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- Dec 1, 2015
I think he's improved so much on his upper body movement.
2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating
- Thread starter Mrs. P
- Start date
I think he's improved so much on his upper body movement.
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- Dec 1, 2015
mmrice, are you saying Nathan just beat Hanyu at nHk? I didn't get a chance to see the men's FS at nhk.
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- Dec 25, 2012
noope. Yuzu was a run-away winner at NHK as most predicted, but Nathan did quite well and was a run-away silver medalist.
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- Dec 1, 2015
I think they just don't like Nathan, lol. It's kind of like others hating on Polina E because somehow she leaves them feeling "cold", lol, and apparently she's arrogant without ANY proof. i don't know what Nathan placed at NHK, didn't get a chance to watch it yet, but if he podiumed, then that's a big deal, especially with Yuzuru Hanyu there. So big congratulations to Nathan.
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- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
:eeking:NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! I was trying to say that Nathan didn't crack under the pressure of skating after the huge ovation that Hanyu the Olympic Champion and new record holder of the highest score in history, and I think that's a big deal. He also defeated 3 time World Team Member, and former US Champion Jason Brown on the way to his Silver Medal and that's what I think we should be celebrating.
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- Feb 10, 2014
Sorry. While I agree with you that Nathan delivered under pressure and took advantage of poor performances by Jason and others to gain a place at the GPF, your actual words were, "we should be heaping praise on this young man who defeated a former US Champion, Olympian, and 3 time World Team member." Leaving aside the fact that neither Jason nor Grant are 3 time World Team members, you were pretty clearly referring to Nathan defeating Jason here. You also said, "There were 3 US men here and he's the only one who made the podium."
As to why people aren't heaping praise on Nathan: sure they are, but it's unrealistic to think everyone will do so. People heap praise on those who really speak to them.
ETA you just edited the post I responded to by saying you didn't mention Grant or Jason. Now in response to someone else you say you meant Jason.
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- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
Wasn't Jason on the World team in 14,15, and 16? I realize that Jason was injured last year but, he certainly was ranked higher and if not for his injury would have been on the World Team. If not, I apologize for the mistake.
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- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
No he was only on the team in 2015. But that's not really the point of my post.
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- Mar 3, 2014
I have not even been able to bring myself to watch Jason....:sad21: But clearly Mr. Consistency was less than consistent.:disapp:
I *still* can't get excited about Nathan and I sure won't apologize for it. I hate saying this every time I post about Nathan, but I do NOT hate Nathan. I hate programs like his FS. I mean, if that FS speaks to you, fine, but it ain't even a tiny whisper to me. And Nathan has shown that he can skate a real program, as in his SP. Not Jason level, not Adam level, but really really good. So why the empty FS, when he can do better? I never thought I would say this, because I ragged on him last year, but Boyang Jin is growing on me and has far better programs this year than Nathan. As jumpers go, much rather watch him.
And Nathan didn't come out of nowhere. I put him second in the prediction game, as did many others, knowing that if he did hit those jumps, he would be rewarded. And he was.
I *still* can't get excited about Nathan and I sure won't apologize for it. I hate saying this every time I post about Nathan, but I do NOT hate Nathan. I hate programs like his FS. I mean, if that FS speaks to you, fine, but it ain't even a tiny whisper to me. And Nathan has shown that he can skate a real program, as in his SP. Not Jason level, not Adam level, but really really good. So why the empty FS, when he can do better? I never thought I would say this, because I ragged on him last year, but Boyang Jin is growing on me and has far better programs this year than Nathan. As jumpers go, much rather watch him.
And Nathan didn't come out of nowhere. I put him second in the prediction game, as did many others, knowing that if he did hit those jumps, he would be rewarded. And he was.
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- Jul 9, 2014
I did mean Jason. What I'm confused about is why it's not OK to celebrate Nathan's Podium Finish here. I LOVE Mikhail Kolyada and Nathan beat him as well. That doesn't mean I think any less of Mikhail, Nathan skated better on the day and I think it's a big deal because Nathan is so young. It's sad that trying to praise Nathan has gone so far off track. I love good skating and I don't care who's skating well, I think they deserve credit without debate. That's all I'm trying to say.
I did mean Jason. What I'm confused about is why it's not OK to celebrate Nathan's Podium Finish here. I LOVE Mikhail Kolyada and Nathan beat him as well. That doesn't mean I think any less of Mikhail, Nathan skated better on the day and I think it's a big deal because Nathan is so young. It's sad that trying to praise Nathan has gone so far off track. I love good skating and I don't care who's skating well, I think they deserve credit without debate. That's all I'm trying to say.
It's ok. I know what you mean. But like Zhenia, Nathan is a young "upstart." In figure skating many fans hate when people suddenly start winning over their favorites. Add to that he didn't skate clean and the hostility rises. Not to mention people are angry at Boyang missing the GPF.
I for one and very happy with his progress. I was very proud of his medal today and can't wait to see him grow as a skater.
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- Feb 10, 2014
I did mean Jason. What I'm confused about is why it's not OK to celebrate Nathan's Podium Finish here. I LOVE Mikhail Kolyada and Nathan beat him as well. That doesn't mean I think any less of Mikhail, Nathan skated better on the day and I think it's a big deal because Nathan is so young. It's sad that trying to praise Nathan has gone so far off track. I love good skating and I don't care who's skating well, I think they deserve credit without debate. That's all I'm trying to say.
You know, if you'd simply said, "I love Nathan and I'm so excited about the fact that he medaled today and I can't wait to see how he does at the GPF," I'd have no problem with it.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
That might be so but, that's not how I speak and that's why I didn't say it. I'm old and this is NOT the first time I've liked a particular skater. I don't believe in putting down another to build up a favorite of mine. People said absolutely horrible things about Maria Butyrskaya and Patrick Chan and they never minced words when it came to expressing their feelings to me about how they felt about my favorites. I thought Nathan did very well under the difficult circumstance of following Hanyu in his home Country after a spectacular performance. For a young skater not to crumble under the pressure of skating after that type of performance is a big deal. At least to me.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
I don't think you understand that whatever your intent, your words came off as a put down to my favorite skater, Jason. He's clearly not a favorite of yours. That's really all I can say to you. Let's just leave it.
It's not a put-down of Jason to say Nathan beat him here. It's a sport. Nathan did beat him here. That's a simple fact. I can love Jason and admit that; I'm sure Jason himself can admit that. Not admitting it is denying reality, and while there's still nationals - we'll see how they stack up for worlds - this was a bit of a big deal.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
2014: Jeremy and Max
2015: Joshua, Jason and Adam
2016: Max, Grant and Adam
You really haven't been paying attention.
I disagree that Nathan lacks musicality and artistry - I think he's great at picking up nuances in the music and he has lovely edge quality. Yuzuru was never the complete package when he started either - only showed potential to have it.
Nathan started off as "cute" or "adorable" and then he was seen as a junior with potential and then all of a sudden he's this boss who lands crazy quads that up until last season (and a few Brandon Mroz type exceptions) were considered unthinkable. I get that people view Brown and Aaron and Rippon as sentimental faves, but given the direction of men's figure skating and the crazy echelons of difficulty, it's nice to know there's at least one 1 man keeping up (and arguably breaking new technical ground). I mean the guy does a 4Z and 4F in his SP... while no other US man has even attempted anything harder than a 4S, let alone two different quads. Any country would KILL to have a skater like Nathan on the horizon. He's unequivocally the future of US skating (it could have been Brown, but his technical ability is stagnant - while he's trying to even get 1 quad, Nathan's landed 4 - different ones... and done 4 quads in one program at US nationals). I mean, if y'all don't want Chen and would prefer to keep Brown/Aaron/Rippon, Canada will gladly take him!!
I know that you probably didn't mean it this way -- but why does there only has to be *one* skater who is the be-all, end-all as far the "future" of skating?
Also Jason's trajectory has always been a long-tail approach, namely because his strengths/weaknesses force him to be. Asking Jason to suddenly go along with other skaters like Nathan learn to jump multiple quads immediately is like asking the Shibutanis to do Papadakis/Cizeron style programs. Jason has succeed not because he's gone with the jumping trend -- he's done well in SPITE of it.
Back when Jason was a novice, people were more wowed by Joshua Farris at the time because he had all his triples (except the 3A) and could do a 3-3. Jason was far behind technical wise -- he couldn't even rotate a triple loop in his FS. But yet he still generated buzz because he could do other things -- like do a step sequence that had a major tempo change in the middle of it..
IN contrast, Nathan's always been a bit of a wonder kid technically. He broke Josh Farris' Novice record two years later -- at the age of 11(Josh and Jason were 14 when they were in Novice). Actually, what we're seeing now feels like deja vu to me because four years ago, Nathan Chen was landing all his triples (including the 3A) like a boss at the mere age of 13 during his JGP event AND he had some awesome swash-buckilin' choreography to boot and Joshua Farris landed his first quad at his JGP while Jason at 18 was not only struggling to integrate the 3A, he was also having problems with his other jumps at his first JGP, which lead to a major defeat by another wonder kid in the JGP circuit -- Boyang Jin.
Back then, it look like Nathan and Joshua were going to be the "future" of figure skating and that Jason would drown as a senior. We obviously know what has happened since then.
Yes, Nathan is unique to the U.S. men that he can land multiple [edit: types of] quads. I don't dispute with you he is one player in the future of figure skating and that his approach, since he is willing and able to do it, will pay dividends as long as he does not injure himself. I do think he's shown improvements in the non-jumping side of things, but I wish there was way we could see a return to some of the excellent choreography he had as a junior. And I'd just like to see him improve the quality of the quads.
I think Jason has other unique qualities, such as an inherit charisma that enables him to to connect with the audience. People dismiss it as "performance ability" but anyone that has taken any sort of stage class knows that it is a skill that takes time to develop and some people never get to a high level. He's also a really good competitor -- who can take bad experiences and learn from them quickly -- he went from falling on his 3As at U.S. Nationals to hitting them all at Jr. Worlds and winning the FS with a record score that stuck for a season and a half. He's also generally well-trained and prepared for competitions. These are things that don't really directly contribute to base value and doesn't get the buzz, but when you add it up and things align --it's clear why Jason has outlasted a lot of his competitors as the years gone by.
I think MIM has pointed this out in an earlier post --that the longtail approach that Jason and his team have adopted can be extremely frustrating because there's a lot of short-term losses while you're waiting for things to come together. But those same unique qualities, as you pointed out, DOES help him while he waits for things to gel and for the technical aspect to catch up with the rest of his skating. He obviously got the triple loop and the rest of his non-Axel triples (he had them a year later in juniors). And while highly inconsistent at first he got the 3A and until this competition was actually doing pretty well with it this season -- consider that his 3A< in the FS was the first one of the entire season---he couldn't say that a year ago. So yeah, so goes the quad and the trajectory is likely to be similar. Does he need it -- YES. Is he still behind the top men technically -- yes as far as jumps.
The question seems to be whether Jason wins out in the long-run by having a firm foundation on the non-jumping side while he's working on the jumps while Nathan seems to be building a strong technical arsenal and waiting to see how much he can integrate additional transitions/choreography/etc. Most will assume Nathan would more likely to win. But really, for me, it's just simply two different strategies and I don't think it's a given which strategy wins out more.
In basketball, sometimes the finesse ball handling of Steph Curry and the Golden State Warriors wins the big prize (aka 2015 NBA Championships) (and even set records in the regular season), but it's not a huge surprise when the big-man physical ball of LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavilers win a year later. Jason is like Steph Curry -- his ball playing is GORGEOUS-- sounds weird I know, but his ability to move his body in crazy ways and get the impossible shots is incredible. Nathan is like LeBron James -- who is a very aggressive and strong player who can rack up the goals by just overtaking his opponents. Both are great players in their own right and have the potential to help lead their team to victory.
[And whether it was wrong for Draymond Green being suspended. which many said contributed to Golden State's loss in the NBA playoff is basketball equivalent of whether the Nathan's PCS was too high at NHK]. Nathan did a great job at NHK and deserved his medal, no doubt. However -- and you seem to be in agreement with this -- the PCS was a tad high. Likewise could LeBron James have lead his team to Cleveland's first championship in 50+ years without Green being suspended -- probably and they showed it in the the suspenseful game 7.
Wow, maybe i need to go watch some basketball now... but back to skating.. Nathan had a great result -- the best result among the U.S. men there, hands down, Jason (and Grant) skated poorly, no doubt. I look forward to seeing them battle them it out in Nationals.
Oh by the way, back to basketball, cause this is relevant -- the Golden State Warriors had gained a 3-1 lead in the playoffs by game four including handing insane double-digit defeats to the the Cleveland Cavaliers -- who looks like they were going to head home without that coveted championship. The odds of Cleveland coming back from a 3-1 series deficit seem nil. And then they won game 5. And game 6. And finally game 7 which had multiple lead changes.
And oh by the way -- so nobody accuses me of leaving Adam out -- because clearly he's a factor this season. He's like the equivalent of Kevin Durant -- who was playing for the Seattle Supersonics, then the Oklahoma Thunder but recently started playing with the Golden Skate Warriors - just like Jason and Adam seem to be "teamed" up in the same side, at least as far as people describe their competitive profile. He's a former MVP and has a style that's different from both Curry and LeBron too.
[yeah, i had too much fun writing this]
ETA: So it probably doesn't surprise anyone that I'm a Steph Curry fan. I first took notice of him when he was at Davidson, when he lead the team -- basically a mid-major among basketball giants in the NCAA-- to the elite eight a few years back. He was a major underdog -- despite having a basketball pedigree (his dad was Dell Curry who played in the NBA) -- he was overlooked by the major schools cause he was smaller than most elite college players. But he really proved those folks wrong and now has been a two-time MVP and a very successful player.
I was really sad that GS loss the NBA playoffs. But LeBron's leadership/influence on the sport deserves my respect and Cleveland wanted it more -- that's why they won.
Likewise, I respect Nathan's persistance through some tough times -- including through numerous injuries, including his Osgood Schlatter-- which was so ill timed -- basically came after that incredible JGP I referenced above. And he is a good competitor as well. When you want something-- it could be the fuel you need for success.
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I mean, if y'all don't want Chen and would prefer to keep Brown/Aaron/Rippon, Canada will gladly take him!!
Nope. We are keeping him, thank you. Nathan is going to win with mistakes because he is a competitor. He is going to win without mistakes because he is a competitor. He is going to defeat skaters that are better than him because he is a competitor. And he is going to become a better skater because he is a competitor. I always fall in love with the underdogs. (Nathan was one while he was injured during the 2014-2015 season). I almost never fall in love with athletes who compete like this. We are keeping him.
