2014-15 Japanese Nationals Mens FS

[lakeside]

Really? I did not know theses two are debatable. By my standard, they showed convincing characters on the ice, even though not technically perfect.

Hanyu's Phantom is way more convincing than these two. If you want to say Hanyu is not convincing, then use better examples. Fernandez? Looks like he's skating to Chaplin again rather than Figaro - well, he always skates to the same kind of funny programs and it gets boring after several seasons. So Youn? Come on, anyone's R&J program is better than hers. Even Lipnitskaia, who's having tech problems this season, plays a better Juliet, not to mention Sasha's beautiful Juliet.

 

[matmuh]

Thank you for your response. Yes, I am aware of his life threatening experiences in 2011 tsunami/earthquake and 2014 accident. I admire his bravery how he coped with such a disaster that he doesn't have any control of. With all due respect, I did not mean he is lacking tragic life experiences. It was about his skating style that is light and lyrical to portray a character of despair, darkness, seclusion, etc. (sorry, I was not clear in my post.) True, he did not perform 100% up to his potential as you said, but his emotion and presentation was almost perfect at national. But I felt like a tenor sings baritone. After watching the POTO in New York few weeks ago, I just felt there is a depth of character which combined with the music gave me another dimension to understand the story and character. It was totally different experience than just listening to the music. In terms of visual realization of the character on the ice, I prefer Mura's skating style and presence. Well,, I guess I like the convincing character on the ice; Fernandez to Figaro, So Youn to Juliet, and Yulia to a little girl in a red coat.

also thank you for responding, i understand where you are coming from, maybe because he is light (and really slim) he may not look strong but when you look at THIS video i think he shows at 6:33 and at 7:45 he can show darkness and despair,maybe not with his light style but emotions i feel that he portrays as important as being masculine while skating,i feel it when he skates thats why i prefer his skating to POTO more than mura, well i prefer his skating to anyone even with his flaws so you can say i am biased

 

[Meoima]

From Yuzuru's thread. He is hospitalized. No wonder he couldn't do the gala.

@Kalina, Yuzu''s forum
Yuzuru was hospitalized so that he can be examined properly for his stomach pain. He lost 3 kgs because of the fatigue.
https://twitter.com/yuzu_ka127/status/549326707316883458
Poor kid. I'm worried right now...

He was 53kg at the beginning of his season. Does that mean he is just 50kg now???

 

[Sandpiper]

From Yuzuru's thread. He is hospitalized. No wonder he couldn't do the gala.

He was 53kg at the beginning of his season. Does that mean he is just 50kg now???

What?! Why do these things always happen to him? I'm so behind on all things Japanese Nationals, but every time I check it's bad news after bad news.

 

[MIM]

Hanyu's Phantom is way more convincing than these two. If you want to say Hanyu is not convincing, then use better examples.

I just wanted to keep the examples current as the technical requiments are more demanding than any previous seasons and it is certainly hard to skate and act with thoses higher standards.

Anyways you have good eyes to pick good examples for the character driven skating programs and skaters. And if you think your examples are not a better casting than yuzu's, then let us agree to disagree.

Fernandez? Looks like he's skating to Chaplin again rather than Figaro - well, he always skates to the same kind of funny programs and it gets boring after several seasons.

Fernandez was marvelous skating to Chaplin, but he had a lot less choreos and simpler steps in comparison to the Barber in Seville. If you say Chaplin and figaro are the same funny thing, IDK they are as different as Jim carry and Robin Williams. It is dangerous to generalize all the characters in a somewhat similar genre. I see the vivid difference(I watched them back to back twice to make sure. If you don't see, that's fine.) Bravo to Javier and the choreovrapher! (I just wish his choreos were less complex so that Javier has more chances to give off his character while keeping up the mischievous and fast tone of music). He does not stay in the same category of character always. His sp has a different vibe- modern and sexy. I like that he explores new characters maximizing his style of skating.

So Youn? Come on, anyone's R&J program is better than hers. Even Lipnitskaia, who's having tech problems this season, plays a better Juliet, not to mention Sasha's beautiful Juliet.

I think acting and skating are two different skill sets that elite skaters have to work on simultaneously. That makes ice dancing so interesting and versatile. Some skaters are better in skating than acting, others vice-versa. Sasha and Yulia are both established skaters with both great acting and skating skills. I think So Youn has as euqually good acting skill as thoses two, not necessarily her skating skill yet in skating to R&J.

Bottom line, Yuzu is the superb skater. He does 3a3t and 3a1l3s like nothing and his ss has been improving. But I think his acting quality is not as superior as his insane skating quality. I felt his R&J was a right fit for him, thus much more engaging and alive even when he fell during the stsq.
No doubt he is a diamond with tremendous natural talent, amazing work ethics, and dedication. I just think he deserves the right vehicle to enhance his skating style and carries his emotion to the next level, not the one he has to make up for the gap or unconformity.

 

[lakeside]

Bravo to Javier and the choreovrapher! (I just wish his choreos were less complex so that Javier has more chances to give off his character while keeping up the mischievous and fast tone of music). He does not stay in the same category of character always. His sp has a different vibe- modern and sexy. I like that he explores new characters maximizing his style of skating.
...
I just think he deserves the right vehicle to enhance his skating style and carries his emotion to the next level, not the one he has to make up for the gap or unconformity.

A little double standard for you to pick on Yuzuru while exaggerating Fernandez' and So Youn's acting abilities. If you say Cappellini and Lanotte's Barber in Seville, then I can at least see they're acting in the story. Fernandez' Barber in Seville is just music playing in background, while Fernandez does some Pirate of the Caribbean or Chaplin parody or whatever that's unrelated to the story. And his sp is copying Yuzuru's Parisienne Walkways but without Yuzuru's speed and wildness. Fernandez is the one who should get "the right vehicle to enhance his skating style and carry his emotion to the next level," instead of repeating himself and copying his friend.

OTOH, Yuzuru is capable of skating to very different styles of music, such as PW, R&J, Chopin Ballade no. 1, and POTP. He is the one who "explores new characters maximizing his style of skating."

Some skaters are better in skating than acting, others vice-versa. Sasha and Yulia are both established skaters with both great acting and skating skills. I think So Youn has as euqually good acting skill as thoses two, not necessarily her skating skill yet in skating to R&J.

No, So Youn has neither skating skills nor acting skills. Like Johnny Weir commented on her R&J, "So Youn is 17 years old, Elena Radionova is 15 years old, and you'll notice the big difference in the components, as we say the artistic side of skating. So Youn's eye glances down instead of straight into the audience. You'll see the big difference despite the fact that they're both teenagers. This [R&J] program's just jump to spin to step sequence. I can't wait to see her develop more as an artist." Btw, Yulia's R&J is a current program.

 

[OS]

Haven't read anything haven't watched mens until now! Wow just want to say Kozuka really delivered one of the great FS skate this season. Totally unexpected! I don't think he has skated as good as this, it was a totally inspired. Who knew he just need bit of a Bocelli. I like this program for him very much.

LOL at Coach Sato. He is usually very Zen/Yoda about the whole thing, but his bursting of pride and doing the two fist pumping in the air at the end was very very amusing, and touching!

 

[OS]

Hanyu's Phantom is way more convincing than these two. If you want to say Hanyu is not convincing, then use better examples. Fernandez? Looks like he's skating to Chaplin again rather than Figaro - well, he always skates to the same kind of funny programs and it gets boring after several seasons. So Youn? Come on, anyone's R&J program is better than hers. Even Lipnitskaia, who's having tech problems this season, plays a better Juliet, not to mention Sasha's beautiful Juliet.

Figaro was written as theatrical comedy/opera, so actually Chaplin was really doing variation of Figaro. I whole heartedly disagree with your view on R&J. So Youn's R&J is one of the best choreographed program this year and was thoughtfully interpreted as appropriate to the music intention. It is by no means perfect yet, but the improvement in performance is encouraging at each outing, more than what I can say for most of other programs this year. Elena's program cease to be fresh, when freshness is one of her great qualities at season debut, but it can only last 1 season as we expect more maturity from her in a SENIOR ladies event.

I like some of Johnny's skating, but Johnny's artistry is never that sophisticated to begin with, although he does execute moves more finely than majority of the men based on some specific romantic idea of Russian ballet skating that is far from reality. He is simply wrong to simplify "looking at judges/outward projection = good projection", when the more correct way of looking at performances should be weighed according to music intentions, creative direction of the choreographed program and interpret as appropriate. There are many different ways to interpretation including modest and intelligent. As long as So Youn can deliver cinematic romanticism that is true to the character of Juliet and draws audiences in (who has many internal monologues in Shakespeare's play to begin with) as prescribed by the music, she did her job well. Lipnitskaia's R&J was poorly structured fusion confusion, music was carelessly edited. A total mismash of music from two films with unrelated story arch, choreography and interpretation without an obvious direction. Her interpretation has no bearing on the character of Juliet from the play, and serves no purpose other than than pleasant background music for COP skating. Actually this problem happens to most of Russian's figure skating programs, Liza and Elena's program too, that is why I strongly disagree they should earn such high marks for Choreography and Interpretation.

I'd argue Russian's skating's greatest weakness is they appear to weigh too much on outward expressions and failed to take in the complexity and sophistication or the essence of the music. This may suit programs like Alena's Chaplin program, but the same approach should not apply to everything else. Too much pantomime theatre - about surface, form, 'poor acting' and not enough attention on substance, depth of feelings and essences or emotional resonance. Most of the youngsters programs are rough, brash and lack maturity and sophistication, junior paint by numbers programs. No colour gradients, no shade, interesting shapes, no creativity or originality.

You look at most of Russian babies program for example this season vs someone like Satoko's Miss Saigon for example, they make telling contrasts. Satoko's natural style appear more refined nuanced subtle (although from studious/practised disposition) This may suit the perceived romantic notion of Miss Saigon but may not suited to European Classicals that requires more outwards projection. Something like Carmen for example may be a challenging program for Satoko, although probably comes more naturally easy for a Russian/Western skater... Get any of them to do a decent Miss Saigon however, then it becomes a great challenge. Although to be fair, there aren't that many good Carmen to begin with. It is also one of the reasons I really enjoyed Isadora William's Memoir of a Geisha program, and wished Julia had stuck with her first choice FS for Mulan. She should trust her gut instinct more but the sabotage was done already at the test skate. Anyone got any her test skate for Mulan? I'd really like to see it.

The only lady that has a good balance of everything from Russia I have seen this season is Maria Artemieva. She might have them because of her greater life experience and maturity like it had been with Akiko who were able to overcome their cultural barriers and put out well rounded programs with a bit more deeper reading.

 

[Ophelia]

I'd argue Russian's skating's greatest weakness is they appear to weigh too much on outward expressions and failed to take in the complexity and sophistication or the essence of the music. This may suit programs like Alena's Chaplin program, but the same approach should not apply to everything else. Too much pantomime theatre - about surface, form, 'poor acting' and not enough attention on substance, depth of feelings and essences or emotional truth. Most of the youngsters programs are rough, brash and lack maturity and sophistication, they are junior paint by numbers programs. No colour gradients, no shade, interesting shapes, no creativity or originality..

Solid point. I call it the Russian drama school of overemoting. Radianova, Sotnikova, amd Pogorilaya are esp. guilty of over the top theatrics.

The difference in styles might more of a cultural thing. There's a distinct divide in style between the Russian skaters and the Japanese and Korean skaters.

 

[evangeline]

Solid point. I call it the Russian drama school of overemoting. Radianova, Sotnikova, amd Pogorilaya are esp. guilty of over the top theatrics.

???

Pogorilaya has zero expression in her skating; her Firebird costume does all the emoting in her LP.

 

[silverfoxes]

Why is the Japanese men's FS thread suddenly all about bashing Russian female skaters?

 

[Sandpiper]

Ahem, attempting to bring this back on topic... I really should stop getting drawn into certain arguments.

Having finally seen all the performances, I think the team selection is fair enough. I do think Shoma has a case over Mura, since who knows what could happen in the future... But Mura did skate decently, and never gave up on the performance when he made mistakes. Over the season he has proved himself a viable candidate at Worlds.

I really don't know why I'm starting to like Mura. Like Rika, he has numerous obvious weaknesses--weaker SS, choreography that makes no sense, "timing" part of "interpretation timing" is not there... But he does have very impressive jumps, and somehow he's able to use those big jumps to make his entire performance seem more powerful. If Yuzuru's jumps are a work of art, then Mura's are a bombastic rock song.

So happy for Kozuka, and how he fought for everything! His skating and his programs are marvelous. But he still has things to work on before Worlds--jumps still aren't getting much lift and look UR... I'm afraid if he skates like he did here, he'll get out-GOE'd by those pesky Russians.

 

[HanDomi]

I still can't get tired of replaying over and over Yuzuru's quad toe from FS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLnlfEjAFHU#t=75


His quad toe technique is just superb without any waiting point before jumping, just at full speed straight to jump

 

[wonderlen3000]

i think it make sense for Shoma to go to junior. While he was great the last two previous competition, his score just not going to cut it. Having a world junior title has some brownie point when he moved to senior and he will get better PCS. It's always suck for juniors to wait for their turn to get good PCS, but unfortunately it is the game you have to play in figure skating. =(

 

[Violet Bliss]

Shoma has a mature and graceful style to his skating in contrast to his size and youthful appearance though his programs are simpler than the very top skaters'. However, I noticed he was exhausted when he finished his LP so he still needs training to adjust to the Senior programs. It is probably a good idea for him to get more competitive experience and titles in the Junior rank, considering the deep Senior Men field in Japan, even with another retirement.

 

[OS]

???

Pogorilaya has zero expression in her skating; her Firebird costume does all the emoting in her LP.

She has as much dramatics as Machida's firebird. I wouldn't call it ZERO expression. Firebird isn't suppose to project "audience friendly", wink and a smile. They need to be simply appear aloof and entitled as if they are otherworldly supernatural creatures. That is why Machida's firebird worked for me in that sense. His Ode to joy devoid of joy on the other hand less so. Really sorry to see him go. Even I don't agree with his interpretation, he is without a doubt one of the best skaters in the world with alot of talent and bravado. I will miss him.

Why is the Japanese men's FS thread suddenly all about bashing Russian female skaters?

Better to pollute one thread than multiple threads. Hardly bashing, these opinions are valid when compare styles, content, pros and cons. Life being compartmentalized is so conventional!!

 

[lakeside]

Why is the Japanese men's FS thread suddenly all about bashing Russian female skaters?

I want to ask this question too. Why does somebody want to use every opportunity to bash Russian ladies and hold a second-tier Korean skater up? Just because that skater is Korean? Come on, Yuna Kim is remembered as one of the skating queens, but that doesn't mean Yuna fans should bash all Russian ladies in order to hold some second-tier Korean up.

So Youn's R&J is one of the best choreographed program this year and was thoughtfully interpreted as appropriate to the music intention. ... As long as So Youn can deliver cinematic romanticism that is true to the character of Juliet and draws audiences in (who has many internal monologues in Shakespeare's play to begin with) as prescribed by the music, she did her job well. Lipnitskaia's R&J was poorly structured fusion confusion, music was carelessly edited.

So Youn's R&J is a well choreographed program, but she has no interpretation because she does not try to play Juliet at all. She just skates through the program, from jump to spin to step sequence. Yulia's program is not as well choreographed and the music is not well cut, but she's just a more fit Juliet than So Youn. I'm not going to waste my time to reply your long bashing of Johnny and all other Russian ladies.

 

[OS]

Shoma has a mature and graceful style to his skating in contrast to his size and youthful appearance though his programs are simpler than the very top skaters'. However, I noticed he was exhausted when he finished his LP so he still needs training to adjust to the Senior programs. It is probably a good idea for him to get more competitive experience and titles in the Junior rank, considering the deep Senior Men field in Japan, even with another retirement.

I am more excited by him than Nam and other Japanese guys (apart from Hanyu). It remains to be seen if he will suffer from physique disadvantages in this sport, because even he doesn't skate small, he IS small among the senior men. It will be interesting to hear from live audiences on how he measure up against the likes of Abbot, Maxim, even Hanyu, his impression mark may suffer like Miyahara does.

Actually I remember seeing Liza live at Moscow WC 2011 (also saw her at Golden Spin last year) along with Adelina for the Gala. Their physical presentation is really diminished by having seen Carolina, Yuna and Miki in comparison. I was a big Liza fan even then, but thought Liza looks more impressive on camera, but physically at the time, she doesn't measure up according to that gala and you can immediately tell what is a junior skater vs a senior.

I agree JSF should cultivate him carefully, solid footing, slowly and surely for a long run. I love he has his own unique style that is very different from Hanyu, and yes it does remind people of Daisuke at the moment (did he admit Dai is his fav skater?), but he need room to develop his style, perfecting his techniques etc.. Beside his surname is good as Gracie's Gold. Uno = No.1

So Youn's R&J is a well choreographed program, but she has no interpretation because she does not try to play Juliet at all. She just skates through the program, from jump to spin to step sequence. Yulia's program is not as well choreographed and the music is not well cut, but she's just a more fit Juliet than So Youn. I'm not going to waste my time to reply your long bashing of Johnny and all other Russian ladies.

Your 'no interpretation' pretty much explains your ability to read interpretation Hey no hard feelings, it is okay to disagree once in a while.

 

[yyyskate]

. His Ode to joy devoid of joy on the other hand less so. Really sorry to see him go. Even I don't agree with his interpretation, he is without a doubt one of the best skaters in the world with alot of talent and bravado. I will miss him.

OS please watch Machida's final Ode to Joy performance at National. He is SMILING all the way through his step sequence. it really touched my heart. I really felt his interpretation and perfect for that music. that is when I started to love that program/performance. a very precious and genuine smile.

....
...
and I am not going to waste my time to defend SoYoun's R&J to some poster here, just so you know, lots of people disagree, e.g. euro sports boyz, CBC boyz and girlz.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I believe Shoma will grow some more physically. He does not have a childish face but his build is still childlike, with a proportionally large head. His body will grow to match that head.

Scott Hamilton is 5ft 2in and his small physique did not hurt his chances. Shawn Swayer is 5' 3" but it was not his size that kept him off the international podium.