Team Event: Time to Change the Rules?

[Ziotic]

There is actually a team figure skating competition every year now. The World Team Trophy (country based) on odd numbered years, and the Team Challenge Cup (continent based) on even numbered years.

Well, that is assuming that the TCC continues past it's first edition. I really like the idea of a continent based team competition, but I really hated the format that was used.

If I had my way, all the team competitions would use a format largely based on what is used at the WTT.

CaroLiza_fan

WTT would heavily favour countries strong in singles, it is not a good option for a well rounded team event.

 

[Ziotic]

I know that my country (Australia) is very much a “developing” nation as far as skating is concerned, and we were short only one category (ice dance - of “The Dancing Pairs” as TSL called them, which is how I shall regard them forever more lol).

Had we qualified an ice dance team though, that still would’ve left us with every athlete having to double up - given that other countries are able to sub in skaters and teams to rest those who would like it etc, that would’ve left us at a potential disadvantage at least in terms of having no choices or chances to cater to athlete preferences.

I would like to see the following -

- Substitute policy - every discipline not only allowed to substitute but be REQUIRED to. That evens the playing field by preventing one or two super strong athletes carrying an otherwise weak (ish) team.

- Team-Only Athletes- if a country like Australia (had we indeed qualified to all disciplines) DOES legitimately qualify an athlete for every discipline OR at least two for, say, two of the events (or perhaps even three) - they should then be allowed to nominate TWO athletes/teams to fill the remaining spots, whom will ONLY compete for the team event.
This will encourage- hopefully!! - countries like Japan to work on their pairs etc.
*** China, they were allowed to bring a lady just for team event due to retirement of the pretty skater whose name I’ve totally forgot, right?

- Prestige Factor- Introduce set rules - applied across the board - about who within a team WILL participate and how. Such as, National Champ/No 1 ranked WILL partake and is allowed to choose their program (short, long), 2nd is required to do program 1st did not nominate. 3rd misses out (unless injury to no’s 1, 2).
This will remove a bit of the subjective nature of the sport for the 4 year fans, as the “she’s their best so she chose to do her shorter program” kind of thinking is a lot more in line with other Olympic sports and more relatable to people.
A petition could be allowed to the IOC in event of injury (Med, for example, may have been allowed to miss the event and sub in Maria due to her foot injury).

- Scheduling- ARE the skaters getting sufficient rest/practice time at present? Are some disciplines favoured over others, such as ladies having more time between team conclusion and start of individual event? Perhaps a few more days in between, even if qualifying starts two days prior to opening ceremony instead of one, and more practice sessions for duration of games so there’s not the need to go somewhere else (which may not be practicable given the turnaround for, say, Pairs)?

- No more WTT, but a Team Comp incorporated into either every World Championships or every 2nd (or all bar the post-Oly Champs, like in Gymnastics).
This would accustom athletes to such a skating load, and increase legitimacy in eyes of the viewers.

China qualified their lady outright at worlds last year. The only additional athelets were from Israel and sorta South Korea as their pairs team got a host spot as well.

 

[Tulipstar]

It could be argued that if you are a good skater from a smaller federation then you'll do well regardless of what happens in the team event. Like Javier vs. Shoma. Shoma's SP in the team event and the individual were not enough to beat Javier's SP score.

In this case. If it had been the case, lots of people would now be annoyed.

It is a very unfair advantage. If bigger federations don't prioritize the team event, no need to give them unfair advantages to push them.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

WTT would heavily favour countries strong in singles, it is not a good option for a well rounded team event.

Yes, but that is why I would change the format slightly so that there were 2 entries in every category. As I said in my previous comment in this thread:

The WTT is easy to understand. The team members are announced, and they all get to skate. Sure, it could do with a few tweeks (having more teams take part; having 2 entries in all categories). But, on the whole, the organisers got it right.

I didn't repeat that part in the comment you quoted as the purpose of that post was primarily to answer lavoix's question.

With hindsight, I should have been clearer.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[moriel]

With all these comments about the best skater skating both segments I wonder if maybe the reverse should be a rule instead.

Each segment needs to be skated by a different skater - unless the team in question doesn't have one.

If it's a "TEAM" event, shouldn't as many members of the team be included? I feel bad that because of the only 2 change limit Dima missed out on skating and getting a medal.

Perhaps the not so strong skaters could do the SP and the stronger ones the LP.

Although I guess that is unfair for countries with only one available person...a true headscratcher! Maybe they should allow each team two skaters in each discipline even if they don't have one for the individual events.

TBH, they can be forced to invite a second skater just to skate in the team event.
SO if a country qualified for team event, they will have to bring 2 skaters / teams in each discipline.

On the other hand, this will hurt countries who are yet developing in FS, and give more strength for the top 3.
Because I mean, you can make it a rule, but then Russia can put out Evgenia and Alina, and it doesnt matter really. Canada, Russia and USA have enough depth to put out 2 decent althetes / teams in every discipline. Now, take a country like Australia or Korea - they would have major troubles to put out two athletes in every discipline.

 

[moriel]

Random thought - why keep team event nation based?
Olympics are way too much about national stuff anyways, so why not make team event a WTT sort of things, with 3 teams like europe, america and asia, for example?

 

[Tulipstar]

Random thought - why keep team event nation based?
Olympics are way too much about national stuff anyways, so why not make team event a WTT sort of things, with 3 teams like europe, america and asia, for example?

A nice idea, but I'm afraid that will make nations see them as even less important.

 

[ancientpeas]

A nice idea, but I'm afraid that will make nations see them as even less important.

However an Olympic team might work. If your country doesn't make the team event then the top ranked lady, man, dance and Pair team could form a team under the neutral banner. They could even do a skate off for it at one of the events like Golden Spin or Finlandia. Would add a compelling reason to watch those events. That way Javier could have competed and Korean team.

 

[johnsmith72]

However an Olympic team might work. If your country doesn't make the team event then the top ranked lady, man, dance and Pair team could form a team under the neutral banner. They could even do a skate off for it at one of the events like Golden Spin or Finlandia. Would add a compelling reason to watch those events. That way Javier could have competed and Korean team.

I really like this idea of having an Olympic Team!:thumbsup:

 

[dorispulaski]

However an Olympic team might work. If your country doesn't make the team event then the top ranked lady, man, dance and Pair team could form a team under the neutral banner. They could even do a skate off for it at one of the events like Golden Spin or Finlandia. Would add a compelling reason to watch those events. That way Javier could have competed and Korean team.

it!

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Maybe no ice dance? It's such a vastly different skill set from what the others are doing.

 

[Mango]

In this case. If it had been the case, lots of people would now be annoyed.

It is a very unfair advantage. If bigger federations don't prioritize the team event, no need to give them unfair advantages to push them.

But then nothing changes?

I guess they could go the Youth Olympics route and just have mixed NOC teams. I doubt senior skaters would want to participate or take it seriously if this happened though.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

However an Olympic team might work. If your country doesn't make the team event then the top ranked lady, man, dance and Pair team could form a team under the neutral banner. They could even do a skate off for it at one of the events like Golden Spin or Finlandia. Would add a compelling reason to watch those events. That way Javier could have competed and Korean team.

In the Ski Jumping at last year's Universiade, we had three mixed nationality teams in the Women's Team event. But, they were not eligible for the results. The reason we had mixed teams was that there were so few female ski jumpers taking part in the Universiade that if we didn't have mixed nationality teams, there would only have been 3 teams (6 jumpers) taking part in this competition!

Here are the results:

https://wuni2017.sportresult.com/hide/en/-360/Comp/Info/EventSummary/SJW470000

And don't forget about the experimental mixed nationality team format that was used in the figure skating team competition at the 2016 Youth Olympics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_2016_Winter_Youth_Olympics#Mixed_NOC_team_trophy

That was fun.

Interesting fact I just noticed: If you include that team competition in Lillehammer, then Pyeongchang is now the second Olympics where Dmitri Aliev has been in a competition where he has not been competing under his national flag.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[anonymoose_au]

And don't forget about the experimental mixed nationality team format that was used in the figure skating team competition at the 2016 Youth Olympics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_2016_Winter_Youth_Olympics#Mixed_NOC_team_trophy

That was fun.

Interesting fact I just noticed: If you include that team competition in Lillehammer, then Pyeongchang is now the second Olympics where Dmitri Aliev has been in a competition where he has not been competing under his national flag.

CaroLiza_fan

Huh that does look interesting! First I've ever heard of it. Although the Team Names are just funny, I don't know why. And Dima's Team Desire took the medal I see!

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Huh that does look interesting! First I've ever heard of it. Although the Team Names are just funny, I don't know why. And Dima's Team Desire took the medal I see!

I thought the names were funny too. I have no idea who came up with them, or why!

Yep, Dima's team won overall. Although, he finished 2nd behind Vasiljevs in the Men's segment of it.

You know, it's a pity that Sotskova only did the individual competition in Lillehammer, because we could have included her in that stat as well.

In fact, it sticks out like a sore thumb that there were no Russian ladies in the team competition.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[anonymoose_au]

I thought the names were funny too. I have no idea who came up with them, or why!

Yep, Dima's team won overall. Although, he finished 2nd behind Vasiljevs in the Men's segment of it.

You know, it's a pity that Sotskova only did the individual competition in Lillehammer, because we could have included her in that stat as well.

In fact, it sticks out like a sore thumb that there were no Russian ladies in the team competition.

CaroLiza_fan

Maybe they did that on purpose... I'm a bit confused by the draw...so they put all the competitiors names into a hat and there were less team spots then competitiors so some people missed out?

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Maybe they did that on purpose... I'm a bit confused by the draw...so they put all the competitiors names into a hat and there were less team spots then competitiors so some people missed out?

Yep, that's how I read it too.

Well, a whole pile of hats!

I can understand the organisers wanting to get teams that were roughly balanced across the categories, so that no one team was able to run away with the competition. But, it was disappointing for the fans that it led to some of the top skaters in the event not being able to take part.

More teams needed, maybe?

CaroLiza_fan

 

[ice coverage]

... You know, it's a pity that Sotskova only did the individual competition in Lillehammer, because we could have included her in that stat as well.

In fact, it sticks out like a sore thumb that there were no Russian ladies in the team competition. ...

Maybe they did that on purpose... ...

I see that anonymoose's post had a wink .

But will reply that it definitely was not on purpose that YOG figure skating competition for Mixed NOC Teams has not yet had any Russian ladies.

www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/yog2016/SEG010.HTM
www.isuresults.com/results/yog2012/SEG010.HTM​

... I'm a bit confused by the draw...so they put all the competitiors names into a hat and there were less team spots then competitiors so some people missed out?

2016 YOG had a pre-announced procedure for how skaters would be assigned to teams.
The procedure was explained as part of the qualification system for 2016 YOG.

https://www.isu.org/docman-document...15-09-15-wyog-2016-qs-isu-figure-skating-en-1 (see page 3)​

(I assume much the same was true for 2012 YOG, although I did not spend time hunting down the corresponding document for 2012.)

At YOG, skaters compete in their individual discipline first. The YOG event for Mixed NOC teams takes place afterward.

https://www.isu.org/docman-document...6/13516-yog-coloured-time-schedule-03022016-1
www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/yog2016/
www.isuresults.com/results/yog2012/​

In 2016, the first step of the pre-announced procedure for assignments to teams was based on placements in the events for individual discipline.
(Placements -- meaning that it would have been impossible to know in advance which specific skaters eventually would correspond to the placements.)
Placements in the individual events were pre-divided into groups. Such as for Men and Ladies:

Group 1: Place 1 – 5
Group 2: Place 6 – 11
Group 3: Place 12 – 16​

Then each team was formed according to a pre-determined system for draws, such as:

Team 1: Man from Group 1; Lady from Group 3; Pair from Group 2; Dancers from Group 1
Team 2: Man from Group 2; Lady from Group 2; Pair from Group 1; Dancers from Group 3
etc., etc.​

---

... More teams needed, maybe?

Only speculation, but perhaps the number of YOG pair entries has been a rate-limiting step re the number of Mixed NOC Teams?

In 2012, pairs did not compete in the YOG team event. Only the other three disciplines.
2012 YOG had only five pair entries for the individual competition.
2012 YOG had eight Mixed NOC Teams.

2016 YOG also had eight Mixed NOC Teams, which included all four disciplines.
It ended up that 2016 had ten pair entries for the individual competition.
But maybe at the time of the publication of the 2016 qualification document, the ISU did not feel sure that all ten pair spots would be filled?? Maybe the ISU worried that NOCs that were eligible to send pairs might not do so???

---

BTW, I don't remember ever hearing how 2016 YOG teams were given names (how Team 1 became Team Future, etc.).

www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/yog2016/TeamEntries.pdf​

Not sure whether 2012 YOG teams ever were given names? (I did not pay attention to YOG in real time in 2012.)

www.isuresults.com/results/yog2012/TeamEntries.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/yog2012/TEC001RS.HTM​

 

[Caro]

Honestly, I think the team event should go. They could give an opportunity to synchro skating event instead.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Honestly, I think the team event should go. They could give an opportunity to synchro skating event instead.

I'm not a fan of Synchro, but even I agree with this.

Personally, I would love to see Ice Theatre given a chance as well. I saw it when watching a livestream of French Nationals a few years ago, and I really enjoyed it. I found it much more interesting to watch than Syncho.

And what about Fours Skating? I only came across it when I was looking up a particular former Pairs skater, and she and her partner had been pretty successful in Fours competitions with another Pairs partnership. (It is basically 2 Pairs partnerships doing the same routine side by side).

I had never heard tell of either of these types of skating before. But, if they and Synchro were introduced to a big event like the Olympics, it would raise their profile massively.

Introducing different categories would also create a bit more variety. Which is what the IOC seems to want to do, what with the way they are introducing all these Freestyle disciplines to the Skiing and Snowboarding rosters.

So I don't really understand why, when they were looking for a replacement for the Compulsory Dance, they brought in something that meant that the same 4 categories were contested twice.

CaroLiza_fan