The Loop Jump - Pre/Underrotation by all, or Spotty Technique by some?

blue dog · Feb 22, 2008

Is the loop jump prone to underrotation?

The loop jump, in my opinion, is not only one of the most difficult to do. Many skaters seem to have problem with it lately because of how it places a lot of stress on the hips. Some skates (like Jenni Tew of the US, who never made it into the top ten at nationals) landed the triple lutz before she landed a clean triple loop.

My question is--many people believe that the loop jump is prone to underrotation. Is this due to the mechanics of the jump (a jump, which many skating coaches believe has similar mechanics to the flip, which isn't as ding'd for UR as often as the loop), or is this due to spotty technique by some skaters?

Medusa · Feb 22, 2008

I think that the loop is a beautiful jump - and some skaters can do it so well. :love:

Lambiel e.g.
For others it looks like really hard work, Weir e.g. - he always says it's his least favourite.

But I always thought that the loops are mostly underrotated when done as the second combo-jump. And as a combo-jump - the loop is ugly, especially the triple loop, it always looks underrotated to me. Ando and Asada do the best combo-loop - but still ugly in my opinion...

Is the loop also underrotated when done as a solo-jump? I never got the feeling - but will check the zebra doing it in slow motion right away...

Tinymavy15 · Feb 22, 2008

all the coaches who ever taught me the double loop teach me to "hook" the takeoff so yes, you are supposed to get a little bit of pre-rotation. If you didn't double would be very hard, triples impossible.

blue dog · Feb 22, 2008

Medusa, I think you may be on to something. It seems the loop is most UR in a combo, but some skaters have had trouble with the solo loop...

Here are some examples of the loop:

(The first ever)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TnQIuAPMsgo

I have no idea who Jamie is, and besides the two-foot, this triple is pretty good
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nGweHuOnVz4

Luca Lalai (yes, a rollerskater)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=B10nPXQk2nI

Irina Slutskaya (she doesn't UR her 3s/3r combo)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HSWtcD6fKlc

Eric Millot (first 3r/3r)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KaAqjdt1wcI

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 22, 2008

^ I agree. It is a tough edge jump and few really can make it a nice program move, but have to slow down as a special trick. It is much easier to hide it in a combo where no can really see the pre-rotations on the ice.

Joe

museksk8r · Feb 22, 2008

I think Joannie Rochette, Stephane Lambiel, and Jeremy Abbott have the best 3loops in the world of today's current skaters. I love how Stephane and Jeremy are able to effortlessly do the jump out of 3-turns and footwork to make it look so easy and artistic. Joannie's amplitude is tremendous, almost looks like she could fit a 4th rotation in the air it's so huge.

skatergirl45 · Feb 22, 2008

Loops are hard because of how your body is aligned when you go to jump. In toe/lutz/flip, you get the toe pick to launch yourself up. In the salchow, you have your kicking foot and in the axel you have your knee to push you up. In the loop, you do have your knee but it is harder to get extra speed/height. But, it is an added bonus when you do.
My opinion is that loops are almost impossible to do with a one footed entry. I am starting my double loop soon and can barely do a single loop with one foot. That is why 3/3 with triple toes as the second jump tend to work better.

gkelly · Feb 22, 2008

I think that because the takeoff and the landing are on the same edge, there doesn't need to be any weight shift in the air, so it is possible to go up into the air, rotate some fraction of a full rotation (plus one or two additional rotations), and come down on the correct edge, and therefore "land" the jump successfully even without full rotation.

With most other jumps, if you don't complete the rotation, you're less likely to come down on a back outside edge and therefore more likely to fall. So if that's the best you can do, you don't put the jump in your program.

blue dog · Feb 25, 2008

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm starting to see some sort of a body type difference between those who land the (triple) loop consistently versus those who start having trouble with it.

More "athletic" body types (Irina Slutskaya, Tonya Harding, Ashley Wagner) tend to pull this jump off rather cleanly. They seem to struggle with other triples (the flip, for instance, which is strange--the flip has similar mechanics to the loop).

The skaters with lankier body types (Kwan, Kim, Volchkova) tend to have trouble with the loop, or land it for a while, then begin having trouble with it. But those skaters don't have as much trouble with the flip or the lutz for that matter.

Years ago, there was almost a eastern/western division with the loop jump. The Russian skaters (and skaters from the Soviet era) performed that jump beautifully. Slutskaya, Butyrskaya (when she was clean), Sokolova (when she was clean), the late Ivanova, Baiul, etc, could land it better than their western counterparts. I always felt that in the case of Kwan, Bobek, Chen, etc, it was their weakest triple.

Of course, there are always exceptions to this--Lipinski (IMO, although she landed 3r/3r consistently, her loops were tiny) landed the loop with the same rate of consistency as those Russian skaters. Then, of course, there is Liashenko, who, in the later stages of her career took out the loop entirely (rumoured to be her least favourite jump).

Tinymavy15 · Feb 25, 2008

blue dog said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm starting to see some sort of a body type difference between those who land the (triple) loop consistently versus those who start having trouble with it.

More "athletic" body types (Irina Slutskaya, Tonya Harding, Ashley Wagner) tend to pull this jump off rather cleanly. They seem to struggle with other triples (the flip, for instance, which is strange--the flip has similar mechanics to the loop).

The skaters with lankier body types (Kwan, Kim, Volchkova) tend to have trouble with the loop, or land it for a while, then begin having trouble with it. But those skaters don't have as much trouble with the flip or the lutz for that matter.

I think you have somthing there. The 3 loops required a lot of strength. The slender skaters would have problems with it.

passion · Feb 25, 2008

Yuka Sato had a gorgeous textbook loop!

blue dog · Feb 25, 2008

Tinymavy15 said:
I think you have somthing there. The 3 loops required a lot of strength. The slender skaters would have problems with it.

Perhaps it's also a center of gravity issue. Those skaters tended to be shorter than the "lankier" skaters. Yuka Sato, whom passion gave as an excellent example of a triple loop, was shorter than the others--and she had the (IMO) best triple loop of the ladies in the early 90's. Katarina Witt, before she "grew" had an excellent triple loop (I think her problem with it was mental; the only thing that threw her off mentally).

Again, there are exceptions LOL (Caryn Kadavy, who seems lankier, had a beautiful triple loop).

ks777 · Feb 25, 2008

I don't think the body type matters. Caroline Kostner is lanky yet her loop is gorgeous. Mao has the same body type as Yuna and loves the loop jump.
Nana Takeda is also tall but has a beautiful loop jump. Yukari Nakano is short and not too skinny yet she hasn't done that jump for awhile. Sarah Hughes was once lanky too.

mizu_iro · Feb 25, 2008

ks777 said:
I don't think the body type matters. Caroline Kostner is lanky yet her loop is gorgeous. Mao has the same body type as Yuna and loves the loop jump.
Nana Takeda is also tall but has a beautiful loop jump. Yukari Nakano is short and not too skinny yet she hasn't done that jump for awhile. Sarah Hughes was once lanky too.

To add to that: Butyrskaya was very thin and the loop was her most beautiful jump by far. The willowy Chen had a pretty consistent (and very beautiful) loop straight out of a forward spiral; it was the lutz that gave Lulu the most problems. And maybe my memory's not that great, but I think Sasha made relatively few mistakes on her loops.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 25, 2008

passion said:
Yuka Sato had a gorgeous textbook loop!

Finding fault with Yuka Sato is not easy. She would have made an incredible CoP skater.

Joe

blue dog · Feb 26, 2008

Since the loop is almost always UR, how much UR, would you say, is acceptable? Should they give it more leeway than other jumps, since it seems to be the most UR of the jumps?

Unlike other jumps, this one also seems to cause more long-term injuries. I've never heard of skaters taking out the lutz or the flip because a major body part (the hip) hurt. The loop, on the other hand, has been removed from the arsenal of a few skaters because it hurt their hips. I'm assuming, then, that the power from the loop is derived from the hips--which, in a way, is why shorter, stockier (not to be offensive), skaters with larger hips...tend to do better with this jump.

Mafke · Feb 26, 2008

Joesitz said:
Finding fault with Yuka Sato is not easy. She would have made an incredible CoP skater.

It's kind of a shame that she had to compete under the judging system that was least able to recognize her considerable talents.

She excelled at figures and had they not been dumped, she would be a strong OGM contender.

Under CoP her mistakes in the SP wouldn't take her firmly out of the running.

But really, she's one a very few skaters that seemed to excel at every kind of skating (figures, free skating, pairs and I be she'd have been an excellent dancer with a suitable partner). Kurt Browning is another (who did well in figures, free skating and has better dance skills than some WC ice dancers (though he's probably too slight for pairs).

vlaurend · Feb 26, 2008

gkelly said:
I think that because the takeoff and the landing are on the same edge, there doesn't need to be any weight shift in the air, so it is possible to go up into the air, rotate some fraction of a full rotation (plus one or two additional rotations), and come down on the correct edge, and therefore "land" the jump successfully even without full rotation.

With most other jumps, if you don't complete the rotation, you're less likely to come down on a back outside edge and therefore more likely to fall. So if that's the best you can do, you don't put the jump in your program.

Exactly! It's the only jump that really takes off from the same edge as the landing edge, so it's like a single back outside circle with a jump that breaks the circle for any fraction of its circumfrence. (This is not true of the other RBO takeoff edge jump--the toeloop--because the toe assist means that the toe of the other foot is actually the last thing to leave the ice, causing a weight shift).

As for difficulty, the loop jump is difficult but simple. It is difficult in the sense that there is no free leg assist so all of the power must come from the jumping leg. On the other hand, the loop jump is technically simpler, since it's the only jump where there is no adjustment of weight or position between the takeoff edge and the rotational position in the air. The lutz and flip are similar to the loop at the point of takeoff, but both require the skater to pull back and shift the weight from the skating leg (front) to the picking leg (back) on takeoff. Some skaters don't quite make it and end up pitched forward.

GoldMedalist · Feb 27, 2008

blue dog said:
I have no idea who Jamie is, and besides the two-foot, this triple is pretty good
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nGweHuOnVz4

Underrotated, not double footed, just to clarify.

blue dog · Feb 27, 2008

GoldMedalist said:
Underrotated, not double footed, just to clarify.

Thanks for the "correction"

What is your take on the loop jump, GM?

The Loop Jump - Pre/Underrotation by all, or Spotty Technique by some?

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