2014-2015 GPF Mens Short Program 12/12

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Thank you WYW. But really, would any sane person looking at Machida's 4T+3T(stepout) say it deserves LOWER grade of execution than Hanyu's 3Z+3T(fall)?

 

[cdngirl]

I was there and Machida was definitely underscored. There is no way Kovtun should be a breadth within Machida's range when Kovtun's jumps had shaky landings and his skating skills, program choreography, and general performance ability were definitely lesser to Machida's.

Thank you for this and especially because you were seeing it live. I always feel that Machida is underscored.

 

[Red Helicopter]

Thank you WYW. But really, would any sane person looking at Machida's 4T+3T(stepout) say it deserves LOWER grade of execution than Hanyu's 3Z+3T(fall)?

By the way, doesn't it look like one or both jumps in Hanyu's combo should be marked as underrotated?

 

[HanDomi]

By the way, doesn't it look like one or both jumps in Hanyu's combo should be marked as underrotated?

Both jumps in Hanyu combination was rotated. Machida 3T after quad was URed but somehow they not marked this in protocols

 

[lavender]

He did. He openly uses racial slurs as well.

Wow...now I know why I just could not warm up to him even before the Olympics.

 

[yyyskate]

Hanyu's pcs are ok. And Parisienne Walkaways >>>>> Chopin if you ask me.

This, I strongly disagree.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Both jumps in Hanyu combination was rotated. Machida 3T after quad was URed but somehow they not marked this in protocols

The 3T was borderline, and not obviously UR in my opinion. The tech specialist probably gave him the benefit of the doubt. But to me, a jump being barely rotated enough (obviously rotated enough to be ratified, but not an unambiguously full rotation though) isn't as bad as two jumps with a lean and being forward on the landing of the first one, and then a fall on the 2nd one.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

This, I strongly disagree.

I think Chopin is artistically more nuanced and mature, however Parisienne Walkways is more intricate, and has better choreography in between the elements that show a complete skating skill set.

 

[yyyskate]

I think Chopin is artistically more nuanced and mature, however Parisienne Walkways is more intricate, and has better choreography in between the elements that show a complete skating skill set.

I disagree...

 

[HanDomi]

The 3T was borderline, and not obviously UR in my opinion. The tech specialist probably gave him the benefit of the doubt. But to me, a jump being barely rotated enough (obviously rotated enough to be ratified, but not an unambiguously full rotation though) isn't as bad as two jumps with a lean and being forward on the landing of the first one, and then a fall on the 2nd one.

Maybe you are right. I don't know how are the rules with this GOE punishmenet on falls, and why Hanyu got -2. Maybe it has something to do with 2nd half and grades. Anyway I think his quad should get higher GOE so we are at the same score still

I think Voronov could get a bit higher, not Hanyu lower

 

[samson]

The 3T was borderline, and not obviously UR in my opinion. The tech specialist probably gave him the benefit of the doubt. But to me, a jump being barely rotated enough (obviously rotated enough to be ratified, but not an unambiguously full rotation though) isn't as bad as two jumps with a lean and being forward on the landing of the first one, and then a fall on the 2nd one.

But here's the thing. The judges agree with you. Before factoring Hanyu does have a lower GOE. It's only after you factor the jumps that Machida ends up with a heavier penalty. To add insult to injury the same thing happens with Hanyu's quad and Machida's lutz but in the opposite direction. Hanyu's larger +GOE there is amplified by the factoring rules.

 

[AprilS]

Again: levels of steps and spins are evaluated only by Base Value. Yes, Machida lost something on it, but this "something" is only 2 points. If difference of final score was 2 points, I wouldn't have asked any question.
So where they took the other 4 points with similar quality of execution? Overscoring of Hanyu is the most obvious explanation.

Actually, the GOE on their non-jump elements weren't too far appart- the difference in CCSp and FCSp was 0.15 for both in Hanyu's favour. Not that much of a difference, though I think they could have been closer with hanyu scored lower or machida higher. The CCoSp3p4 was 0.36 in Hanyu's favour. Here, I think Hanyu should have been scored slightly lower and much closer to Machida. Step sequence was 0.57 in Hanyu's favour and this I agree with. That step sequence is pretty darn amazing. For the 3A, Hanyu got 0.86 more in GOE, which is pretty legit, and I wouldn't have argued if the difference was even larger.

The interesting part is next and is a continuation of my earlier post. It also may serve as a large part of the "explanation" you're looking for:
The difference in extra points (meaning factored GOE and second half bonus) for Machida's 4T and Hanyu's 3Lz combo, not including the -1 deduction is 1.25 in Hanyu's's favor. With the -1 deduction, the difference is 0.25 in Machida's favor. Had Machida gotten all -2's and Hanyu all -3's, it would have been 1.05 in ,again, Hanyu's favour. Surprising, I know. But completely legitimate per the rules. Then the whole factored GOE comes into play again, when we add up the GOE for Machida's lutz and Hanyu's 4T. Machida got lower GOE on his lutz (because it's harder to get high GOE on "easier" triples than it is quads) and when factored, he got 0.8 GOE. Had it not been factored, it would have been 1.14. Hanyu, on the other hand, got high GOE (whom some say could have been higher- I say 2.0 is fine) on his 4T. That isn't factored lower - he got the full GOE and therefore 2.0 GOE points. That's a difference of 1.2 points in Hanyu's favor due to Machida doing better on an "easier" triple as opposed to a quad. And this is where a big chunk of the TES difference comes from.

TL;DR: it's better to do very good on higher GOE factoring elements like quads and 3A's, and then totally screw up lower factoring GOE elements like a 3Lz than it is to do
mediocre high GOE factoring elements and then do well on a 3Lz.

Edit. It seems samson said it first while I was typing this whole thing up lol. Here's an analysis though.

Edit: whoops, forgot to add in Machida's 3Lz second half bonus too. It makes a 0.6 difference, I think?

 

[Silvia451]

Well, I'm not an expert, I just say what I think based on comparing the scores with other scores from past years. Hanyu and Machida look so graceful and it's always beautiful to watch them (even with mistakes). IMO Hanyu's fall and Machida's little mistake didn't affect their PCS.

Anyway, the judges have the last word

edit: I guess I'm still emotionally attached to Parisienne walkways because I also think it was better.

 

[WYW]

Thank you WYW. But really, would any sane person looking at Machida's 4T+3T(stepout) say it deserves LOWER grade of execution than Hanyu's 3Z+3T(fall)?

Haha, IMO for sure falling is worse. Do I think this system is lenient on penalizing falls? Absolutely 100%. Some judges gave Hanyu -2s, again it is justifiable. IMO that should have been a clear -3, but others may not think so- So, am I right or are the judges giving -2 right? I will think I am right, he/she will think they are right. This is why we average the GOE's of the judges to obtain a balanced perspective.

 

[Scovies]

That's what I'm talking about: only 2 points more in base value, but 6 points more in total TES. That means 4 points difference of GOE. And this's the difference that I wish to be explained. By now, I've only one explanations: Hanyu was significantly overscored.

I'll break it down, point-by-point:

Hanyu’s spin base values: 9.7.
Hanyu’s spin GOEs: 2.72
Total: 12.42

Machida’s spin base values: 9.3
Machida’s spin GOEs: 2.06
Total: 11.36

Advantage: Hanyu by 1.06

Hanyu’ step sequence base value: 3.9
Hanyu’s step sequence GOE: 1.5
Total: 5.4

Machida’s step squence base value: 3.3
Machida’s step sequence GOE: 0.93
Total: 4.23

Advantage: Hanyu by 1.17.

Hanyu’s 3A: 9.35 base value (2nd half) + 2.43 GOE = 11.78
Machida’s 3A: 8.5 base value + 1.57 GOE = 10.07

Advantage: Hanyu by 1.71.

Hanyu’s solo jump (4T): 10.3 base value + 2.00 GOE = 12.30
Machida’s solo jump (3Lz, 2nd half): 6.6 + 0.80 GOE = 7.4

Advantage: Hanyu by 4.9

With all those taken into consideration, Hanyu has a lead of 8.84 over Machida. Now let’s look at the jump combinations:

Hanyu’s 3Lz-3T (2nd half, with fall) = 11.11 base value - 1.9 GOE (with the high and low scores dropped out, he had five -3’s and two -2’s) = 9.21.
Machida’s 4T-3T = 14.4 base value - 2.14 GOE (with the high and low scores dropped, he had six -2‘s and one -3) = 12.26

Advantage: Machida by 3.05

So now Hanyu’s lead in TES is cut down to 5.79, and that’s where the difference comes from. Also consider this: the TES scores don’t show the 1.00 deduction Hanyu got for the fall, which is added at the end of the program. It's up to you whether or not you think the GOEs they got were justified.

 

[samson]

Actually, the GOE on their non-jump elements weren't too far appart- the difference in CCSp and FCSp was 0.15 for both in Hanyu's favour. Not that much of a difference, though I think they could have been closer with hanyu scored lower or machida higher. The CCoSp3p4 was 0.36 in Hanyu's favour. Here, I think Hanyu should have been scored slightly lower and much closer to Machida. Step sequence was 0.57 in Hanyu's favour and this I agree with. That step sequence is pretty darn amazing. For the 3A, Hanyu got 0.86 more in GOE, which is pretty legit, and I wouldn't have argued if the difference was even larger.

The interesting part is next and is a continuation of my earlier post. It also may serve as a large part of the "explanation" you're looking for:
The difference in extra points (meaning factored GOE and second half bonus) for Machida's 4T and Hanyu's 3Lz combo, not including the -1 deduction is 1.25 in Hanyu's's favor. With the -1 deduction, the difference is 0.25 in Machida's favor. Had Machida gotten all -2's and Hanyu all -3's, it would have been 1.05 in ,again, Hanyu's favour. Surprising, I know. But completely legitimate per the rules. Then the whole factored GOE comes into play again, when we add up the GOE for Machida's lutz and Hanyu's 4T. Machida got lower GOE on his lutz (because it's harder to get high GOE on "easier" triples than it is quads) and when factored, he got 0.8 GOE. Had it not been factored, it would have been 1.14. Hanyu, on the other hand, got high GOE (whom some say could have been higher- I say 2.0 is fine) on his 4T. That isn't factored lower - he got the full GOE and therefore 2.0 GOE points. That's a difference of 1.2 points due to doing better on an "easier" triple as opposed to a quad. And this is where a big chunk of the TES difference comes from.

TL;DR: it's better to do very good on higher GOE factoring elements like quads and 3A's, and then totally screw up lower factoring GOE elements like a 3Lz than it is to do
mediocre high GOE factoring elements and then do well on a 3Lz.

Edit. It seems samson said it first while I was typing this whole thing up lol. Here's an analysis though.

hahah and I think this isn't even the first time in this thread where we both have explained the same thing. I think it's ok though, sometimes it's helpful to have two different people explain the same concept.

 

[Red Helicopter]

Both jumps in Hanyu combination was rotated. Machida 3T after quad was URed but somehow they not marked this in protocols

I suppose you wouldn't argue against scoring even if Hanyu got for this combination just -1 from most of judges and even 0 from someone...

 

[lavender]

^When Hanyu is on he's just that good. I don't think Tatsuki has that x factor yet... even when he's on. It's all a little paint by the numbers to me. It's been well constructed, but it doesn't feel authentic. Hanyu is very in the moment. I think it makes him less reliable, but there's a certain intangible. It wasn't taught to him, it's something he just understands.

I totally agree..

and I also miss Chan's skating...

 

[HanDomi]

I'll break it down, point-by-point:

Hanyu’s spin base values: 9.7.
Hanyu’s spin GOEs: 2.72
Total: 12.42

Machida’s spin base values: 9.3
Machida’s spin GOEs: 2.06
Total: 11.36

Advantage: Hanyu by 1.06

Hanyu’ step sequence base value: 3.9
Hanyu’s step sequence GOE: 1.5
Total: 5.4

Machida’s step squence base value: 3.3
Machida’s step sequence GOE: 0.93
Total: 4.23

Advantage: Hanyu by 1.17.

Hanyu’s 3A: 9.35 base value (2nd half) + 2.43 GOE = 11.78
Machida’s 3A: 8.5 base value + 1.57 GOE = 10.07

Advantage: Hanyu by 1.71.

Hanyu’s solo jump (4T): 10.3 base value + 2.00 GOE = 12.30
Machida’s solo jump (3Lz, 2nd half): 6.6 + 0.80 GOE = 7.4

Advantage: Hanyu by 4.9

With all those taken into consideration, Hanyu has a lead of 8.84 over Machida. Now let’s look at the jump combinations:

Hanyu’s 3Lz-3T (2nd half, with fall) = 11.11 base value - 1.9 GOE (with the high and low scores dropped out, he had five -3’s and two -2’s) = 9.21.
Machida’s 4T-3T = 14.4 base value - 2.14 GOE (with the high and low scores dropped, he had six -2‘s and one -3) = 12.26

Advantage: Machida by 3.05

So now Hanyu’s lead in TES is cut down to 5.79, and that’s where the difference comes from. Also consider this: the TES scores don’t show the 1.00 deduction Hanyu got for the fall, which is added at the end of the program. It's up to you whether or not you think the GOEs they got were justified.

Amazing job you've done

 

[cruzceleste]

I'll break it down, point-by-point:

Hanyu’s spin base values: 9.7.
Hanyu’s spin GOEs: 2.72
Total: 12.42

Machida’s spin base values: 9.3
Machida’s spin GOEs: 2.06
Total: 11.36

Advantage: Hanyu by 1.06

Hanyu’ step sequence base value: 3.9
Hanyu’s step sequence GOE: 1.5
Total: 5.4

Machida’s step squence base value: 3.3
Machida’s step sequence GOE: 0.93
Total: 4.23

Advantage: Hanyu by 1.17.

Hanyu’s 3A: 9.35 base value (2nd half) + 2.43 GOE = 11.78
Machida’s 3A: 8.5 base value + 1.57 GOE = 10.07

Advantage: Hanyu by 1.71.

Hanyu’s solo jump (4T): 10.3 base value + 2.00 GOE = 12.30
Machida’s solo jump (3Lz, 2nd half): 6.6 + 0.80 GOE = 7.4

Advantage: Hanyu by 4.9

With all those taken into consideration, Hanyu has a lead of 8.84 over Machida. Now let’s look at the jump combinations:

Hanyu’s 3Lz-3T (2nd half, with fall) = 11.11 base value - 1.9 GOE (with the high and low scores dropped out, he had five -3’s and two -2’s) = 9.21.
Machida’s 4T-3T = 14.4 base value - 2.14 GOE (with the high and low scores dropped, he had six -2‘s and one -3) = 12.26

Advantage: Machida by 3.05

So now Hanyu’s lead in TES is cut down to 5.79, and that’s where the difference comes from. Also consider this: the TES scores don’t show the 1.00 deduction Hanyu got for the fall, which is added at the end of the program. It's up to you whether or not you think the GOEs they got were justified.

Wow, thank you very much, I coulnd´t do this if my life depend on it