2014 Cup of China Free Dance 11/08

[dorispulaski]

To me, Anna and Luca's exhibition was in much better shape than either their SD or FD. I wonder whether their competitive programs have far too little mileage on them at this point? Have they had a busy off season exhibition schedule?

 

[bramweld]

To me, Anna and Luca's exhibition was in much better shape than either their SD or FD. I wonder whether their competitive programs have far too little mileage on them at this point? Have they had a busy off season exhibition schedule?

Anna looked very pale to me. Maybe they were injured or ill or both? Maybe they just wanted choreography that was more sophisticated? But that is not Marina's forte in my book. She is good mind you, but her choreography requires her skaters to have absolutely fabulous skating skills or musicality to pull it off. Going to Christopher Dean or Lauzon or Krylova would have done them more good. Case in point H/D, P/C and G/P. The only other problem is that they are not the strongest teams technically so they needed an environment that would have given them a good balance of both these areas. Tough call.

 

[Ice Diva]

To me, Anna and Luca's exhibition was in much better shape than either their SD or FD. I wonder whether their competitive programs have far too little mileage on them at this point? Have they had a busy off season exhibition schedule?

The CBC commentators said they started on their programs quite late this season, so must be too little mileage.

 

[GGoldberg]

I am beyond disappointed in the Shibs. This was their moment to make a move and they faltered. Maybe they need to spend more time on the ice and less on social media

What an incredibly mean-spirited and nasty thing to say, especially when it comes with no basis.

Just about every quote from any skater who has ever trained alongside them (ranging from Ryan Bradley when they were still novices, to Davis/White and Virtue/Moir who trained with them for years) has always referenced how hard they work, and their exceptional work ethic.

The fact that they put effort and creativity into social media is in my opinion a gift to fans (some of whom don't deserve it). It shows effort beyond what the majority of skaters do to help share their experiences with fans and hope to generate interest beyond mean-spirited critics who casually populate chat boards.

 

[Mrs. P]

What an incredibly mean-spirited and nasty thing to say, especially when it comes with no basis.

Just about every quote from any skater who has ever trained alongside them (ranging from Ryan Bradley when they were still novices, to Davis/White and Virtue/Moir who trained with them for years) has always referenced how hard they work, and their exceptional work ethic.

The fact that they put effort and creativity into social media is in my opinion a gift to fans (some of whom don't deserve it). It shows effort beyond what the majority of skaters do to help share their experiences with fans and hope to generate interest beyond mean-spirited critics who casually populate chat boards.

Aw, I know you mean well in defending them, but FWIW, the poster you quoted is also a fan (as referenced in an earlier post), so the post was not trying to be nasty but rather just expressing concern as a fan.

FWIW -- their BV difference was only 0.5. (36.00 at Skam v. 35.50 at COC) They actually got the level 4 on the twizzle sequence, which they didn't get at Skate America. They lost 1.5 points on rotating lift. They got level 4 at Skam and it went down to level 2 at COC. They need to work on upping the level on their step sequences (level 2 and 3 at both competitions) and dance spin (level 2 at both comps).

Basically the difference, contrary to what some thought, was in the lower +GOE. They got some 10.34 points at SkAm and about 7.52 points at COC. This makes sense given their tentative performance, their elements were not as sharp. Had they got the same level of GOE at this competition as they did at Skam, they would have gotten enough to win.

I chalk this up to nerves and think they will learn from it.

 

[chloepoco]

What an incredibly mean-spirited and nasty thing to say, especially when it comes with no basis.

Just about every quote from any skater who has ever trained alongside them (ranging from Ryan Bradley when they were still novices, to Davis/White and Virtue/Moir who trained with them for years) has always referenced how hard they work, and their exceptional work ethic.

The fact that they put effort and creativity into social media is in my opinion a gift to fans (some of whom don't deserve it). It shows effort beyond what the majority of skaters do to help share their experiences with fans and hope to generate interest beyond mean-spirited critics who casually populate chat boards.

 

[lavender]

Regarding Papadakis/Cizeron...for the first time in awhile the man is more striking to me. It's usually both or just the woman. I couldn't take my eyes off of Cizeron. His posture is the die for.

 

[slider11]

I keep reminding myself that the Shibs are 20 and 23. That's young in the ice dance world. Davis and White had many oopses in their late teens/early 20's. It really wasn't until the Olympic year and Meryl was just 23 and Charlie 22, that they took off. Tessa and Scott were a little younger but not much. I do wonder, though, if the Shibs need more technical attention to get those levels more consistent. Maybe Marina needs to strengthen that aspect of her team. My guess is that Charlie is encouraging them to hang in with Marina. But Meryl and Charlie and Tessa and Scott had the advantage of Marina and Igor. They may have been oil and water in personality but they made for one tasty combo with their teams!

 

[Matt K]

In the arena I would say IZ and PC were the fastest and PC had a lot of nuances. PC also looks to have deeper edge than the Shibs. Very deserved win. The Shibs' program lost steam in the second half. You just can't have one very overused waltz going through the whole program. Even the lay viewers lose interest..

Thank you. Great to hear you attended the event live. P/C looked the most polished of the top 3 and also the most mature by far. They also were the only team in the top 3 with proper choreography who actually tried to interpret the music.

C/L's FD looks terrible, due to Zoueva's choreography and the bad performance of it. They just can't skate it. Some of it (most of it) is way too fast for them. Their move to Zoueva reminds me of their short-lived stint to Zazoui in the last quadrennial of 2010. Only problem is, this time, who are they to move to after this season? Igor will most likely not take them back, so will they continue on their downward spiral with Zoueva & the Shibutanis? They may just have committed career suicide. We will confirm after this season.

P/I's FD is absolutely dreadful. I could not believe Camerlengo / Krylova would give them such a basic, juniorish open program with cheesy non-transitions so I had to google who the choreographers of this program, and lo and behold, it was not them. This program was made by Dubreuil/Lauzon. Oh my. Watching this was like pulling teeth. Worse thing is, I think a junior couple could do this music more justice than P/I. And this is the danger of letting anyone do your choreography.

Why were there only 7 judges instead of 9?

I think the marks, especially the SD, are much too high in all the Grand Prixs so far.

 

[Alba]

Thank you. Great to hear you attended the event live. P/C looked the most polished of the top 3 and also the most mature by far. They also were the only team in the top 3 with proper choreography who actually tried to interpret the music.

Loved the french. They are very talented and they have the two most beautiful programs of ALL teams, IMO.
Love I&Z SD a lot as well. I guess I'm in love with Najarro.
The thing I like about him that he has done two beautiful Paso with completely different feelings and style. I would add H&D as well, but they are not in top form yet.

Loooooove P&C FD. noidont is right, full of nuances and with a beautiful music. It felt classical, elegant but very modern. Just gorgeous.
They have two wonderful vehicles and they can aim for the podium at Worlds. It's theirs to lose, IMO.

 

[semosk8tfan]

What an incredibly mean-spirited and nasty thing to say, especially when it comes with no basis.

Just about every quote from any skater who has ever trained alongside them (ranging from Ryan Bradley when they were still novices, to Davis/White and Virtue/Moir who trained with them for years) has always referenced how hard they work, and their exceptional work ethic.

The fact that they put effort and creativity into social media is in my opinion a gift to fans (some of whom don't deserve it). It shows effort beyond what the majority of skaters do to help share their experiences with fans and hope to generate interest beyond mean-spirited critics who casually populate chat boards.

Wow, you call ME mean? Pot calling the kettle black. I am a Shibs fan and want them to be US no 1 very badly but for whatever reason be it nerves, training, coaching, they didn't get the job done here. They have the talent to have won in China and by not doing so I fear they may be cementing their place as no2.

And thanks Mrs P for your comment

 

[Ice Diva]

I used to be a participant in an online poetry workshop. We had one member who understood technique--metrics, rhythm, rhyme, etc--probably better than anyone else in the workshop, but the actual poetry he wrote wasn't particularly noteworthy. It always seemed to be dead on the page; it lacked a certain inspiration; it didn't, as I always thought, lift me as a reader into its world. Even the best technique isn't enough.

Right now, I would say the I/Z FD wasn't particularly an engaging program, at least for me. It felt like manufactured drama, a lot of sound and fury signifying not all that much. It lacked inspiration. It didn't "lift." I think a large part of the problem for me is that Ruslan recedes into the background too much. And I suspect that is going to be an ongoing problem for them. But we shall see.

:agree: love the poetry reference btw. I feel the same way about I/Z's program - definitely manufactured drama & little connection at this point.

 

[BlackPack]

I haven't deeply analyzed I&Z. I've seen some S&K's summer performances, and those two have chemistry, unlike I&Z. Lena overwhelms the other guy. Lena and Nikita had a very teenage vibe to their partnership. S&K seem like a man and a woman in love. That's just my take.

I'm sick of Zoueva try to turn her female ice dancers (Cappellini, Sinitsina, etc) into Tessa 2.0. Same hand gestures, sweetly forlorn looks, pastel costumes, etc.

I think C&L are completely capable of difficulty. They may not be the most naturally talented, but they rise to the occasion when necessary. I don't think the choreography was beyond their ability. If they can handle Igor, they can handle just about anything else. And it's Zoueva, so the difficulty can only go so far I'm glad skaters are making mistakes early in the season. Who knows, C&L may end up on the podium again. Their programs are good enough IMO. In CoC, they slipped and had trouble re-grouping. I think that's the main reason rather than their lack of ability.

I appreciate W&P's Four Seasons more and more. Again, it's their trademark style of subtlety that grows on you. However, they really could have stayed away from another overused piece of skating music. I don't know if it's WOW enough to win the gold. I certainly hope they're not going to be silver medalists again and again, the way they were 4th for so many years

 

[Matt K]

We have not seen Sinitsina yet, aside from the one exhibition number they performed several months ago. By that fact, we can also say Zoueva is trying to turn Davis into "Tessa 2.0" judging by their Rachmaninoff exhibition number:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uD62t0tlcM

Or "Say Something" :disapp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JHH88Y-UJg

Or the sweet forlorned look ending in "Notre Dame De Paris":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGgH-AvxExw#t=5m09s

So it seems that Zoueva is desperately trying to turn Davis, Cappellini, et. al. to Tessa 2.0.

The more I watch C/L's FD again, the more it looks like D/W, especially Anna's feet and edges. The biggest similarities to V/M I see are her hairstyle and dress. However, their skating looks extremely like D/W at times (like the step sequence) it is uncanny. Look at their edges. Doesn't this transition part remind one of D/W's FD? I have time-stamped it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvtM_47xxi8#t=3m51s Where have we seen this before :think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvtM_47xxi8#t=3m42s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvtM_47xxi8#t=1m32s : This part was taken exactly from D/W going into their own step sequence. Zoueva has used Davis's quirks, like the tiny hops and man lifting the woman all throughout C/L's FD. It is uncanny.

Also, the judges need to dial down the marks on the SDs in all grand prixs. We do not need to see un-Paso Pasos getting 9s in PCS and scores just shy of 70.

 

[elif]

Their programs are good enough IMO. In CoC, they slipped and had trouble re-grouping. I think that's the main reason rather than their lack of ability.

Problem is not just a fall. They lost short dance too.

 

[Skater Boy]

C andL imho always looked vulnerably. Technically not as strong and artistically as we can tell they aren't naturals. I am so surpised to see world champs in such bad shape andheld up so much. I do think they will improve or retire. NOt sure if Zueva was the best choice for this team though - I guess they wanted to hold to the title but I did wonder ifthis team could be like those team that win a medal and then fall down the ladders. Not to e mean spirited ut not every team or skater can be a multi world titles and such. They won - barely - easily coud have lost to Weaver and Poje. While I am sure they had some offers they were for the world title not the olympics. They clearly were a tier or two down from D and W and V and M. I will be curious to see what they do. It seems both Shibs and C and L will want Marina to fix them.

 

[BlackPack]

We have not seen Sinitsina yet, aside from the one exhibition number they performed several months ago. By that fact, we can also say Zoueva is trying to turn Davis into "Tessa 2.0" judging by their Rachmaninoff exhibition number

IMO Zoueva's career has been about reviving the magic of G&G and now V&M and trying to impose this ideal/wish on skaters who don't have the same talent and style; other skillsets and styles can be equally compelling under the right guidance, but Marina seems stuck in the past. I wish to see more creativity. Had Marina and Igor stayed together, they can still do the programs such as Samson and Delilah, Mahler, Pink Flyod, etc. It's such a shame that this kind of team, aligned by the stars, broke up due to some internal politics.

As I mentioned before, C&L probably mistakenly thought they were technically OK and now they want artistic breakthroughs that will keep them the World title. That "artistic breakthrough" is simply Tessa 2.0 with weak edges, because, as many have already pointed out, Zoueva isn't a technical coach.

Yes, C&L lost the SD to the Shibs by 3 points, but the Shibs always had more obvious natural talent than C&L. C&L simply had better programs for the past few years, while the Shibs were/are in limbo. But the Shibs were at one point only behind D&W and V&M. That's how technically solid they were. I don't see the shame in being behind the Shibs, since their SD was good. For once, Marina did good work for them.

I still think it's possible for C&L to be close to the podium. If some other couple(s) bomb, they can still climb on the podium again when they've mastered these programs later in the season.

 

[bramweld]

IMO Zoueva's career has been about reviving the magic of G&G and now V&M and trying to impose this ideal/wish on skaters who don't have the same talent and style; other skillsets and styles can be equally compelling under the right guidance, but Marina seems stuck in the past. I wish to see more creativity. Had Marina and Igor stayed together, they can still do the programs such as Samson and Delilah, Mahler, Pink Flyod, etc. It's such a shame that this kind of team, aligned by the stars, broke up due to some internal politics.

As I mentioned before, C&L probably mistakenly thought they were technically OK and now they want artistic breakthroughs that will keep them the World title. That "artistic breakthrough" is simply Tessa 2.0 with weak edges, because, as many have already pointed out, Zoueva isn't a technical coach.

Yes, C&L lost the SD to the Shibs by 3 points, but the Shibs always had more obvious natural talent than C&L. C&L simply had better programs for the past few years, while the Shibs were/are in limbo. But the Shibs were at one point only behind D&W and V&M. That's how technically solid they were. I don't see the shame in being behind the Shibs, since their SD was good. For once, Marina did good work for them.

I still think it's possible for C&L to be close to the podium. If some other couple(s) bomb, they can still climb on the podium again when they've mastered these programs later in the season.

This. If Marina is not careful, she will soon find her work eclipsed by Lauzon and his team. Their work has been steadily gaining my interest. How ironic though that Nikita would run to Marina. I really believed she and Igor together were unstoppable. They were THAT good. Apart everything has changed. Who would have thought a good young French team could beat the once technically savvy Shibs and WC C/L? Never a dull moment in ID.

As for I/Z, I find their chemistry refreshing, it is tender and natural not forced. This suits them at this point in their careers as the have a very fresh young look. S/K look more mature due to their physical build. I/Z are embarking on a style all their own. I cannot say how often I've reviewed their performances. These dances will only improve in time. Those twizzles, clean twice in a row. Bodes well for them.

 

[Alba]

The more I watch C/L's FD again, the more it looks like D/W, especially Anna's feet and edges. The biggest similarities to V/M I see are her hairstyle and dress. However, their skating looks extremely like D/W at times (like the step sequence) it is uncanny. Look at their edges. Doesn't this transition part remind one of D/W's FD? I have time-stamped it:

I agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvtM_47xxi8#t=3m51s Where have we seen this before :think:

I think the Shibs also are using the same lift that D&W did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5SKP0doS0M&list=UUpmadplEROgHA_9m0Cse1Gg
Maia's legs though not as streched as Davis and therefore it looked a bit ugly to me.

 

[MarieM]

I love Anna and Luca, but to compare their lack of edges to what D&W were doing is just wrong.