 Olympic gold medals are given out here. They are real medals. In the US the gymnastics team medals seem to be as much revered as the individual medals.

Skating should work to grow the prestige of this event.

(Bigger) prizes at the Olympics for team event skaters?
Skaters can earn better start positions in the individual events by competing in the team event?
Hold the team event in the Olympic format every year, except the Olympic year?
Penalties for not using your highest ranked skaters?

chopinskate · Feb 15, 2018

dorispulaski said:
(Bigger) prizes at the Olympics for team event skaters?
Skaters can earn better start positions in the individual events by competing in the team event?
Hold the team event in the Olympic format every year, except the Olympic year?
Penalties for not using your highest ranked skaters?

Team rankings and their affecting the individual rankings would be an excellent idea!

That might even get countries like China and Japan to train their Dance teams better! (And ladies for China and Pairs for Japan, too)

And Korea for Pairs and Dance!

Blades of Passion · Feb 15, 2018

drivingmissdaisy said:
Russia did the most with what they had; both women deserved to compete and splitting pairs is ideal so they can be fresh for the individual event. The US had no option for pairs and needed to split men to rest Nathan.

The argument of people needing rest doesn't fly. This is the Olympics, people need to be prepared and they are out there training hard anyway, so doing 1 more competitive performance instead of training as much on that day shouldn't be considered anything out of the ordinary. Tarasova/Morozov "resting" did not help them, they were beaten by a pair who skated all 4 segments. Carolina Kostner skated the full Team event and she one of the oldest competitors. Top dance teams are frequently skating the full event.

Tarasova/Morozov and Nathan Chen should have been competing all segments, Aliev should have been skating the LP for Russia. Not only did Russia's choice of competitors diminish their team potential (every country's choices hurt their team, aside from Canada), it also removed Kolyada from getting "rest", if that is supposed to be any kind of legitimate argument.

drivingmissdaisy · Feb 15, 2018

Blades of Passion said:
This is the Olympics, people need to be prepared and they are out there training hard anyway, so doing 1 more competitive performance instead of training as much on that day shouldn't be considered anything out of the ordinary.

I would guess that, mentally, competing in an Olympic program segment would be much more stressful than a normal practice session. I think it's more about that than the physical exhaustion. While the Canadian team performed well, the US team was worse in the pairs event. The individual events are so important that I don't blame the athletes for not taking the risk unless there is no other choice.

NanaPat · Feb 15, 2018

drivingmissdaisy said:
It's hard to be strategic when you don't have world class skaters for all four events. That leaves three countries. Russia did the most with what they had; both women deserved to compete and splitting pairs is ideal so they can be fresh for the individual event. The US had no option for pairs and needed to split men to rest Nathan. Splitting dance wouldn't have helped because Mirai placed as well as Bradie could have. I do think it's dumb to have an Olympic event when there is virtually no chance for a team outside the top 3 contenders to medal.

The first year all the medal-contender federations used the same strategy:
- put your best skater (or best short-program skater) in the short program (where the downside from a bad performance is the biggest)
- use as many subs as possible to "rest" individual medal contenders and get medals for as many skaters as possible (though a team medal is still 1 medal, not 6 - 10 for the number of skaters involved) .

This year Canada didn't use all its possible subs (Italy didn't either) and was criticized for it in some circles. Unless a country has two nearly-equal skaters (like Canada in women and Italy in pairs), substitution will most likely weaken your overall team result.

The jury is very much out on whether performing in the team event is good for the skaters (shake off the nerves) or bad (undermine their confidence if team event performance is bad; tire them out).

Based on the pairs this year, the results are very mixed: of the top 4:
gold - Germany - did team short only (didn't advance, so no chance to do long)
silver - China - didn't do team event (reported due to injury)
bronze - Canada - did both programs in team event
fourth - Russia - did short in team event, substituted out in long. In individual, did well in short, not so well in long

Other notable:
Marchei/Hotorek (Italy) did long in team event and did very well in long

I'd say skating the team event were probably beneficial for S/M, D/R and M/H.

I have a feeling that in future years, strategy will shift as the federations have more experience with the team event.

NOTE: the two teams who didn't use all their subs (Canada and Italy) also appeared to be the most invested in the team event.

Blades of Passion · Feb 15, 2018

drivingmissdaisy said:
I would guess that, mentally, competing in an Olympic program segment would be much more stressful than a normal practice session.

Surely more stressful yes, but then at the same time you can say it's valuable experience. Maybe if T/M had the experience of competing their LP at the Olympics, they wouldn't have made the mistakes in the individual event. Who's to say? Either way, the best teams need to be competing or else this event will continue have an asterisk next to it.

drivingmissdaisy · Feb 15, 2018

I think having dance as the first event after the team competition would solve a lot of problems.

pearly · Feb 15, 2018

I would do one or more of the following:

1. Everyone is required to substitute in all 4 events if qualified more than 1 skater/team (this one I would do for sure)
2. 6-7 teams advance to the free

Change the scoring system so that the short does not determine everything:
3. We add scores instead award 1-10 pts for placements
4. If keeping 1-10 pts, award 2-4-6-8-10 for the free (different scale if more than 5 teams in the free)
5. Consider the old point system from 6.0 - each place earned in the short is worth 0.5 points, 1 point in the free (or was it 1.5?). Team with lowest score wins.

Mango · Feb 15, 2018

The only way to actually make people participate in the team event without forcing them like pearly is suggesting in #1 above is to allow the Team Event score count for an individual score.

Let's take Shoma for an example. He did the SP in the team event and scored 103+. He should have the option to have that score count for his SP score in the individual event. The decision can be made after they've done the individual event. Then everyone will rush to compete to have two chances for a good score. Because ultimately, Shoma put out a 100+ performance on Olympic ice and it should count for something.

Yes, this is unfair to countries who don't make the team event but it may push nations to develop their teams and give their skaters the chance to compete twice for medals.

To make it a bit more fairer they could keep all 10 countries for the FS/FD. That may also produce some interesting final results.

To make it even more inclusive the field could be expanded to 12 countries or even more.

j00mla · Feb 15, 2018

Blades of Passion said:
The argument of people needing rest doesn't fly.

Agreed. At Oly they have enough time to rest before individuals. And I'm sure many of them (Zagitova 100%) can perform SP + FP for team event in one day and SP + FP on the next day.

rvi5 · Feb 15, 2018

Up until the team event started, FS fans here and at FSU were busy calculating points, discussing odds, guessing who would be used in the SP and LP. Calculating and recalculating as new information came in. Of course the wise strategy is to always use your best skaters...in theory. That is obvious. However, if the best skaters always competed both programs, top countries would likely always win. Where is the pre-event fun for FS fans? Where is the hope by lower countries, that the top countries may err by making the wrong skater selection? It was mentioned by someone, that Italy thought they could win the bronze. Whether a country chooses to risk sending their best for SP & LP, or save them for the IE, is part of the strategy and risks involved in the team event, and part of the fun for FS fans. Is the team event only about watching a show, or the suspense of who may win (as with other team sports ie. baseball hockey, football, basketball, soccer, etc.)?

As for taking the team event seriously, perhaps Canada has set an example, and sparked interest for other countries. We will know in four years.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports...finding-developing-pairs-ice-dance-prospects/

champs · Feb 16, 2018

Blades of Passion said:
The argument of people needing rest doesn't fly. This is the Olympics, people need to be prepared and they are out there training hard anyway, so doing 1 more competitive performance instead of training as much on that day shouldn't be considered anything out of the ordinary.

I remember Uchimura saying in an informal interview that his participation in the QR and Team Final really put his condition in the worst way possible for his All Around at the Worlds/Olys but he had no choice as he wanted to bring a team gold medal to his country and the Japanese team is totally dependent on maximum participation by him. Now I can't say how figure skating is comparable to artistic gymnastics in a convincing way, but I believe it's not so dissimilar since you really want to put your 100% effort and concentration into your official performance in any sport be it team or individual, and not only is it physically demanding, it probably also disrupts their peaking plans for their conditioning and for the success rate of each of the difficult jumps (i.e. quads and 3A).

CaroLiza_fan · Feb 16, 2018

Mmmm. We have another thread...

To answer the question in the title: yes.

Either that or scrap the whole thing (my preferred option).

To be taken seriously, the Olympic Team Event needs an overhaul. And, for me, what is needed to achieve that is pretty simple: base the format more on the World Team Trophy.

The WTT is easy to understand. The team members are announced, and they all get to skate. Sure, it could do with a few tweeks (having more teams take part; having 2 entries in all categories). But, on the whole, the organisers got it right.

As I said in the other thread, we had this discussion after the first Olympic Team Event in Sochi. And I did a project looking into how it could be improved.

My views are still the same now. So, rather than repeat myself, may I direct you to what I wrote then:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

Please don't be scared by the length of the whole thing! The tables make it look longer than it is (which is why I split it into multiple posts).

To get the gist of my thoughts, you could actually get away with just reading Part 1, Part 2 and the last third of Part 4.

EDIT: Looking back at it 3 ¼ years later, I don't actually understand the tables and paragraphs at the end of Part 1... :slink:

CaroLiza_fan

Blades of Passion · Feb 16, 2018

Yeah, it may be hard for some, but it's the Olympics. If you're a top competitor it's your job. Uchimira did it. Go legend or go home.

Mango said:
allow the Team Event score count for an individual score.

That absolutely can not happen. Athletes can't be given credit for anything outside what they did in the singular event.

nolangoh · Feb 16, 2018

The problem about this "Team" Event is that it has no "teamwork" involved. It's so individual. It's basically everyone do your own thing and we count the final rankings. It's more like "collective" than "team". We can do the same by just making a Best "Team" Award in any competition by adding the ranks as long as a country has representatives in all four of them. It's like counting everyone's All-Around's results in gymnastics rather than dividing the work.

It will be more like a "team" if one man, one lady, one pair and one dance team skate a program together, with jumps and lifts that count as TES, and the choreography and composition as the artistic score.

Team Event: Time to Change the Rules?

chopinskate

drivingmissdaisy

Putina

drivingmissdaisy

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

chopinskate

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

drivingmissdaisy

NanaPat

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

drivingmissdaisy

pearly

Mango

Royal Chinet 👑🍽️

j00mla

Made in USSR

rvi5

champs

CaroLiza_fan

MINIOL ALATMI REKRIS. EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA.

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

nolangoh

Steps and Spirals enthusiast

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